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What goes into a 460 swap?


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I know this is probably a continuation of previous threads, but I think it would be worth putting together on one thread. As most 71'-'73's came with small blocks (and big block swaps seem to be more and more popular) I thought it would be good to get everyone's input on this particular swap.

What goes into removing a small block and swapping in a 460 based motor? What are the best mounts to use? Is there even an option or is there only one? How easily will this fit under the factory hood? Will there be any issues with the accessories fitting (power steering, A/C, etc..)? Is there clearance for valve covers with the power brake booster? Will there be an issue changing spark plugs or do I need to take the engine half apart to do so?

I have been sent some private messages on this matter (which I do appreciate). But I would like to hear from everyone about their experiences and "what not to do's". Thank you everyone in advance..

Mike

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The only thing that has given me problems is my tall t- handle valve cover bolts and the power steering gear box with the headers ... but that was because I was being cheep, with the proper mounts it would fit fine.

2cossj6.png

97 F150: wrecked, 96 Dodge 4x4: blown motor / donated to the base

88 Suburban 4x4 355 cid 8 inch lift: sold, 95 Celica 5 speed : sold

68 F750 391 cid : sold,  96 F350 7.3 diesel dually : sold

86 Chevy 1500 305 cid c1500: sold, 73 Mustang mach 1 466 cid 5 speed : under construction

89 F350 4x4 cummins swap : sold, 64 Dodge d600: gone

00 Excursion: traded, 72 Mustang mach 1 302: scrapped

73 Mustang coupe: scrapped, 73 ranchero gt

06 Honda crf 450x : sold, 04 Honda vtx 1800

88 Bronco xlt lariat: sold, 76 Charger: traded

95 F350 4x4: sold , 91 Crown Victoria 302: sold

02 Dakota: traded, 96 f250 powerstroke: parts truck

87 f700, 98 e350 powerstroke: sold

03 land rover: traded, 95 f350 dually: part out

95 f350 dually: traded, 94 f150 4x4: traded

97 f250: sold, 76 Maverick 302: sold

91 240sx rb25: sold, 86 firebird: sold

86 Trans Am: sold, 88 westernstar: sold

89 dodge d350: sold, 2000 Dakota 4x4: sold  

84 f350 3+3: sold, 90 bronco: partout

67 catalina, 64 chevy c60

64 jeep j200, 74 corvette stingray

79 Lincoln mark V, 2013 f350: goldilocks

 

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What would be the best option for mounts if I was going to run either shorties or at least mid-length headers?

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What would be the best option for mounts if I was going to run either shorties or at least mid-length headers?

 

Here's a pic of my 429/460 car which the prior owner did the swap on..was a 302 car..I have all the receipts part #'s he used..I havn't detailed the engine compartment yet but I will..

He used crites motor mounts & tranny mount..c-6 ..hooker full length headers..changed from power steering to manual..Manual disk drum setup..

101_0261.thumb.JPG.e96f0ee605610452209460960d0887b2.JPG

LOVE OF BEAUTY IS TASTE..THE CREATION OF BEAUTY IS ART

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Nice. I see you went with a "pusher" fan instead of a puller. Is that because of the space available? How is the manual steering?

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I used the stock style frame stands, brackets and isolators from MU. If the car was equipped with an FMX the trans bracket will work, you just have to flip it around to work with a C6.

 

I used the stock cleveland 3 row radiator, as well as the fan (by enlarging the hole to 3/4") and the fan shroud which required a little massaging to get by the crank pulley.

 

Headers are FPA mid-length.

 

There isn't much to it.

 

With regard to the Crites swap kit, when I talked to them they said they were now only making solid motor mounts for this application. Might be a little rough for a street car.

73 conv. 460, D0VE large valve heads, Performer RPM manifold, Voodoo 227/233 cam, Holley 950 HP carb, C6 trans, 3.25 trak-loc.

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Nice. I see you went with a "pusher" fan instead of a puller. Is that because of the space available? How is the manual steering?

Manual steering is manual steering..Keeps the muscles in shape :D

The fan is a puller.. can be a pusher by reversing the polarity..

