Jump to content

Melted wire (pics included) DBElectrical mini-starter


rutkak
 Share

Recommended Posts

Gurus,

 

Any idea what would cause my 12V starter wire to melt? I had it zip-tied to the negative starter cable and every spot where it was touching it is melted and had exposed wires. The negative starter cable is untouched.

 

Background: This is a DBElectrical mini-high torque starter that I've had in my 72 coupe for 2 or 3 months. I noticed in the last 2 or 3 times on the road it was not starting as quick as normal...typically when I stopped briefly and it didn't cool down. I figured I had carburetor drama but it wasn't until I inspected the cable that I saw it was tore up.

 

I had since installed a 6 gauge wire in it's place (yes, 6 gauge) just in case the electrical gremlims are having a field day. No other wires on my solenoid are bad (coil, electric fan, etc).

 

Any ideas what could have caused this mess? I'm pretty confident all the grounds in my car are good to go.

 

-KR

 

329032593_MeltedWire3.thumb.jpg.dd2edc02731b0f157cbc1b7f063b7482.jpg

1125863987_MeltedWire2.jpg.090c4eb7dcf90b7b7030b856ca7707d3.jpg

26374300_MeltedWire1.thumb.jpg.ad990a75d42fce543c52bd48f3ad3e91.jpg

-Former 70 & 72 Mustang Owner.

-69 Torino GT, Formal Roof, 351W, Edelbrock 600 cfm, Edelbrock 351W Performer RPM intake, headers, AOD trans, dual flowmasters w/H pipe, Pertronix II Billet, 3.5 TRACLOC g/r, 15" Magnum 500s, 100A alt, aluminum radiator, electric fan, Pro-car seats, mini-starter...owned since Dec 13.

-70 Mach 1, 351W, Edelbrock E-Street EFI, VHX instrument cluster, Hooker headers, dual flowmasters, Pertronix II, 15" Magnum 500s, 150A alt, aluminum radiator, dual electric fans, Pro-car seats, mini-starter

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Don,

 

The cable that is melted in the pictures is either a 12 or 10 gauge cable and it comes with the mini-starter. It's definitely not very heavy duty. I went to Lowe's and got the 6 gauge cable (thick) and autozone to get the eyelet ends for it. I would have preferred an 8 gauge cable, but Lowe's didn't have any and I thought 10 gauge was about what I had melted already.

 

Not sure why it melted. The only thing out of the ordinary on my car is a 100 amp single wire alternator, electric fan and Pertronix III ignitor in a standard dizzy.

 

Ken

-Former 70 & 72 Mustang Owner.

-69 Torino GT, Formal Roof, 351W, Edelbrock 600 cfm, Edelbrock 351W Performer RPM intake, headers, AOD trans, dual flowmasters w/H pipe, Pertronix II Billet, 3.5 TRACLOC g/r, 15" Magnum 500s, 100A alt, aluminum radiator, electric fan, Pro-car seats, mini-starter...owned since Dec 13.

-70 Mach 1, 351W, Edelbrock E-Street EFI, VHX instrument cluster, Hooker headers, dual flowmasters, Pertronix II, 15" Magnum 500s, 150A alt, aluminum radiator, dual electric fans, Pro-car seats, mini-starter

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I'd agree that wire looks far too small. and as far as it being bare where the zip ties were, thats just because of the extra tension on the wire from the ties and not related to the wires failure.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Rule of thumb. 14ga-15 amps, 12ga-20amps, 10ga-30amps, 8ga-45amps, anyway you need a 2ga from battery negative to frame and the same from positve to solenoid and solenoid to starter.

Those pictures also demonstrate a very good likeness of why you never put the positive on the battery until you test for shorts. That's what your shorted wires will look like.

2rr7aiv.png

 

Just cruising along minding our own business when BAM!!! The LAWS show up.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Was that the main feed wire or the solenoid trigger wire? If it was the solenoid wire, was it zip tied to the main hot wire for the starter or was it actually zip tied to a GROUND? Never tie hot wires to a ground, it's asking for a major short if the insulation wears through.

 

If that was the main power feed to the starter, then it was woefully undersized.

