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4Vforever

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4Vforever last won the day on May 2 2017

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    1973 Q code, C6 auto, 3.25 traction lock,
    gold glow, ginger interior, A/C, pwr/steer/windows/disc brakes, etc

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    Australia

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  1. NO DRONE!! Now That is very interesting and as you say cheap (ish). Nearly 40% on our Canadian dollar ups it a bit, but still worth considering. Thanks for your input. None what so ever, then again I've always designed my systems to eliminate drone. The biggest problem is people put too big of a pipe on for their application. Most people don't want to believe what size pipe will handle X amount of power. The bigger is better thought transfers over to pipe diameters way too often. The amount of times I've seen twin 2 1/2" systems on 350 even 400+ HP engines then complain about drone is laughable. I've even met people that don't even realise what drone is as they think that's how it's just meant to sound. Nothing better than having the top down on the vert and hearing that proper V8 sound and tap the pedal,and it just sounds like a V8 should. The old mufflers were some Turbo thing as that's all it had stamped on it and sounded fairly good, but the aero chambers are something better again. As for exchange rates it's something I know all too well about for the last 25 years and on top of that the shipping costs to Australia aren't cheap either. Not much we can do about it but to just grin and bear it and either buy what you want or don't. Or there's always buy the same parts here from our stores and pay at the very least 20% more than bringing it in. It's a no brainer to me
  2. On my 73 Q code vert I'm running Hooker Comp headers, 2 1/4 pipes H pipe and a pair of Summit brand Aero Chamber mufflers. No drone just a great real V8 sound and as the revs increase the sounds just keeps sounding better without being overly loud. I've had people ask what I'm using as the really like the sound. When I tell them they cant believe such a cheap and easy system sounds that good. I got onto these mufflers through a mate of mine when he needed some cheap mufflers on a car he bought in the US to drive around in. He ended up liking the sound so much they're still on the car today. They're a very well made piece and look just like the Hookers and quite a few people I know have been using them and are very happy with them These are the type we use, in fact my exhaust guy was so impressed with them and now uses them as well. https://www.summitracing.com/int/parts/sum-630160/overview/
  3. Another for Jones cams. Contact Mike as he really knows his stuff and some of his cams have produced some outstanding results, even surprising the engine builders themselves, check him out here http://jonescams.com/ Bullet is also another good source or also as has been stated Brent at Lykins motorsports is another great source. If you don't want to splash out on a custom grind, I've had some really good results with Howard's cams for OTS stuff. As for lifters all of the budget street series hydraulic roller lifters including, Comp, Lunati, Howard's, etc are all made by Morel but overseas. It's only their high dollar range of hydraulic roller lifters that are only made in the US. Been using Crane Hydraulic roller lifters for years without any dramas. Both Crane and Crower and others are made by the company that now owns Jonson lifters and like had been said no real problems with either of those brands over the years.
  4. The only reason I can think of in the huge difference in the prices for basically identical car would be the last Mustang ever built with a big block would have to be it. While the first with a 429 holds some appeal, the fact is previous Mustangs were built with big blocks. But having the very last of something special ever made (like the last ever BB Mustang) will always have a premium price. But the huge gap between them is still a bit of a head scratcher though, considering it was the first ever built with a 429 and the only year the engine was factory installed in a Mustang.