LOVE OF BEAUTY IS TASTE..THE CREATION OF BEAUTY IS ART

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The MU frame and block brackets are most likely Crites

Motor mount insulators are DCMR brand

I stock the motor mounts

 

Item #D1ZZ-6038

67-73 MOTOR MOUNT 390/427/428/429

Motor mount for 67-70 390/427/428 and 71-UP 429. Each, fits left hand or right hand. Price: $39.95

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Here is a photograph of the 472 (429 + 460 crank bored .060) installed in my 1973 Grande.

 

dr5zj8.jpg

 

For the most part, I simply utilized the parts that were available for a stock 429CJ/SCJ 1971 Mustang. Most of the substantive"modifications" (in my mind) were done in the internals of the motor, i.e. cam, roller rockers, pistons, ect.

 

I found "referring" to my application as a 1971 429CJ/SCJ to be especially useful when trying to source parts from different vendors to include Autozone, NAPA, etc.

 

 

BT

Do the RIGHT thing.

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Looks great.. Besides gas and tires, woukd you say there any drawbacks to a 429/460?

My main concern is fitting under the factory hood, being able to get to spark plugs and everything on the front fitting (pulleys, power steering, etc..

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that pusher fan looks like a trans cooler

2cossj6.png

97 F150: wrecked, 96 Dodge 4x4: blown motor / donated to the base

88 Suburban 4x4 355 cid 8 inch lift: sold, 95 Celica 5 speed : sold

68 F750 391 cid : sold,  96 F350 7.3 diesel dually : sold

86 Chevy 1500 305 cid c1500: sold, 73 Mustang mach 1 466 cid 5 speed : under construction

89 F350 4x4 cummins swap : sold, 64 Dodge d600: gone

00 Excursion: traded, 72 Mustang mach 1 302: scrapped

73 Mustang coupe: scrapped, 73 ranchero gt

06 Honda crf 450x : sold, 04 Honda vtx 1800

88 Bronco xlt lariat: sold, 76 Charger: traded

95 F350 4x4: sold , 91 Crown Victoria 302: sold

02 Dakota: traded, 96 f250 powerstroke: parts truck

87 f700, 98 e350 powerstroke: sold

03 land rover: traded, 95 f350 dually: part out

95 f350 dually: traded, 94 f150 4x4: traded

97 f250: sold, 76 Maverick 302: sold

91 240sx rb25: sold, 86 firebird: sold

86 Trans Am: sold, 88 westernstar: sold

89 dodge d350: sold, 2000 Dakota 4x4: sold  

84 f350 3+3: sold, 90 bronco: partout

67 catalina, 64 chevy c60

64 jeep j200, 74 corvette stingray

79 Lincoln mark V, 2013 f350: goldilocks

 

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Looks great.. Besides gas and tires, woukd you say there any drawbacks to a 429/460?

My main concern is fitting under the factory hood, being able to get to spark plugs and everything on the front fitting (pulleys, power steering, etc..

Again, this motor was a stock option on the 1971 Mustang.

 

Of course that was over 30 years ago, so obviously there are improvements if you are comparing them with what is available in the current Mustangs; so "drawbacks" are relative, in my mind.

 

If you want a Classic (1971 - 1973) Mustang with a period correct motor that is relative cheap to build with massive torque and horsepower, I believe the 429/460 motors are the way to go:).

 

BT

Do the RIGHT thing.

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Originally when I started to look for a body for a 429/460 engine I pretty soon realized that the ’71-’73 Mustang has one of the widest enginebay of unibody Fords and as mentioned above they were factory option 429 as Thunder Jet, Cobra Jet and Super Cobra Jet versions. That’s why I wanted for a ’71-’73 Mach. Once I found the body, I drove 50 miles with the 351c 4V, yank it up, sold it, bought a brand spanking new Ford Racing 460 cid from Friendsville Tennesee.

I did used the original 351c framemounts and OEM 429 enginemounts. Now thinking the engine sits probably little bit of higher than with the correct 429 frame mounts. If I would be now starting the swap I would do the swap with the readily available frame & enginemounts from MU.

 

What comes for your questions.

