Does This Carb Have Vacuum Secondary?

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Joined
Feb 29, 2012
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SoCal
My Car
73 Mustang Convertible
Born an I-6, spent the teenage, 20 and 30 years as a 302, but at 40 will reach full potential as a 351C.
I have an interest in purchasing this model carb,

http://www.ebay.com/itm/1970-1971-FORD-MUSTANG-BOSS-302-351-HOLLEY-CARBURETOR-6129-D1ZF-9510-VA-CARB-/200945992991?ssPageName=ADME:B:SS:US:3160

but being a newbie do not know how to discern the following:

1. I do see this is a hot air choke. I think I got this correct.

2. I do see a vacuum pod behind the choke. Is this for vacuum secondaries? If so, where is the vacuum stem?

3. Unfamiliar with the difference between a carb made for an automatic and one made for a manual. Can anyone tell me which trans this carb goes with.

Muchos Gracias

 
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1: yes you are correct.

2: It does have vacuum secondaries and I think it gets the vacuum internally where it mounts to the main body of the carb, if I remember right.

3: I don't see a kickdown lever so I think its for a manual. It would look something like this for an auto.
510-20-49-1.jpg


You can convert it to have the kickdown shaft and it isn't to hard to do.

Hope this helps, I don't know a heck of a lot so somebody can correct me if I'm wrong.

 
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The secondaries operate off the vacuum produced in the primary venturi, not manifold vacuum. There is an orifice in one of the primary throttle bores called a "primary venturi pickup" which "sees" this vacuum. The increased vacuum which occurs as the primary throttle blades open moves the diaphragm in the vacuum pod which results in the movement of the secondary throttle blades. When the diaphragm moves and by how much is controlled by the secondary diaphragm spring.

 
No kick down arm on that carb. All Boss 302's and 351's were manual..

Yes, hot air, easy to convert to electric.

What tommy said on the vacuum secondaries.

For that kind of money, unless you solely wanted the part and list number bragging rights, you could by a hell of a new holley carb.

 
For that kind of money, unless you solely wanted the part and list number bragging rights, you could by a hell of a new holley carb.
Me, brag????

I am at several disadvantages here.

1. I have wanted a carb such as this for a while. It matches up to my motor and manifold.

2. I am not a carburetor guy as I have only swapped one out, so I asked the questions to be careful.

3. I have an automatic now, but dream of a 5 speed OD in the future.

4. I am also torn as this isn't really a "daily driver" kind of a carb, and my car will be a daily driver.

5. I agree it is too much money. But, at least now I am prepared with the information I need for the next one I see.

 
For that kind of money, unless you solely wanted the part and list number bragging rights, you could by a hell of a new holley carb.
Me, brag????

I am at several disadvantages here.

1. I have wanted a carb such as this for a while. It matches up to my motor and manifold.
You have a 302 boss? Or just want a holley for some your motor? Wrong carb for a 351 boss and our years even if dated so

 
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Ford offered the 750 Holley vacuum secondary carb (I think officially it was labeled a 735) and aluminum version of the factory intake as service parts. It was not offered on an "out of the factory" car, some were likely dealer installed, I would think. My friend runs this combination on his 72 Mach 1 stock eliminator racecar.

Hey James, you really have to WANT an original carb for that kind of money. It looks kinda rough IMO and who knows if it's been butchered or left to rot somewhere along the line. Holleys are known for warped main bodies from overtightening the float bowls and cracked base plates from overtightening.

 
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Ford offered the 750 Holley vacuum secondary carb (I think officially it was labeled a 735) and aluminum version of the factory intake as service parts. It was not offered on an "out of the factory" car, some were likely dealer installed, I would think. My friend runs this combination on his 72 Mach 1 stock eliminator racecar.

Hey James, you really have to WANT an original carb for that kind of money. It looks kinda rough IMO and who knows if it's been butchered or left to rot somewhere along the line. Holleys are known for warped main bodies from overtightening the float bowls and cracked base plates from overtightening.
To be clear, I have 351 Boss block and heads. I also have the Ford aftermarket aluminum manifold. So all that is missing is the aftermarket carb.