  5. Unfortunately, like every other performance engine built, there is no set tune for a 2Vcc headed Cleveland engine either. It's all about finding that sweet spot that actually works for your engine. They still like plenty of initial timing I've found, around the 12-16* mark and while some engines may want 34-36* or even more total advance, others may want 28-32* total advance, usually all done by 2800-3200 RPM. Same with plugs some like the standard heat range plugs while other engines want them colder and with the ignition set up use a distributor and coil that throws out decent spark and use good quality leads with as little as possible resistance. Also a carb around the 750 CFM in whatever style you want, vac sec or DP works fine for any decent 2V engine, but have had some decent success years back with 700 DP Holley. Also stick with a dual plane like the performer or even the air gap unless you intend on really spinning the engine, but I get the feeling we're talking about street engines here and even if some strip work is intended, stick with the air gap. To answer the vacuum advance question, I don't find them necessary, but it depends on the owners driving requirements to whether I use one or not. For high performance engines I never use distributors with vacuum advance for obvious reasons like locking out the distributor and running convertors with high stall speeds. As for timing curves and tuning of the ignition set up, it's all trial and error doing it yourself, but I like to start with 12* initial and keep the standard extra 20* of mechanical advance for a total of 32*. If no pre ignition then simply step up the timing and if you do have some pinging then try a colder plug by one or even two heat ranges first, this is the reason I use cheap spark plugs for this process instead of forking out more than I have too, to find the heat range I'm after before buying the good spark plugs. With the carb stay with the factory settings or if you have a good running carb stick with it and change nothing as this gives you a base to work with, but work one thing at a time, either timing (firstly) then carb (unless it's extremely lean) to find that sweet spot as changing too many things at once will not show you what's working better to give you the best outcome. But make sure the distributor is in good working order first without any excessive play in the shaft and things like the rotor and cap are in good order and same with the coil, make sure it throws out a good strong purple/blue spark and not a weak yellow/orange spark as any tuning will be useless with problems here. As for chamber work it's not so much opening up the chambers, but blending and radiusing what's there that gives the best results, in fact one little mod was found to not pick up anything on a bench, but at the track it did. I'll need to dig out a 2Vcc head and show what needs to be done how and where as trying to describe it would cause confusion. Remember the 2Vcc head was never designed as a performance part, but rather just a bread and butter 302 2 barrel (4barrel from mid76) engine thats chambers was just designed for achieving 9:1 compression in them. The best thing to help with valve shrouding is to keep the valve at, or as close as possible to standard sizes, another thing we found over the years. We knew from the start a 4V intake was too big for a 2V (even 4V) head so cut them down to 2.12 then 2.1 for quite a while as it worked very well, but when we stepped down again to a 2.07 we found even better gains. We tried the standard 2.05 valve and worked quite well too, but the 2.07 intakes were more easily available back then. We also used a 4V exhaust valve as it was common knowledge that and short side radius work was all that was needed for the exhaust. It was the same time when 2.1 intakes and 4V exhuast valves had a shortage, so with the 2.07 intake valve we tried a 2V exhaust valve. That showed everything was fine with a better intake to exhaust bias, so we just kept using 2V sized exhaust valves after that. Anyway all, sorry but I'm absolutely buggered from the last two days of work and starting to doze off, so I'll get back to it tomorrow and hope whatever I've written this evening makes sense. If not let me know and I'll get back to it tomorrow. Thanks
  6. Buy a timing tape made by either Moroso or Mr Gasket to suit. They had them years ago, but haven't needed to buy one in years as Romac balancers are marked the full 360 degrees.
  7. I've been known to build the odd one or two Cleveland with 302 Cleveland closed chamber heads. Actually I've built that combination many times in all forms from tow vehicles to street, street/strip to all out race engines from drags to circuit and even burnout engines. Flat tops, dish tops and even domes, stock stroke, increased stroke, decreased stroke, wet sump, dry sump and running on pump, avgas, LPG or even methanol, with all sorts of carb/s and intake set ups. In fact years ago the main staple of high performance Clevelands here in Australia were 2V cc headed engines as 4V heads were hard to get hold of and expensive, plus all the magazines back then were telling everybody that the 2V heads were heaps better, unless being an all out drag engine, lol. In fact I remember a magazine article over 25 years ago (would have it hidden in my junk somewhere) where they asked some of the best engine builders in the country about Cleveland builds. All but one said the 2V heads were the only way to go, the one that said 4V's is a very renowned Sprintcar and circuit engine