1973 Mach 1 Q code 351 4V, 9A paint, standard interior, 3.50 rear, C6 trans.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Pretty much what everyone else has said, That is definitely way too small. I would do what Mark suggested..return that 6ga and get a 2ga solenoid to starter cable and all will be good to go.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

When you buy your wire look at the ends. There should be at least a hundred or so individual small wires all twisted together. The more small wires the better it can carry the load without the heat. That's why welding leads have about a 500 super small individual wires twisted together in 1 insulation sheild.

2rr7aiv.png

 

Just cruising along minding our own business when BAM!!! The LAWS show up.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

That should only be the switched source for the solenoid. I have been running a DB Electric starter for 5 years or so with no issues. Are you sure you have it connected to the correct post on the starter? Call DB Electric and talk to them about it.

73 conv. 460, D0VE large valve heads, Performer RPM manifold, Voodoo 227/233 cam, Holley 950 HP carb, C6 trans, 3.25 trak-loc.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

When you buy your wire look at the ends. There should be at least a hundred or so individual small wires all twisted together. The more small wires the better it can carry the load without the heat. That's why welding leads have about a 500 super small individual wires twisted together in 1 insulation sheild.

 

This is only true with alternating current, grid or house power. Eddy currents push the electricity to the outside of the wire so wire with more surface area, I. E. stranded, conduct with less resistance, which produces heat. Direct current, battery, on the other hand travels through the whole wire so will conduct just as easily through solid wire as stranded.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Gentlemen,

 

Too answer a few questions:

 

The red wire that melted is what I what call the trigger wire. It was the additional wire that I ran when I replaced my stock starter. There are two wires coming from the starter. The original, I'm guessing 2-4 gauge wire to the nagtive side and the new additional red wire going to the 12V side of the Solenoid. The additional red wire is what melted.

 

These two wires were zip tied together and tracking that a bad idea. Hell, I used the zip ties that came with the starter.

 

OMS, WILCO on the vehicle wire. I'll see what they have locally at Autozone. The 6 gauge I bought is pretty thick, industrial stuff, but tracking your comment that it is insulated differently.

 

Caspian, my timing is a 10 or so BDC so it should be spot on.

 

Tommy, I'm very certain I corrected it to the correct post on the starter. I've been using it for several weeks without issue.

 

The attached pic is from DBElectrical's website. Notice the red wire that comes with the starter. I sent them an email with the melted pics to explain they could be selling equipment that poses a hazard. They have not replied yet but I'll post their reply when I get it.

 

-KR

[attachment=15131]

-Former 70 & 72 Mustang Owner.

-69 Torino GT, Formal Roof, 351W, Edelbrock 600 cfm, Edelbrock 351W Performer RPM intake, headers, AOD trans, dual flowmasters w/H pipe, Pertronix II Billet, 3.5 TRACLOC g/r, 15" Magnum 500s, 100A alt, aluminum radiator, electric fan, Pro-car seats, mini-starter...owned since Dec 13.

-70 Mach 1, 351W, Edelbrock E-Street EFI, VHX instrument cluster, Hooker headers, dual flowmasters, Pertronix II, 15" Magnum 500s, 150A alt, aluminum radiator, dual electric fans, Pro-car seats, mini-starter

Link to comment
Share on other sites

That starter has it's own solenoid - were you also using the factory solenoid too?

 

That is like a GM starter

You would have battery power to the solenoid and a ignition wire to activate the solenoid - ground would thru the block

 

As both wires were pos battery power 1 constant and 1 switched -

wire tying them together should not have been an issue.

 

Don

Link to comment
Share on other sites

That should only be the switched source for the solenoid. I have been running a DB Electric starter for 5 years or so with no issues. Are you sure you have it connected to the correct post on the starter? Call DB Electric and talk to them about it.

 

How is yours wired to the batt? Got pics?

Thanks.

spacer.png

Link to comment
Share on other sites

That should only be the switched source for the solenoid. I have been running a DB Electric starter for 5 years or so with no issues. Are you sure you have it connected to the correct post on the starter? Call DB Electric and talk to them about it.

 

How is yours wired to the batt? Got pics?