Some advertise these parts as "Boss" aftermarket which is kind of misleading in my humble opinion. The manifold and carb would fit any 351 4V application. (I understand FIT does not necessarily mean RUN WELL).

This model carb suits my vanity in having/building a 1971 351 Boss with aftermarket high performance Ford parts. Strictly "poser" status.

And I appreciate the insight about this particular carburetor. I consider it overpriced by a factor of 3. But it is the first one I have come across. So now, at least I know what to look for.

At the time I get my engine built to the carb level, if I am unable to find an aftermarket carb which meets my "value" level, I probably will go with a new carb.

 
I have a few comments about some of your questions, and also a few suggestions for you, and you may not agree with them.

1) Double-pumper and dual-feed are two entirely different things and one does not neccesarily have anything to do with the other. A "Double-Pumper" carb means that there are two accelerator pumps (power valves) on this carb, one within each of the two metering blocks situated on each end of the carb. This gives a dedicated pump to the primary venturiis, as well as a dedicated pump to the secondary set of venriis, all to ensure an adequate supply of fuel to all four venturiis (barrells) during hard acceleration.

In addition, all double-pumper carbs are mechanical-secondaries. There are NO Holley double-pumper carbs that have ever been made or sold that are double-pumpers with vacuum secondaries.

Now, Holley 4-barrel carbs with vacuum-secondaries don't use a metering block on both ends of the carb. There is a normal metering block on the primary end, but the other end (secondaries end) uses a metering PLATE instead of a metering BLOCK. There is no accelerator pump within the metering plate, just a simplified plate that feeds of of vacuum to operate the secondary jets, hence the "vacuum secondary" description.

"Dual-Feed" simply means there is a dedicated fuel line running to each end of the carb: One to the metering block, and one to the metering plate on a vacuum -secondary carb, and obviously one to each of the fuel blocks on a mechanical-secondary carb.

The prescence of a dual-feed set-up signifies nothing in regards to mechanical or vacuum secondaries.

Many unaware people over the years have paid big money for a Holley "Double Pumper" over the years when they were really buying nothing more thana simple dual-feed, vacuum secondary carb.

ALL Holley Double-Pumper carbs are 750 CFM or larger. They have never offered a smaller CFM double-pumper.

On a street-driven car, medium to light weight, a vacuum-secondary carb is a much better choice. It is far more responsive and easier to tune.

Some suggestions:

If this is a street driven car and you are looking for great performance, reliability and ease of use and maintenance, then I strongly suggest you consider getting an Edlebrock carb, which is basically a modern version of the legendary Carter AFB from years ago:

1) They are MUCH less expensive than a similar Holley

2) 95% of the time you can bolt one on right out of the box, and your car will run perfectly with no further adjustements.

3) With a one-piece body, there are NO GASKETS below the float-bowl which makes fuel-bowl leaks impossible. Holleys that sit without frequent use are famously prone to fuel-bowl leaks.

4) There is no power-valve set-up like Holleys, so it is impossible to have a "power valave blow-out" that happens to Holleys all the time. A single engine backjfire just one time will usually blow out a Holley power-vavle. Holley does use blowout-proof power valaves on carbs now, but oldr ones may not have been retro-fitted with one.

5) Fuel "jetting" can be done right on the car without removing the carb. Edlebrocks use "metering rods" instead of "fuel jets". Different methods to achieve the same thing.

In reality, a Holley carb is a far superior and infintely more adjutable device than an Edlebrock carb. For getting that last bit of avaialable performance out of your car, 10/10ths of its potential...there is no better carb. But only if you know intimately how to care and feed one. They take finesse and skill and reward you with astounding performance. Unfortunetaly, many who have Holleys on thier cars don't fully undertsand them and consequently get middling to poor performance from thier car without ever realizing how much performance they are truly missing.

On the other hand, and Edlebrock carb is simple, requires next to nothing in regular tuning and maintenance and delivers outstanding performance. Even the most novice of mechanics will get 90% of thier cars potential from an Edlebrock most often right out of the box.

If you want to simplify your life, drive your car instead of wrench on it all the time, and save a butload of money, get yourself an Edlebrock. You won't be sorry.