builder and one I trusted his word back then, plus my old boss knew him as he use to build Sprintcar engines as well, back in NZ. We had a good formula for street, street/strip Cleveland builds from when I started as an apprentice in the late 80's and kept developing more power as time went on. There's still quite a few decent HP factory cast iron 2V headed engines running around over here in the high 600 to mid 700 HP naturally aspirated, but as aluminium heads become more affordable people are moving away from factory cast iron heads to the better flowing aluminium heads of CHI, AFD and Scott Cook (3V/ 4V style only on the SC) but there's those that still love seeing how far they can get with them. As for detonation, well fuel plays only one part in the overall scheme of things. Tuning and things like spark plug heat ranges and ignition curves as well as getting you carb right is what helps with detonation. We have 98 Ron octane rated fuel over here which is roughly your 94 and there's plenty of 11:1 and even higher compression cast iron engines 2V engines running on it without detonation issues. There's a lot more 2V headed street engines over here than all the other heads combined. One of the main reasons are price, personally I've never paid more than $50 for a virgin pair of 302 2V heads, in fact I'll hunt down a complete virgin 302 Cleveland for $150-$200 as stock bore Cleveland blocks are getting harder to find. Another old trick was using 302C rods and Pistons to suit. I've personally never had a detonation issue with any Cleveland engine be it 2V or 4V open or closed chamber, get the tuning right and you should not have any problems. As for dynamic compression ratio, that's an interesting subject that seems to be getting more confusing than answers. I belong to another (small) forum which contains a lot of different engine people from a wide variety of back grounds (not just racing) which was formed as they wanted somewhere to discuss and share ideas without the "know alls" getting involved and having nothing constructive to say (no arguments which I love) In fact that site and this one are the only ones I really post up on as the other ones I look at are full of know alls, know F alls. I have actually had been thinking of DCR lately and a discussion had already started on that site when I went on for a look one night. Unfortunately I can not say too much about any of the discussions on that site (one of their stipulations) but one thing that did come from it that I can't see a problem with mentioning was, if DCR is the be all and end all on engines performing, than how did the muscle car engines back then manage to run without dramas. These were fairly high comp engines with smallish (by today's standards) camshafts and also where's the factory data on DCR's. There is none only static compression ratios. To be honest I'm still on the fence with it, but some of the discussion on it is very enlightening to say the least and has really got me thinking. One thing though was years ago building engines we never thought of DCR and knew what static comp you could get away with Super lead fuels (as we had it here until the end of 95) and what sort of cam it took to be suitable for the build. Look at cam catalogues and their cam recommendations state what static compression ratio is needed, not what DCR it's going to give you. Even when I fully understood what DCR is, I still bring it up on the high side or even over where it's not supposed to be suitable and have managed to have the engines run great without detonation issues. I'd really love to be able to post up what's been discussed on there, but I like being on there too much to loose it, plus the bloke that nominated me to be on there would really be pissed at me. So yeah, I've built hundreds of flat top piston with single valve relief, 2V cc headed Cleveland engines over the last near 30 years, of all types and detonation has never been a problem when everything is sorted. In saying that too, my 2V cc engines have never had an unmodified combustion chamber either, as they need some reworking to get the most out of them, but compression has still been at 10.5:1 minimum. Also they've all had some reworking in the intake throats as a minimum and on the bigger HP stuff the ports are also done, but don't increase the port size. Intake vales are no bigger than a 2.070 and exhaust valves are standard 2V 1.65 with only the short side radius needing any work on the exhaust ports. Anything else I can help with, just ask or PM me.
  8. No real trick, I just loosen off the nut on the long thread so the J hook on the end pops out of the hole, undo the bolt that holds the hold down piece across the battery to the bracket on the inner guard and remove the entire hold down. Then undo terminals and take them off then you right to remove the battery. When I had to replace the battery that was in my car, the battery was a bit bigger than the one in it now and the top radiator hose was slightly in the way. I just took off the radiator cap and nudged the hose to give me enough clearance to get the battery out. Mines a 351 4V car, but can't imagine it being too much different to a 429 equipped car as it sounds just like my setup with the threaded rod close to the top radiator hose. If need be maybe loosen the top hose and remove that side only from the radiator and kink it back to give you the clearance you need to get at everything. Make sure the battery you get works before putting the battery clamp back on and fully tighten it. Should do the trick.