Thanks.

 

10 gauge wire from ignition side of solenoid to small post on starter. 2 gauge wire from battery side of solenoid to large stud on starter. There is a third stud on the starter but nothing is supposed to go to it.

 

I'll see what I can do for pics.

 

Edit: Here is a pic of the solenoid. Pic of starter is tough with the big block and headers.

 

photo_zps5424c8c2.jpg

 

The red wire on the right side of the solenoid with the blue shrink tubing is the switched source that goes to the small lug on the starter. You can see the positive cable on my battery which is black (I know it should be red and may be confusing) goes to the left side of the solenoid. The other heavy black wire you see going from the left side of the solenoid is power to the starter (I know, confusing).

 

HTH

73 conv. 460, D0VE large valve heads, Performer RPM manifold, Voodoo 227/233 cam, Holley 950 HP carb, C6 trans, 3.25 trak-loc.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I have mine wired with a jumper from the main battery cable terminal at the starter to the start terminal on the starter solenoid (approximately 2" long). When you turn the key the stock start wire energizes the original solenoid on the apron which in turn energizes the starter and solenoid at the same time. I hope this makes sense.

[align=left]Jeff T.

 

When I die I want to die like grandpa, peacefully in my sleep... not screaming, like his passengers. [/align]

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Gentlemen,

 

Too answer a few questions:

 

The red wire that melted is what I what call the trigger wire. It was the additional wire that I ran when I replaced my stock starter. There are two wires coming from the starter. The original, I'm guessing 2-4 gauge wire to the nagtive side and the new additional red wire going to the 12V side of the Solenoid. The additional red wire is what melted.

 

 

NO! There is no negative side to the starter! That large cable hooks to the positive side of the battery, at the starter solenoid. Starters ground through the engine.


I have mine wired with a jumper from the main battery cable terminal at the starter to the start terminal on the starter solenoid (approximately 2" long). When you turn the key the stock start wire energizes the original solenoid on the apron which in turn energizes the starter and solenoid at the same time. I hope this makes sense.

 

Do you have any problems with your starter staying engaged after you let go of the key? You're not supposed to jump the solenoid like that on a PMGR starter as it can cause it to stay engaged after the key is released.

1973 Mach 1 Q code 351 4V, 9A paint, standard interior, 3.50 rear, C6 trans.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Totalled,

 

Roger on no negative side, while facing the starter solenoid I was referring to the right side of it.

 

-KR

-Former 70 & 72 Mustang Owner.

-69 Torino GT, Formal Roof, 351W, Edelbrock 600 cfm, Edelbrock 351W Performer RPM intake, headers, AOD trans, dual flowmasters w/H pipe, Pertronix II Billet, 3.5 TRACLOC g/r, 15" Magnum 500s, 100A alt, aluminum radiator, electric fan, Pro-car seats, mini-starter...owned since Dec 13.

-70 Mach 1, 351W, Edelbrock E-Street EFI, VHX instrument cluster, Hooker headers, dual flowmasters, Pertronix II, 15" Magnum 500s, 150A alt, aluminum radiator, dual electric fans, Pro-car seats, mini-starter

Link to comment
Share on other sites

That should only be the switched source for the solenoid. I have been running a DB Electric starter for 5 years or so with no issues. Are you sure you have it connected to the correct post on the starter? Call DB Electric and talk to them about it.

 

How is yours wired to the batt? Got pics?

Thanks.

 

10 gauge wire from ignition side of solenoid to small post on starter. 2 gauge wire from battery side of solenoid to large stud on starter. There is a third stud on the starter but nothing is supposed to go to it.

 

I'll see what I can do for pics.

 

Edit: Here is a pic of the solenoid. Pic of starter is tough with the big block and headers.

 

photo_zps5424c8c2.jpg

 

The red wire on the right side of the solenoid with the blue shrink tubing is the switched source that goes to the small lug on the starter. You can see the positive cable on my battery which is black (I know it should be red and may be confusing) goes to the left side of the solenoid. The other heavy black wire you see going from the left side of the solenoid is power to the starter (I know, confusing).