 

1) There are no issues with the factory hood with anything else than Victor Jr, Weiand Stealth and tunnelram’s. Victor Jr will fit but you must use very low aircleaner, Stealth is little bit lower than Vic Jr. I needed to cut the hood due to 4” aircleanerelement, 2” spacer, without the spacer and with lower profile aircleaner with Victor Jr you can go with stock Ram-Air hood without cutting the hood.

 

2) Valvecover & power brake booster clearance. Even with the tall 4 ½” Ford Racing covers there will be 1” or so clearance. No problem. If you go with lower profile covers the clearance gets bigger. There are several diffrent valvecover from Summit racing you can find 19 diffrent covers and then there are other manufactures that does not list at Summit like Blue Thunder Auto.

 

3) Changing spark plugs can be done without yanking the engine up. Plugwires you will need to remove though… I’ll use this kind of tool to open and to tightening the plugs – no issues at all:

http://www.summitracing.com/parts/wmr-w1129c/overview/

I mentioned earlier that it’ll take 45-60 minutes to change the plugs, plugs out, adjust the new caps and threw the new ones in that’s not breaking the sweat. You can do it faster.

 

4) Accessories, I did used 351c powersteering pump, alternator in the beginning, but ofcourse all the brackets are the 429/460 specific. I have now aluminium alternator brackets and the 429 montego power steering bracket. Now I have Volvo’s alternator and newer Ford plastic & aluminum power steering pump.

 

5) IMO your though of using the Ford Power Train Application headers is the best way to shoot for the streets. They’ll support very high hp rates and they are high quality headers with incredible fitment and huge ground clearance. If I would be now buying headers I wouldn’t hesitate to contact Ford Power Train.

 

6) If you want to go with the 429 Hooker Super Competition 2 1/8” primary headers you’ll bump in to oilfilter fitment issue, filter will be touching the #5 primary tube. Not good thing, so then you’ll need to get an adjustable leg (ford racing has them M-6880-A50) or go for remote oil filter location – makes easier to change the filter though… No fitment issues with FPT headers, this only the big 2 1/8” header problem. Big supercomps also needs to cut a hole to inner fender to the passengers side and remove one bracket from inside the fender.

 

7) To do. I would try to find 429/460 out of Cougar, Cyclone, Montego or which got all the bracketry. That way you would have all the necessary parts without the hassle or the joy of mocking them up.

 

8) To do. Buy a big radiator, the ’71-’73 enginebay is huge, it’ll swallow a massive radiator. Or just get a 429 comparable radiator. Use shroud.

 

To be honest an extra cost that may appear comes from the powertrain, since you can make fairly cheap a strong 429/460 cid engine, they’ll produce so much torque & hp that you may want to start upgrading your powertrain. With similar output 351w/351c you would also need to upgrade the powertrain anyway.

 

MPG. Whatever the engine is with f.ex. 500hp/500lb-ft will take some gasoline no matter how the power is done if the power is used. Prius 1.4 liter ecohydromaxboosthugatree with 500 hp is not a MPG monster. Making a n/a horsepower will need gasoline that’s for sure = power doesn’t came for free. My '72 Mach 1 with +580hp with 550 lb-ft of torque (I found the the dynochart) 460cid std stroke&bore, hydraulic flat tappet cam 244 in 254 ex 0.588” in and 0.614” exh = fairly stout hyd.flat.tappet , 4.11 gears with 28" tall rear tires 275/60-15 and manual TKO600 0,64 fifth gear. With this combination it is app. 2000 rpm on 60 mph. With 2000 rpm the big engine produces nice torque, you can overtake safely just by pressing the pedal on fifth gear and the engine just pulls away. If you change to third gear the rpm will raise from the 2000 rpm to 4000 and be carefull if you hit the pedal, it can still break the rear tires loose (don’t ask how I know - ooops).

 

I made it 14.7 MPG on highway with some hammering (120mph with fourth gear and few smoky lift offs - yet most of the time 60 mph and I still felt that the carb wasn't as tuned as it could be. In a traffic, idling in the city etc will make the MPG worst naturally but so it does with any engine.