  9. If you're needing to do your carb from scratch with adjustable air bleeds and multi stage emulsion and going to billet metering blocks and throttle plates, then going the Quick Fuel route is probably the best and cheapest way around it. Plus the Quick fuels are all aluminium construction as well which is not only lighter, but helps with fuel temperatures as well. As you stated you can sell your carb to help offset the costs. While I'm a huge fan of Quick Fuels, I'm an even bigger fan of a carb that works properly and does its job properly. In fact carb technology keeps changing so much lately it's Interesting keeping up with it all. I've actually just been having experience with a couple different types of Holley's lately that have really piqued my interests back to Holley, but for the money Quick Fuels are hard to pass up on. So if you don't see exactly what you're after on the QF site like the black diamond with annular boosters, then as I said contact them and they'll give you exactly what you're after. Also other things you'll need to decide on are the body type, choke horn or HP style, if going for a choke electric or manual choke and vacuum or mechanical secondaries. Also as I said earlier if it's just a pure street engine and no further mods are going to be done than a 750 would be OK, but if any sort of racing or further mods are wanted down the track then an 850 would be the best, as either way it will still need to be tuned. This is why during the design stage of the engine I make sure that's what the customer is after, then before the actual build itself starts I make absolute sure that no other mods are planned down the track before any parts are ordered. I've seen it and heard it where I've done rebuilds, then a few months down the track where their minds have changed and wished they listened to me the first time and built it to handle further upgrades as they're now up for a whole heap of new parts. It's the reason my own personal build is way overkill for its first incarnation. I just want you to pick the right carb for not just your needs now, but in the future as well. Just tune by the plugs and keep an eye on them around town driving too. With the extra features of modern carbs like adjustable air bleeds and emulsion, getting a better fuel curve is even more achievable, it just requires more tuning by reading the plugs at different parts of the rev range and dialling in the all the adjustable pieces to suit and even PV's and pump cams can have an impact on this as well.Another thing to make sure of is the ignition curve as it all plays a part in the engines overall tuning parameter. For me though I just tune to what the plugs tell me and has worked for me this way for over 15 years. Let us know what you decide on and keep us informed how it goes and if need be plenty of people on here to help get it right.
  10. As I said previously and as others have as well, why not just have your carb built to suit. Annular boosters are good and are usually used on circuit racers running carbs, especially on tight tracks. Your carb can be converted to annular boosters or look into these mini annular booster like I'm going to try for street duties , here's the link http://www.ebay.com/itm/Holley-QFT-AED-CCS-2300-4150-2-4-BBL-Mini-Annual-Booster-160-12-Hole-/171350913785?hash=item27e54f72f9:g:hO0AAOxyjzNRGBLQ&vxp=mtr If a new carb is what you really want, then as I said earlier it depends on what you want from the engine and its use. If you want it just as a pure street car then a 750 would be fine, but on engines like these I prefer them to have more CFM and an 850 is what I'd be recommending. One of my main reasons for this though is nobody just sticks with what they have and go about upgrading, so it's better to have a carb capable of taking the upgraded mods later on and tuning it to suit the engine now, then spending more money on carbs as well when upgrading. If you want it tuned for street duties then you must be prepared to loose some of the overall power to get it. Another decision is a throttle body with a choke tower or one with the better flowing HP style throttle body. As I said also, the people that drive on the street and race, mostly will have a different tune for the track and tune it there accordingly. I've also known of others that have a totally different carb and even distributors they bolt on at the track for racing then bolt the street ones back on when the night is over. Also if you contact Quick Fuel you can have any carb built the way you want, black diamond with annular boosters in whatever throttle body configuration you want. As for widebands, I was given some of the best advice ever regarding them by one of the best builders and racers in the country I worked for. I was one of those people trying to get it spot on and it would drive me crazy not being able to get it exactly where I wanted it. So one day I asked him how he goes about it and his answer actually surprised me. He said sell it to somebody else and tune it to the plugs as the plugs don't lie. He'd been down the exact same path trying to get A/F ratios perfect and in the end said to himself, why. If the engine is running right and is burning properly at peak RPM then it must be right. He also said after going back to doing it that way his times were in fact better. Obviously a street engine different, but when it's a high performance street engine of course there's going to be richness somewhere if you're chasing ultimate power from it. So I've never used one since. I personally know of a 406 SBC that's had that many different people (some very well known in the industry) and a heap of different carbs or different mods on it trying all types of ways of tuning it that the best it's ever ran is when I tuned it by the plugs. Of course it's going to be rich somewhere, but he says it runs great and it's now even using less fuel than it's ever had. To say he's pissed at spending all that money on widebands, different and modifying carbs and many different experts and dynos would be the biggest understatement ever. After I tuned the engine and he had it going for a few weeks he actually rang me to apologise for not listening to me at the start. Thing is I'm not a tuner, I'm a machinist/engine builder by trade. It's one of the reasons I'm not really into chassis dyno BS, just engine dyno as a base just after when the engine has been built. So as I said as pure street engine and no further mods going to be done, then go for a 750, but if some strip action or upgrades in the future, then the 850 makes sense now. Either way the carb is going to need to be properly tuned to suit your application.
