Engine Building Advice Needed

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aasukisuki

Well-known member
Joined
Aug 5, 2010
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Location
Central Iowa
My Car
1973 Mustang Converible
Hey Everyone,

It was unseasonably warm last weekend, so I had a chance to back the mustang out and let it run for a while. Long story short, the car needs a major tune up, and I need to start thinking about rebuilding/replacing the current engine soon.

The car isn't special in terms of rarity, so I'm not opposed to replacing the tired 302 that's in it now. My thoughts are to find a used 351w block and build an engine. Here's my problem: I've never built an engine before.

I've done some basic stuff before (replaced carburetors, throttle bodies, valve covers, etc) but I've never removed a piston, or even taken the heads off of an engine.

I have a couple really good articles published in various magazines for doing some basic tear-down and rebuilds. I also have a book on building small block ford engines. These are all great for theoretical purposes, but really getting in there is a completely different animal.

So here are my questions I'm hoping you guys can help me with: I would really like to build a reliable mild stroker, I'm thinking the 396 variety. I would need to find a machine shop here in central Iowa to prepare the block, but after that, do you think it's too much of a chore for a 1st time engine builder to tackle a stroker build? I'd like to keep the build between $2000-3000. Is realistic for a build like this? Are there parts or brands that you can recommend? How about tools -- What should I buy vs. renting when I need them?

Any and all advice you guys have for me is great. This will really be a project I'd be tackling by myself, as none of my friends are really into cars (although I'm sure I could get their help for some manual labor stuff).

 
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Unless you are looking for the so called PLEASURE of 'building" it yourself, I strongly recommend you simply purchase a complete stroker from one of the reputable shops. They will sometimes dyno it for you and even provide a warranty.

Believe me, it will be far, far cheaper in the long run. I am currently putting together a 545 and when I add up the parts and the machine work, I am about several thousand dollars over what I could have gotten the motor for by ordering it from a reliable shop that does that type motor.

Just my $.02.

BT

 
Do you guys think $2000-3000 can get me what I'm looking for from a shop?



X 2 on that and a lot less headaches along the way.

 
Last edited by a moderator:
Do you guys think $2000-3000 can get me what I'm looking for from a shop?



X 2 on that and a lot less headaches along the way.
I don't see a way to get everything you need for $3,000.00. The stroker kit itself is about $1000. You still need a useable block, cam, lifters, timing set, oil pump, oil pan, distributor, headers, intake, carb, gaskets, machine work on block, balance the assembly, and buy a good set of heads and rocker arms.

Chuck

 
Do you guys think $2000-3000 can get me what I'm looking for from a shop?



X 2 on that and a lot less headaches along the way.
I don't see a way to get everything you need for $3,000.00. The stroker kit itself is about $1000. You still need a useable block, cam, lifters, timing set, oil pump, oil pan, distributor, headers, intake, carb, gaskets, machine work on block, balance the assembly, and buy a good set of heads and rocker arms.

Chuck
I've sent a local machine shop an email to get some ideas. I was originally thinking if I was going to build it myself to just start with a 351W block. However, If I'm going to have a shop do it, maybe I'll just see if they can use the 302 that's in it, and do a 331 stroker or just a rebuild. I'm not going to be racing or anything. I'd just like a reliable engine that I could take cross country and has a little more zip than what it has right now.

 
First of all, I believe you are a bit optimistic with the 2K - 3K for a build. Machine shop costs can easily reach that figure and that is not counting parts.

Having said that, JEGS offer what appears to be a nice Base 347 for an advertised price of $3,299.99. This includes everything except for the carb, water and fuel pumps, distributor, wires and coil, fuel line and balancer. For an additional $1600 ($4899.99), they will add an Edelbrock 600cfm carb, water and fuel pumps, MSD Distributor, wires and coil, fuel line and premium balancer. Truck freight would be $159 or $189, respectively.

On the other hand, Coast High performance can provide a number of strokers that might suit your needs. See the link below:

http://www.coasthigh.com/SearchResults.asp?Search=ford+engines

This is just a cursory look on my part. I know there are many other options out there.

Hope this helps.

BT

 
Like I said earlier, I really have no experience with this, so the 2-3K number is just what seemed reasonable to me, but obviously if it can't be done for that, then I'll need to adjust my thinking.

 
Are sure the engine needs a rebuild? An out of tune engine usually will sound or feel like its worn out. It may jsut need a tune up and a few coats of paint.

Some bolt on stuff will get you some performance and still cruise nice.