 

HTH

 

Could the large pos cable go straight from the battery post to the starter lug and eliminate a potential amperage drop at the solenoid? Would still need a cable from the pos battery post to the solenoid though.

spacer.png

Link to comment
Share on other sites

 

How is yours wired to the batt? Got pics?

Thanks.

 

10 gauge wire from ignition side of solenoid to small post on starter. 2 gauge wire from battery side of solenoid to large stud on starter. There is a third stud on the starter but nothing is supposed to go to it.

 

I'll see what I can do for pics.

 

Edit: Here is a pic of the solenoid. Pic of starter is tough with the big block and headers.

 

photo_zps5424c8c2.jpg

 

The red wire on the right side of the solenoid with the blue shrink tubing is the switched source that goes to the small lug on the starter. You can see the positive cable on my battery which is black (I know it should be red and may be confusing) goes to the left side of the solenoid. The other heavy black wire you see going from the left side of the solenoid is power to the starter (I know, confusing).

 

HTH

 

Could the large pos cable go straight from the battery post to the starter lug and eliminate a potential amperage drop at the solenoid? Would still need a cable from the pos battery post to the solenoid though.

 

It is essentially doing just that. Current is not going through the solenoid. The solenoid was simply a convenient place to hook the two cables together.

73 conv. 460, D0VE large valve heads, Performer RPM manifold, Voodoo 227/233 cam, Holley 950 HP carb, C6 trans, 3.25 trak-loc.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Based on the pictures Tommy K provided I see that I had the thicker gauge on the ignition side (right side as you face it) of the solenoid. I'm sure it's hooked up to the starter at the proper location but I definitely had the lighter and heavier cables flip flopped.

No doubt that's what caused my cable to melt. Thank you for the pic Tommy, it clears up the problem.

-Former 70 & 72 Mustang Owner.

-69 Torino GT, Formal Roof, 351W, Edelbrock 600 cfm, Edelbrock 351W Performer RPM intake, headers, AOD trans, dual flowmasters w/H pipe, Pertronix II Billet, 3.5 TRACLOC g/r, 15" Magnum 500s, 100A alt, aluminum radiator, electric fan, Pro-car seats, mini-starter...owned since Dec 13.

-70 Mach 1, 351W, Edelbrock E-Street EFI, VHX instrument cluster, Hooker headers, dual flowmasters, Pertronix II, 15" Magnum 500s, 150A alt, aluminum radiator, dual electric fans, Pro-car seats, mini-starter

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I have mine wired with a jumper from the main battery cable terminal at the starter to the start terminal on the starter solenoid (approximately 2" long). When you turn the key the stock start wire energizes the original solenoid on the apron which in turn energizes the starter and solenoid at the same time. I hope this makes sense.

 

Do you have any problems with your starter staying engaged after you let go of the key? You're not supposed to jump the solenoid like that on a PMGR starter as it can cause it to stay engaged after the key is released.

 

It does take a split second to stop. How does running a seperate wire from the solenoid make a difference? Maybe I need to do a little re-wiring.

[align=left]Jeff T.

 

When I die I want to die like grandpa, peacefully in my sleep... not screaming, like his passengers. [/align]

Link to comment
Share on other sites

It was explained to me, that the spinning down of the motor can act like a generator, and keep the solenoid engaged late. Since those starters use the solenoid to throw out the bendix, it stays engaged. I made that mistake when I first put one in my BroncoII. I ran the separate wire and it quit hanging.

1973 Mach 1 Q code 351 4V, 9A paint, standard interior, 3.50 rear, C6 trans.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Good to know, I'll need to get a length of wire and rework the wiring.

 

Thanks,

[align=left]Jeff T.

 

When I die I want to die like grandpa, peacefully in my sleep... not screaming, like his passengers. [/align]

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Join the conversation

You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.

Guest
Reply to this topic...

×   Pasted as rich text.   Paste as plain text instead

  Only 75 emoji are allowed.

×   Your link has been automatically embedded.   Display as a link instead

×   Your previous content has been restored.   Clear editor

×   You cannot paste images directly. Upload or insert images from URL.

 Share

  • Recently Browsing   0 members

    • No registered users viewing this page.
×
×
  • Create New...