  11. Great find Ray and thanks for posting it up. I love reading or listening to stories of owners back in the day with these types of cars. When there's pics to accompanythem makes it even better. I can sit there for hours listening and have from the everyday bloke that had a muscle car back in the day to workshop and race car mechanics to the drivers themselves that drove them on the track. These were truly great times and obviously will never happen again as the government needs to protect us from ourselves. Unfortunately for me I was born too late to experience it all, but remembering being a kid in the 70's and riding around in these now old cars and loving the sounds, smells and the feel of the vinyl seats and being burnt by them in the middle of summer. Even being crammed in the back of a station wagon with my uncle (only 2 years older than me) and all the luggage for a 5+ hour road trip to take my grandparents back home, hold great memories for me. Well I did try once to get that experience of driving these cars back in the 70's but only got as far as going through a brick fence down the bottom of a big hill. My parents still like to remind me of that, lol. Again thanks for posting this up Ray, I can never get enough of this stuff.
  12. Depends on what you really want from the engine as to which carb you really need. Also do you want a choke or the better air flow of a HP style throttle body. No matter what though performance engines want fuel and tuning a carb to be 100% street friendly on a high performance engine is near impossible. A choice needs to be made, tune it for all out street or all out performance there is very little in between. This is why most guys that drive engines like this on the street tune their carbs at the track to suit what they're after and after they've finished, tune them back for street duties again. This is the reason why I go for things like quick change fuel bowls to make things easier. Some people I know of are lazy and run the same tune for the street and track, but it's about the only time the car is driven on the street though is to the track. With modern carbs though tuning can be made a lot closer than it could be previously, but still it's either still tuned for all out power or street duties and even trying to find a happy medium will still be rich as no matter what, the engine still wants that fuel for the top end. Tuning for pure street duties then don't keep the boot into it at high revs as leaning out kills parts real quick. I've actually found AED carbs to be very good, in fact I put one on a 347 Windsor a few months ago and it was near spot on out of the box. Of course it needed a bit of tuning still, but there's not a carb yet I've pulled out of the box and it was absolutely spot on. So personally I'd be tuning your existing carb to what you really want from it. I've also used a couple of the QF Q series on street strip engines pretty successfully as well, but as I said they're tuned to suit where they're running also, either street tune or strip duties. The first incarnation of my new build is not going to make the power levels of your engine, but I'm going to be using an 850 Q series that's been heavily modified and probably flows over 900 CFM, but will be tuned to suit. With things like multi stage emulsion and changeable air bleeds, tuning it to where I want it is a whole lot easier than it was years ago. Yes its finicky and a pain in the rear, but in the end will be worth it. In fact instead of changing out emulsion jets at the drags, I'll just change out the entire metering block to make life easier. So as to your question which one, it's all up to what you exactly want from your engine. Something in the 800-850 CFM range is what I think in a engine like this, but if you want it purely as a street engine then a 750 or even a 780 CFM carb is what I'd be looking at. As I said you need to decide exactly what you want from the engine.