One piece of carb advice for all situations: LESS is MORE. A smaller carb will almost always perform better on the street than a larger one. For a street driven, near-stock 351 C in a 71-73 Mustang, a carb of 650-700 CFM will give much better off-the-line "zip", much quicker throttle repsonse and a little better fuel economy. The only thing you give up with a smaller carb is top-end performance, but if you don't plan to be at 4500-5500 rpm drag racing much, you are not losing a thing that is important.

 
ALL Holley Double-Pumper carbs are 750 CFM or larger. They have never offered a smaller CFM double-pumper.
Negatory.

http://www.holley.com/0-4776C.asp

780's are a vac secondary carb. They are the original 4150 style 3310s.

http://www.holley.com/data/Ads/3310page.pdf

I have one on my 390, that I am going to try on my 351C.

IMG_12491.jpg


It is dual feed, vacuum secondary, with front and rear metering blocks. The rear block takes jets and a power valve. Things that were deleted after it became the 3310 4160 AKA the 750.

 
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ALL Holley Double-Pumper carbs are 750 CFM or larger. They have never offered a smaller CFM double-pumper.
Negatory.

http://www.holley.com/0-4776C.asp

780's are a vac secondary carb. They are the original 4150 style 3310s.

http://www.holley.com/data/Ads/3310page.pdf

I have one on my 390, that I am going to try on my 351C.

IMG_12491.jpg


It is dual feed, vacuum secondary, with front and rear metering blocks. The rear block takes jets and a power valve. Things that were deleted after it became the 3310 4160 AKA the 750.
Exactly, as I said. ALL DOUBLE-PUMPERS are at least 750 CFM, none were ever made in a smaller CFM.


OK, now I see. Hollet apparently has started offering double-pumpers in smaller CFMs. I stand corrected.



ALL Holley Double-Pumper carbs are 750 CFM or larger. They have never offered a smaller CFM double-pumper.
Negatory.

http://www.holley.com/0-4776C.asp

780's are a vac secondary carb. They are the original 4150 style 3310s.

http://www.holley.com/data/Ads/3310page.pdf

I have one on my 390, that I am going to try on my 351C.

IMG_12491.jpg


It is dual feed, vacuum secondary, with front and rear metering blocks. The rear block takes jets and a power valve. Things that were deleted after it became the 3310 4160 AKA the 750.
Exactly, as I said. ALL DOUBLE-PUMPERS are at least 750 CFM, none were ever made in a smaller CFM.


OK, now I see. Hollet apparently has started offering double-pumpers in smaller CFMs. I stand corrected.
That 600 Holley looks like a nice little carb...I should have "updated" my rant before I said it! (I haven't been in the market for a carb in many years, so I missed thsat one).

Anyway, I still maintain that;

1) all double pumpers are mechanical secondaries, and that;

2) dual-feed fuel inlet is a seperate feature from "double pumper".

 
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Yep Holley offer double pumpers or mechanical secondary carbs in, 6 different CFM under 750. them been 390, 450, 600, 650, 660 and 700cfm..

http://www.summitracing.com/search/department/air-fuel-delivery/section/carburetors-accessories/part-type/carburetors/brand/holley/number-of-barrels/4/carburetor-flange/square-bore/secondary-type/mechanical

And not trying to be an ass, but the carb in the pic above is a Vac secondary carb, with dual feed, and not a double pumper.. My understanding has always been that a double pumper is a Mechanical secondary carb with dual fuel feed and 2/double accelerator pumps.

Anything with Vac Secondary's isn't referred to or thought as a double pumper, in general muscle car circles.

 
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And not trying to be an ass, but the carb in the pic above is a Vac secondary carb, with dual feed, and not a double pumper.. My understanding has always been that a double pumper is a Mechanical secondary carb with dual fuel feed and 2/double accelerator pumps.

Anything with Vac Secondary's isn't referred to or thought as a double pumper, in general muscle car circles.
I wasn't implying that my 780 was a double pumper. I never stated it in my post. I was replying to this earlier post:

I thought the 780's were a double pumper dual feed on the fords?!
And I posted a link to its history.

 
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