 

Here are few pictures from my enginebay. I have 2 Flex-a-lite puller fans, March performance aluminium pulleys – no A/C here. Finnish summer is so short that no need for one… There’s a ¼” spacer between the waterpump pulley and waterpump’s flange, my alternator, powersteering were all lined up nicely but the waterpump was out of line for the v-belt, so it sticks little bit of further. Still I’ve got enough room for the fans placed between the engine and the radiator. By using the 429 specific parts you cannot go wrong, since they’ve been designed by the factory.

 

Here you can see the space between passenger shocktower, plenty of room to change the plugs. I even took the heads off with the cylinder head studs on the block, passenger side just popped off and on the drivers side I loosened up the masterbrake cylinder bolts and carefully bended the cylinder a little and the head came off.

 

01102011205_zps3b5fb1a2.jpg

 

 

Here’s the space between pulleys and fans.

Kuva134_zps85094f97.jpg

 

There are few goodies you get too with 429/460 engines. Make it 500 hp. You don’t need to search for high nodular big $$$ block, just get any 460 block or 429 block you can find, it can take 0.080” overbore (4.440”) without a sonic check, my friends Ford OEM 460 block was bored straight to 4.500” after it was sonic checked – now that’s not bad from an original Ford block. 429/460 does not need hard fill anything under 800 hp, at 800 hp it starts to see cap walk. Then it is time to make the block for 4-bolt mains, there’s enough material to do it without effecting to the rigidity of the block. All the marine 460 engines has the marine rods - A75 , they’re upgraded Cobra Jet connection rods, just get ARP bolts and you’re good to go. Crankcase can take 4.500” stroke crank, that combined to 0.080” over makes 4.440” bore and overall cid goes to massive 557 cid wit Ford OEM block. Look for a D9TE block so you can get already a 0.200” longer cylinders, they’ll support the long stroke engine pistons better, so it’s good block for stroker cranks and it is very common block, D9TE block was made from 1979 – 1997. Aftermarket blocks are available also and can be bored from 4.360” to 4.700” and they hp-ratings start from 1500 hp.

 

So aftermath, you can get very good bang for the buck to 500 hp / +500 lb-ft range with 429/460 cid. I guarantee that after few hundred miles you’re already thinking of getting more hp & torque. At that point, you’ve got all the aces left, stroke it, cam it, give it good set of heads like Jon Kaase P-51 heads and you’ve got there a big engine with good manners due to huge displacement.

 

Sorry for the long post... :blush:

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No apologies. That's great info. I appreciate it. Your cam 244/254 @ .050. So, that is fine for the street?

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No apologies. That's great info. I appreciate it. Your cam 244/254 @ .050. So, that is fine for the street?

 

Few things worth of mentioning.

 

As said many times before, the driver side is tighter due to masterbrakecylinder. Tall Ford Racing valvecover can be removed just by lifting off.

 

For the heads if you use OEM factory iron, then go for C8VE to D0VE (thunderjet) heads, they all have the small cc combustion chamber. Best score would be to found an engine from 1968-1971, then it’s got the small cc heads already. 500 hp with oem Thunder Jet heads is in reach easily, but I would give them little port job exspecially the exh. ports are terrible. I would not try 500 hp with D2VE = 1972 460 heads, but the guys are porting the D3VE heads successfully to support over 700 hp, so they got bigger combuston chamber though.

 

What comes for my Ford Racing C460 cam as I described above is in my benchmark is very streetable. I had enough vacuum to operate the powerbrakes, the engine idles 900-1000 rpm. Afterwards I have still installed an vacuum reservoir canister from Comp cams just to be sure to have vacuum in all cases for 2-3 brakings. It also looks cool… =) For 500 hp you can go with easyer cam, if you got enough heads to support the hp = the more streetable it is then.

 

In my benchmark this C460 is too streetable, I've been thinking of replacing the current cam with XR286-R10 mechanical Roller from comp cams or one of the Howard Cams baddest hydraulic rollers they've got. But first I want to see how much porting the heads affected for the behavior and maybe start thinking in autumn what cam I'll choose to make more hp and trying to find what is my limit for definition of streetable. Friend of mine had 472 cid engine in his ’73 Mach 1. It had 4spd nascar toploader, mechanical flat tappet cam, victor jr, Chuck Nyttens prepared carb etc. It made 684 hp on dyno with 472 cid and that thing was driven in the first two summers 6000 miles, only problem was that the Toploader broke and locked the third gear – fortunately the car stayed between the rails. I bet that my engine is very close to or beyond 600 hp now when the heads were ported. Only the heads are ported and a new coil since the ol’ one puked oils out. I don’t think that the coil will affect to performance, but the heads will. I will get the car to the chassis dyno later this summer, closest one is only 10 miles from my house.