  13. The D3 4V heads are indeed 78cc as everyone I've encountered has been and Fords own literature backs it up, the earlier D1 4V heads had the 76cc chambers. Best way to compensate for the intake port misalignment is to mill the heads intake face instead of the manifold. Setting up intakes to mill each side is very time consuming and much easier to mill the intake face, plus if you change intakes in the future there no need for to mill it and makes the intake you pulled off easier to sell as it hasn't been milled. As for rockers if using a hydraulic (as has been stated) if using the standard type rockers, no need to change anything (as long as the parts are in good order) just buy a shim kit that Crane or Ford Racing make and shim up the rockers to achieve correct lifter preload. If going to a bolt on type roller or converting to adjustable valve train, then pushrods may need to be changed to achieve correct rocker geometry. The "thumbprints" on each corner and in the middle on the exhaust side are approximately .060" and is the factory's recommended limit for milling. I've seen Cleveland heads milled at least.020" past that limit on all out race engines without any problems. As for piston to valve clearance using cams with even fairly decent duration you'll be fine, but like anything when building an engine, check everything just to be on the safe side.
  14. Well if you can get the 750 for free then grab it. As for the rebuild, give it a go as they are a very simple carb to build and you can check everything anyway, especially any excess play in the throttle shafts which can play havoc trying to tune it. There's plenty of advice not just here to help you if need be, but would be plenty on the net also. Heaps of people do the 600 CFM carb thing and it's fine if you just drive it, but if you like giving it a workout every once in a while, then the 600 will come up short. When I replaced the 600 Edelbrock carb when it crapped itself with a new 750 vac sec Holley (nobody had a QF in the country at the time) the difference was more than just noticeable performance, but in fuel usage as well. The economy from my vert from when I first got to now is night and day, but took a few parts and some tuning to get it where it is now. Going to interesting the difference between the engine in it now and the 398 I'm building now. Just doing my part to help with "climate change"
  15. Absolutely the 4300 at 605 CFM was well and truly undersized for a 4V Cleveland. One thought on the reason for such a small carb was so people couldn't over rev the engine as I haven't seen or speaking with those that had these engines from new could not get them to rev past 5800 RPM and 6000 RPM would be absolute maximum and a smaller carb on the engine is cheaper and easier than fitting rev limiters to every car fitted with a 4V engine. The small carb looked after the engine for warranty purposes by allowing it to rev too high, hence why Ford sold so many 780 Holleys for these engines back in the day to those wanting to unleash the potential from a 4V. If the carb wasn't too small on the closed chambered 4V engines, then why did the Ford engineers go for a 4300D rated at 715 CFM on all open chambered 4V engines. The old it's bigger so it's got to use more fuel is just a myth. If the carb meters the fuel better and makes a better mixture, which in turn makes better power across the board with less fuel delivery needed. The 4300 was designed back in the 60's when fuel was cheap and economy wasn't an important factor when purchasing a performance car, whereas modern carbs take not just power, but some sort of economy as well. I have a good friend of mine with a really nice car collection of all makes and engine sizes, the only modified engine is in his Impala which makes just under 600 HP. He swears it's the most economical car out of the lot, a 406 SBC with a modded 850 is more economical than 60's/70's vehicles that are all standard, everything from station wagons to muscle cars to luxury barges that are kept well serviced and looked after better than himself. Since I replaced the valve springs and tuned it, not only does it go heaps better and harder, but the fuel usage is better again. The reason why I only use a dyno as a baseline when the engine is fresh and not as a tuning tool, as a dyno is only as suitable as the conditions at the premises and not where the car actually is being used. Holley carbs are a very basic carb to build and a very straight forward. As long as the throttle shafts aren't worn, then a kit and a can of carby cleaner and compressed air is basically all that's needed to rebuild one. If the shafts are worn either have them bushed or buy a new throttle plate. Unless the carb is cheap or even better free, then buy a new one with warranty, as other problems like a casting fault in the metering block can ruin your day after doing the rebuild. Trust me chased those problems too many times over the years, thank god for billet metering blocks and throttle plates.
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