 
I had my 351c rebuilt last year and it cost me 8900$. I am in Canada so price might be a little more than. My engine was blue printed everything is new except for the crank shaft. It was dyno'd at the speed shop. The thing with using an old block is you never know what you will find. It might need to be honed at the crank,decked and of course balanced.you might need new valve seats etc etc etc. Unless you really want to keep that engine and really want to learn to do it yourself I would buy a crate as Cobra says.Especially since you want to have either a 351w or 302. I wanted a Cleveland in my car and they are harder to find already made right off the shelf.

But if you want to go that route I suggest you at least double your budget and have a little more "just in case cash" on the side.There is a reason why car enthusiasts say you never make your money back hahahaha

Good luck either way and keep us posted. If you do decide to rebuild I'm sure the guy's here will help you out.

Eric

 
Hey, Jeremy. Just to add my 2 cents, I'm in the middle of my first performance rebuild, and the only thing I've ever done before this is screw up rebuilding some motorcycle carbs and bolt on some headers to an old Nova. More or less. Again, the real question is "Will you receive any enjoyment in doing the work yourself (with a couple of drinking buddies), or would the whole thing just be a chore that you dread every day (because you'll have to work on it, to some degree, on quite a few days until it's done)? Buying an engine off the shelf will still require a lot of manual labor on your part. Since I haven't even had the block or heads rebuilt yet (by a shop), I can't tell you how much a machine shop will charge, but I know it can run over $1000 without blinking, and that's if you buy the cam, lifters, etc. yourself and the pistons, crank, and cylinders only need minor freshening.

After that, you need to buy an intake and carb setup, as well all the "inexpensive" parts that add up to a bunch of money that you never really "see", like the head gaskets and carb adapters and hoses that REALLY need to be replaced, since you're at it anyway, and the headers and new exhaust so you can really appreciate the added horsepower, and the this and the that and the etc.

Plus the two bolts on the torque converter that just won't budge, and that you stripped 'cause you were tired of messing with them. :)

There's a lot to replacing an engine, but it's definitely do-able if you can walk away from a problem and approach it later knowing that there actually IS a way to solve it, and you just need to figure out how. A fairly well-stocked toolbox is definitely needed to keep your sanity, along with a fairly well-stocked fridge for when the work is done for the day. Plus, the guys here would be there for when the times get tough.

Sorry for the convoluted post, but being in the middle of my first engine rebuild, that's kind of the way it's going for me. Let us know what you decide and how we can help.

Doc

 
This post may sound a little offensive/defensive, and I realize I'm new so here so it may not go over too well with some of you, but I'm seeing a lot of people advocating a more expensive and less educational approach IMO, so I'd like to offer a perspective I haven't really seen here yet.

$2-3000 is not unreasonable if you want to do it yourself. That might be a little low if you're dead set on a stroker motor, but for something that's a little better than stock- be it a 302 or 351W - $3000 should be close to, if not more than enough if you're budget minded.

I'm heavily on the side of "Do it yourself." There is a much greater sense of pride and accomplishment when you're riding in a car that's powered by an engine you've put together with your own hands. It's also cheaper and you will learn a lot.

It's not THAT difficult to do it yourself, as long as you are patient, stay focused, and have some reasonable books/manuals to guide you along. Just make sure you label everything and keep your stuff organized!

It seems that so far most people don't think it's worth it to build your own engine, and I'm a little disappointed that nobody has suggested doing it yourself yet. Don't be scared by the idea of all those parts. If you can find a core motor to use for $150 or so (I see worn out 302s and 351Ws every so often this cheap on craigslist) then you can tear into it and see what sort of stuff is involved, then decide after you've got a better idea of what's involved. I know this may sound like a waste of money, but if you decide to go ahead and do it yourself, then you'll already be almost halfway there! If you get into it and decide that a crate motor or paying somebody else to build it is

You won't need many specialty tools - a balancer puller, bearing puller, feeler gauges, and piston sleeve is all I can think of off the top of my head. None of those are incredibly expensive, and if you plan on getting into the automotive hobby world, you'll be glad to have all of them in the future. If somebody sees some non-standard tool that I didn't mention, feel free to post it.

There are a lot of things that you can do to make the machinist's bill drop considerably, things like pulling the freeze plugs and completely disassembling the block will make a noticeable dent. If I remember right, it seems like just having a block magnafluxed, cleaned, bored, honed; crank checked, cleaned, ground, and having the pistons put on the rods, etc. the bill has been around $800 - $1,000.