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That's a lot of great information. Actually I've gotten a lot of info from a few people. I appreciate it. It sounds like I shouldn't have any problem with the 460 fitting my '73 Mach-1. I'm planning on using either a TKO-600 or a T-56 Magnum. Not cheap but I don't buy a car with the intention of ever getting rid of it. Forged axles I think are cheap insurance, so they will eventually find their way in my car as well. Im thinking of a Detroit TruTrac for the differential.

As for the motor, I saw I can get a mild stroker assembly with forged internals that will give me 500 CID. 500 inches with 9.5-10:1, your cam (244/254 @ .050") and a set of P-51 heads should give me more power than I will even need for a street car.

Thank you again everyone.


I looked at head options. Iron heads and all the machine work, valves, etc.. I think the P-51 heads are the better option.

I actually have an Edelbrock Torker intake (lower profile than the Victor). Would that be ok to use?

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Excellent posting FinMach, Thanks for going to the time and effort of sharing your experiences and thoughts on the big block process and outcomes...

Anything is possible, It just takes time and MONEY....

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I’m glad if if my experiences can help any of you.

 

For Cazsper, with 500+ cid P51 your way ahead of your original performance goal but excluding the Torker. With Torker II you would be ok, but with Torker you’re going to crimp the engine big time. Torker is way too small intake that’s for sure. It is ment for stock engine, not anyway to hiperf usage. Torker II is whole another animal. But no problem, you can anytime sell your Torker on www.460ford.com or at evil bay, e-bay is better probably since the 460ford guys knows not to buy the Torker for anything but stock engines.

 

I agree you 100 %, go with the P51's or Blue thunder or SCJ or good ported out A429:s, that's like saving money!!!

 

Forged internals are good to have but not mandatory in anyway at your hp goals. 500cid with P51 depending from the cam will produce nice hp / tq numers. Ford Racing 521 cid crate was with cast crank and it’s been taken to 700 to 800 hp without problems. Besides I’ve seen many broken forged cranks but not so many broken cast cranks… now wonder why???  Anyway, Forger crank is nice to have, but I wouldn’t buy one for 700 hp. Anyway, Scat has been better with quality than Eagle, that’s my 2 cents.

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Awesome. Thanks. The more I think about a 460 based motor, the more I think of a supercharged stroked Windsor. Not only do I like having the power, I'm wondering if the weight of the 460 would make the car handle like a truck.. Does anyone know how much a 460 with aluminum heads and intake compares to an all iron Cleveland (weight)? I know I can get 600RWHP with a 408w and 10lbs of boost pretty easily. But if I can get a 500 or 520 to handle the twisties while driving to the beach...

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the 460 w/ aluminum heads & intake rivals that of a stock 351c in weight

2cossj6.png

97 F150: wrecked, 96 Dodge 4x4: blown motor / donated to the base

88 Suburban 4x4 355 cid 8 inch lift: sold, 95 Celica 5 speed : sold

68 F750 391 cid : sold,  96 F350 7.3 diesel dually : sold

86 Chevy 1500 305 cid c1500: sold, 73 Mustang mach 1 466 cid 5 speed : under construction

89 F350 4x4 cummins swap : sold, 64 Dodge d600: gone

00 Excursion: traded, 72 Mustang mach 1 302: scrapped

73 Mustang coupe: scrapped, 73 ranchero gt

06 Honda crf 450x : sold, 04 Honda vtx 1800

88 Bronco xlt lariat: sold, 76 Charger: traded

95 F350 4x4: sold , 91 Crown Victoria 302: sold

02 Dakota: traded, 96 f250 powerstroke: parts truck

87 f700, 98 e350 powerstroke: sold

03 land rover: traded, 95 f350 dually: part out

95 f350 dually: traded, 94 f150 4x4: traded

97 f250: sold, 76 Maverick 302: sold

91 240sx rb25: sold, 86 firebird: sold

86 Trans Am: sold, 88 westernstar: sold

89 dodge d350: sold, 2000 Dakota 4x4: sold  

84 f350 3+3: sold, 90 bronco: partout

67 catalina, 64 chevy c60

64 jeep j200, 74 corvette stingray

79 Lincoln mark V, 2013 f350: goldilocks

 