A quality engine rebuild kit - which includes new pistons, rings, every bearing you'll need to replace, new freeze plugs, every seal you'll need to replace, some assembly lube, and a new oil pump - is $410 for a 351W: http://www.summitracing.com/parts/FEM-MHP176-311/

and $340 for a 302: http://www.summitracing.com/parts/FEM-MHP174-300/ from SummitRacing.

If you paid a machine shop to buy and install all those parts you'd more than likely be looking at well over $1,000.

A cam, lifters, and pushrods shouldn't be more than $200 - $250 unless you want roller-tipped rockers or big HP numbers, then add a couple hundred.

You can find used intakes, carburetors, etc. for reasonable prices, ($500 or less for both) and a set of better than stock iron heads like the GT40 or GT40P that came on newer Windsor blocks can be had fully assembled (or buy cores and have them reconditioned) all for well under $600.

Using GT40 heads does however mean that you'll need different exhaust manifolds/headers, but again you can find these used (it's just pipe, the only advantage IMO of buying new is that it's shinier) online, local, at a swap meet, whatever, for a reasonable price. If you aren't putting in a big

You can find decent GM HEI style electronic ignition distributors with Ford shafts on ebay for less than $100, shipped. These are vastly better than stock and are a very reliable, they'll simplify things and add a little power.

Add a $2 - 300 for random, unpredicted costs as well as fluids, belts, plugs, hoses, etc. and that puts the total at about $3,100. Add in a core engine to use and you can bump that to just under $3,300.

There are things you could do to make that total lower, like having your heads reconditioned rather than buying new ones, or searching around more to find better deals (I only searched SummitRacing for new parts and looked at the first page of ebay searches for intakes, heads, and carbs) or just using the 302 that's in your car now.

Hopefully though this gives you some idea of what's possible and gives you a little confidence that you can do it yourself.

Sure, you could buy a crate motor and spend about $4,500, or pay the machine shop to do everything for you for about the same. That would give you an engine that's running and ready to drop in with minimal effort, or you could save a little money and have a great sense of pride in the end product by doing it yourself.

There are lots of helpful people on forums like this and www.vintage-mustang.com who can help you choose parts, and in my experience, machinists are almost always willing to chat for a while and give you advice for putting things back together if you ask. They are rarely so desperate for work that they'll flat refuse and just tell you to let them do it.

 
This post may sound a little offensive/defensive, and I realize I'm new so here so it may not go over too well with some of you, but I'm seeing a lot of people advocating a more expensive and less educational approach IMO, so I'd like to offer a perspective I haven't really seen here yet.

$3000 is not unreasonable if you want to do it yourself. That might be a little low if you're dead set on a stroker motor, but for something that's a little better than stock- be it a 302 or 351W - $3000 should be close to, if not more than enough if you're budget minded.

I'm heavily on the side of "Do it yourself." There is a much greater sense of pride and accomplishment when you're riding in a car that's powered by an engine you've put together with your own hands. It's also cheaper and you will learn a lot.

It's not THAT difficult to do it yourself, as long as you are patient, stay focused, and have some reasonable books/manuals to guide you along. Just make sure you label everything and keep your stuff organized!

It seems that so far most people don't think it's worth it to build your own engine, and I'm a little disappointed that nobody has suggested doing it yourself yet. Don't be scared by the idea of all those parts. If you can find a core motor to use for $150 or so (I see worn out 302s and 351Ws every so often this cheap on craigslist) then you can tear into it and see what sort of stuff is involved, then decide after you've got a better idea of what's involved. I know this may sound like a waste of money, but if you decide to go ahead and do it yourself, then you'll already be almost halfway there! If you get into it and decide that a crate motor or paying somebody else to build it is

You won't need many specialty tools - a balancer puller, bearing puller, feeler gauges, and piston sleeve is all I can think of off the top of my head. None of those are incredibly expensive, and if you plan on getting into the automotive hobby world, you'll be glad to have all of them in the future. If somebody sees some non-standard tool that I didn't mention, feel free to post it.

There are a lot of things that you can do to make the machinist's bill drop considerably, things like pulling the freeze plugs and completely disassembling the block will make a noticeable dent. If I remember right, it seems like just having a block magnafluxed, cleaned, bored, honed; crank checked, cleaned, ground, and having the pistons put on the rods, etc. the bill has been around $800 - $1,000.

A quality engine rebuild kit - which includes new pistons, rings, every bearing you'll need to replace, new freeze plugs, every seal you'll need to replace, some assembly lube, and a new oil pump - is $410 for a 351W: http://www.summitracing.com/parts/FEM-MHP176-311/

and $340 for a 302: http://www.summitracing.com/parts/FEM-MHP174-300/ from SummitRacing.