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Here is a post i found frim another forum:

 

"I weighed mine before I installed it in my fairlane. Here is the stats.545 cid, aluminum super cobra jet heads, victor intake 1050 dominator, stock dist, flex plate, large starter, aluminum water pump,aluminum valve covers. weighed it on my old farm scale as I call it. It is accurate I checked with my weight on another scale. 576 lbs It is now a bit lighter I think, as I have added a meziere water pump and a small geared starter."

 

Definitely interesting. From what I've seen, it's not far from the weight of an all iron Cleveland.

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Here is a post i found frim another forum:

 

"I weighed mine before I installed it in my fairlane. Here is the stats.545 cid, aluminum super cobra jet heads, victor intake 1050 dominator, stock dist, flex plate, large starter, aluminum water pump,aluminum valve covers. weighed it on my old farm scale as I call it. It is accurate I checked with my weight on another scale. 576 lbs It is now a bit lighter I think, as I have added a meziere water pump and a small geared starter."

 

Definitely interesting. From what I've seen, it's not far from the weight of an all iron Cleveland.

 

This has been here before.

Moottorienpainovertailu11.jpg

 

Weight of the BB goes along with the 545 cid weight, by thinking that the 545 cid has the 4.500” stroke crank – now compare it with std. 429 crank and you get the difference. Just something to ponder, think a heavy A460 sportsman block you’ve got thick cylinders, if you’ll go with 0.060” overbore (4.420”) you will have thick cylinders enough to go to +4.600”. This might sound funny, but there is tens of pounds of weight lying in the cylinders – I mean you can calculate it if you wish. Thats not the case, just food for your thoughts. Won't work with 351c but with the thich cylinders of 429/460 it can be considered as a good thing to have.

 

Awesome. Thanks. The more I think about a 460 based motor, the more I think of a supercharged stroked Windsor. Not only do I like having the power, I'm wondering if the weight of the 460 would make the car handle like a truck.. Does anyone know how much a 460 with aluminum heads and intake compares to an all iron Cleveland (weight)? I know I can get 600RWHP with a 408w and 10lbs of boost pretty easily. But if I can get a 500 or 520 to handle the twisties while driving to the beach...

 

You are thinking that a supercharged Windsor to make better weight ratio… you think that the supercharger weights nothing? Typical procharger kit weights 40-50 lbs with the main unit, brackets, pulleys and carb hat, add a intercooler with piping and it’s not going to get any lighter. Basically it moves the weight to up and front of the vehicle – that does not improve the handling. Add a blower, you get COOL looks and you don’t need to apply a Procharger decals to your fenders cause everyone can see the huffer coming through your hood. It’s also a heavy puppy and the weight goes up and front – not good. Add turbo or two, you'll get heavy and extremely hot pieces to your enginecompartment, plus you need to make headers to turbos, from the turbos pressure side to the carb/efi intake what ever your gonna use. Then exhaust pipes from the turbos to lead the hot gas out of the engine compartment - that is a huge net of HOT pipes - they heat your engine compartment pretty good. I sold my last set of BBF turbo headers last week to be installed & modified to '65 4DHT Galaxie with 460 cid. i decided not to chop my shocktowers and not to weld Mustang II-type suspension - too much work, too little time to do it.

 

Anyway the planning of the engine is one of the nicest parts on any project so keep the thoughts coming.

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  • 3 years later...

I apologize for bringing this thread back up. When it comes to intake manifolds in a 460 based motor, it looks like I am confined by intake manifolds that will fit under the factor hood. I was thinking of an Air Gap intake. It this won't likely fit will it?

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  • 1 year later...

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