If you paid a machine shop to buy and install all those parts you'd more than likely be looking at well over $1,000.

A cam, lifters, and pushrods shouldn't be more than $200 - $250 unless you want roller-tipped rockers or big HP numbers, then add a couple hundred.

You can find used intakes, carburetors, etc. for reasonable prices, ($500 or less for both) and a set of better than stock iron heads like the GT40 or GT40P that came on newer Windsor blocks can be had fully assembled (or buy cores and have them reconditioned) all for well under $600.

Using GT40 heads does however mean that you'll need different exhaust manifolds/headers, but again you can find these used (it's just pipe, the only advantage IMO of buying new is that it's shinier) online, local, at a swap meet, whatever, for a reasonable price. If you aren't putting in a big

You can find decent GM HEI style electronic ignition distributors with Ford shafts on ebay for less than $100, shipped. These are vastly better than stock and are a very reliable, they'll simplify things and add a little power.

Add a $2 - 300 for random, unpredicted costs as well as fluids, belts, plugs, hoses, etc. and that puts the total at about $3,100. Add in a core engine to use and you can bump that to just under $3,300.

There are things you could do to make that total lower, like having your heads reconditioned rather than buying new ones, or searching around more to find better deals (I only searched SummitRacing for new parts and looked at the first page of ebay searches for intakes, heads, and carbs) or just using the 302 that's in your car now.

Sure, you could buy a crate motor and spend well over $4,000 or pay the machine shop to do everything for you for as much or more, and that would give you an engine that's running and ready to drop in with minimal effort. Or you could save a little money and have a great sense of pride in the end product by doing it yourself. It's also a good chance to learn and make some great memories with friends.

There are lots of helpful people on forums like this and http://forums.vintage-mustang.com/ who can help you choose parts, and in my experience, machinists are almost always willing to chat for a while and give you advice for putting things back together if you ask. They are rarely so desperate for work that they'll flat refuse and just tell you to let them do it.

Hopefully though this gives you some idea of what's possible and gives you a little confidence that you can do it yourself.

Any questions, just ask!

-Louis

 
This post may sound a little offensive/defensive, and I realize I'm new so here so it may not go over too well with some of you, but I'm seeing a lot of people advocating a more expensive and less educational approach IMO, so I'd like to offer a perspective I haven't really seen here yet.

$3000 is not unreasonable if you want to do it yourself. That might be a little low if you're dead set on a stroker motor, but for something that's a little better than stock- be it a 302 or 351W - $3000 should be close to, if not more than enough if you're budget minded.

I'm heavily on the side of "Do it yourself." There is a much greater sense of pride and accomplishment when you're riding in a car that's powered by an engine you've put together with your own hands. It's also cheaper and you will learn a lot.

It's not THAT difficult to do it yourself, as long as you are patient, stay focused, and have some reasonable books/manuals to guide you along. Just make sure you label everything and keep your stuff organized!

It seems that so far most people don't think it's worth it to build your own engine, and I'm a little disappointed that nobody has suggested doing it yourself yet. Don't be scared by the idea of all those parts. If you can find a core motor to use for $150 or so (I see worn out 302s and 351Ws every so often this cheap on craigslist) then you can tear into it and see what sort of stuff is involved, then decide after you've got a better idea of what's involved. I know this may sound like a waste of money, but if you decide to go ahead and do it yourself, then you'll already be almost halfway there! If you get into it and decide that a crate motor or paying somebody else to build it is

You won't need many specialty tools - a balancer puller, bearing puller, feeler gauges, and piston sleeve is all I can think of off the top of my head. None of those are incredibly expensive, and if you plan on getting into the automotive hobby world, you'll be glad to have all of them in the future. If somebody sees some non-standard tool that I didn't mention, feel free to post it.

There are a lot of things that you can do to make the machinist's bill drop considerably, things like pulling the freeze plugs and completely disassembling the block will make a noticeable dent. If I remember right, it seems like just having a block magnafluxed, cleaned, bored, honed; crank checked, cleaned, ground, and having the pistons put on the rods, etc. the bill has been around $800 - $1,000.

A quality engine rebuild kit - which includes new pistons, rings, every bearing you'll need to replace, new freeze plugs, every seal you'll need to replace, some assembly lube, and a new oil pump - is $410 for a 351W: http://www.summitracing.com/parts/FEM-MHP176-311/

and $340 for a 302: http://www.summitracing.com/parts/FEM-MHP174-300/ from SummitRacing.

If you paid a machine shop to buy and install all those parts you'd more than likely be looking at well over $1,000.

A cam, lifters, and pushrods shouldn't be more than $200 - $250 unless you want roller-tipped rockers or big HP numbers, then add a couple hundred.

You can find used intakes, carburetors, etc. for reasonable prices, ($500 or less for both) and a set of better than stock iron heads like the GT40 or GT40P that came on newer Windsor blocks can be had fully assembled (or buy cores and have them reconditioned) all for well under $600.

Using GT40 heads does however mean that you'll need different exhaust manifolds/headers, but again you can find these used (it's just pipe, the only advantage IMO of buying new is that it's shinier) online, local, at a swap meet, whatever, for a reasonable price. If you aren't putting in a big

You can find decent GM HEI style electronic ignition distributors with Ford shafts on ebay for less than $100, shipped. These are vastly better than stock and are a very reliable, they'll simplify things and add a little power.

Add a $2 - 300 for random, unpredicted costs as well as fluids, belts, plugs, hoses, etc. and that puts the total at about $3,100. Add in a core engine to use and you can bump that to just under $3,300.

There are things you could do to make that total lower, like having your heads reconditioned rather than buying new ones, or searching around more to find better deals (I only searched SummitRacing for new parts and looked at the first page of ebay searches for intakes, heads, and carbs) or just using the 302 that's in your car now.

Sure, you could buy a crate motor and spend well over $4,000 or pay the machine shop to do everything for you for as much or more, and that would give you an engine that's running and ready to drop in with minimal effort. Or you could save a little money and have a great sense of pride in the end product by doing it yourself. It's also a good chance to learn and make some great memories with friends.

There are lots of helpful people on forums like this and http://forums.vintage-mustang.com/ who can help you choose parts, and in my experience, machinists are almost always willing to chat for a while and give you advice for putting things back together if you ask. They are rarely so desperate for work that they'll flat refuse and just tell you to let them do it.

Hopefully though this gives you some idea of what's possible and gives you a little confidence that you can do it yourself.

Any questions, just ask!

-Louis
Louis, No offense taken by me. I also advocate doing as much of the work that an individual can do. However, the original question was can a 351W based stroker motor be built for 2000-3000 dollars. I don't believe it can. Obviously, other options based on the original engine are possible within the 3000 dollar budget. Chuck

 
True, I just read the parts that said "I want to take a 351W block and build an engine." and "I'd like to keep it between $2-3000" and just disregarded the stroker part because I agree, $3,000 is not enough for a stroker of pretty much any variety.

So now aasukisuki needs to decide whether he wants to build an engine on a budget or build a stroker. Sadly these are two different things. After this question is answered we can help him more.

-Louis

 
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True, I just read the parts that said "I want to take a 351W block and build an engine." and "I'd like to keep it between $2-3000" and just disregarded the stroker part because I agree, $3,000 is not enough for a stroker of pretty much any variety.

So now aasukisuki needs to decide whether he wants to build an engine on a budget or build a stroker. Sadly these are two different things. After this question is answered we can help him more.

-Louis
Agreed! We'll help as much as we can. Chuck

 
Louis, No offense taken by me. I also advocate doing as much of the work that an individual can do. However, the original question was can a 351W based stroker motor be built for 2000-3000 dollars. I don't believe it can. Obviously, other options based on the original engine are possible within the 3000 dollar budget. Chuck

Very well put chuck, The question was not to rebuild a 351W for 3 Grand but a stroked 351W. From what I have seen from building my 408c there is no way to do it yourself for that money and you can get a lot closer to that money with a crate motor.

 
Louis, No offense taken by me. I also advocate doing as much of the work that an individual can do. However, the original question was can a 351W based stroker motor be built for 2000-3000 dollars. I don't believe it can. Obviously, other options based on the original engine are possible within the 3000 dollar budget. Chuck
Very well put chuck, The question was not to rebuild a 351W for 3 Grand but a stroked 351W. From what I have seen from building my 408c there is no way to do it yourself for that money and you can get a lot closer to that money with a crate motor.

Agreed Tn..I'd go this route..http://www.blueprintengines.com/index.php/ford-bpf4082ctfor a few more bucks you have a warrenty plus piece of mind this co builds awsome engines I bought the motor for my T/A from them & it was perfect ! I couldn't even buy the parts I needed for what I paid for a complete long block! If you go thru rock auto it may be even cheaper...

 
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