A Possible game changer

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mach71351c

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7173 Mustang Supporter Member
Joined
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Location
Escondido, Ca.
My Car
71 Mustang Mach 1
72 Mustang Mach 1 (parts car)
A buddy of mine called me to offer me 1st shot on buying his 460. It's a 535hp 500tqr Ford motorsports SVO create motor. Built in 98. It's never been ran. Comes with C6 trans 850 demon carb high tqr starter motor mounts and headers for 5k. He has 2 projects a 69 Bronco that he 4 wheels the crap out of and a 67 pro street Cougar. Well he wants to take the Bronco to the next level so he is scraping the Cougar and selling off the parts. I'm just not sure I want to give up on building a 408 Cleveland for my Mach 1.

Any thoughts?

fender 008.jpg

fender 009.jpg

 
If price is the deciding factor, I can tell you that $5000 is a good bit cheaper than building the 408 Stroker if your using aluminum heads. I built my 408 stroker with afd aluminum heads and had a lot more than 5k into it!! With just a little more HP than what you are talking around 550-575.

Just my experience.

But you have to calculate in the motor mounts, rad, springs,brackets, ect.... for a big block too.

 
Depends what you want to do with the car..If you want to go fast in a straight line then buy it..BUT if you want to be able to really drive the car & drive it for extended lengths of time then stick with your plan..Having had a similar motor 700hp 429/460 in the Green Mach I purchased from a member here the wow factor wore off real quick..The car handled for shit..you couldn't take more than a half hour or so behind the wheel was just a dog to drive..No fun at all..Pulled that motor & c6 & sold it this past summer..

I have always believed in a more balanced refined approach to my builds since I really like to be able to DRIVE MY CARS..I want them them to handle..take long trips with ease..still have the power required when I stomp the pedal..I was going to do a 408 stroker too..but the more I thought about it the more research I did I came to the conclusion why do that when I could build a nice user friendly streetable 351c with 380-420 hp more than enough for the street..I also knew that my other 351cj q-code car was awsome to drive had plenty of power handled great..was a fun balnced package I could drive for hours on end..In doing my research I came across an article that confirmed everything I had known..So I changed my plan no 408 stroker..Faux 351c CJ build 4r70w tranny..all the upgraded modern suspension components..

Heres a cut & paste from that article some food for thought:

Building a 351C based stroker motor is contrary to the spirit of the 351C. It returns to the excesses that Ford designed the 351C to leave behind. I'm convinced if a high performance street, sports car or road racing enthusiast wants a 500 bhp engine the standard displacement 351 is a better choice than a stroker displacing 383, 393 or 408 cubic inches. A smaller motor builds power more gradually as the engine speed rises, it doesn't make 400+ foot/pounds of torque abruptly at 2000 rpm like a stroker does, the power is delivered in a manner that is easier for the average driver to control, or to put it another way, in a manner making it harder for the tires to loose adhesion. Choosing balanced performance over brute force is my recommendation. Build a 400 to 450 horsepower 351C, a task which is not difficult or exorbitantly expensive; keep the power delivery controllable; equip the car with the lightest wheels, the best tires, performance gears, lightweight drivetrain parts (drive shaft and axles), the best shocks and the best brakes you can afford; lower the chassis; and lighten the vehicle to improve the power to weight ratio. Truly going fast on street tires is not a matter of how big or powerful the motor is, but how well balanced the package is.

 
That sounds like a deal to me but I really like Qcode351mach's advise. I'm just getting started on a rebuild of a 72 Mach 1 and want to turn it into a 73 clone to match my first Mach 1 and I think I'll follow that advise on the engine build.

 
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If it has been sitting since 98 it will need a complete tear down to check for rust and to re-lube everything. If the seals have been sitting dry all this time you may want to replace them when its apart. IMO $5K is a bit high given the circumstances.

 
Last edited by a moderator:
Depends what you want to do with the car..If you want to go fast in a straight line then buy it..BUT if you want to be able to really drive the car & drive it for extended lengths of time then stick with your plan..Having had a similar motor 700hp 429/460 in the Green Mach I purchased from a member here the wow factor wore off real quick..The car handled for shit..you couldn't take more than a half hour or so behind the wheel was just a dog to drive..No fun at all..Pulled that motor & c6 & sold it this past summer..

I have always believed in a more balanced refined approach to my builds since I really like to be able to DRIVE MY CARS..I want them them to handle..take long trips with ease..still have the power required when I stomp the pedal..I was going to do a 408 stroker too..but the more I thought about it the more research I did I came to the conclusion why do that when I could build a nice user friendly streetable 351c with 380-420 hp more than enough for the street..I also knew that my other 351cj q-code car was awsome to drive had plenty of power handled great..was a fun balnced package I could drive for hours on end..In doing my research I came across an article that confirmed everything I had known..So I changed my plan no 408 stroker..Faux 351c CJ build 4r70w tranny..all the upgraded modern suspension components..

Heres a cut & paste from that article some food for thought:

Building a 351C based stroker motor is contrary to the spirit of the 351C. It returns to the excesses that Ford designed the 351C to leave behind. I'm convinced if a high performance street, sports car or road racing enthusiast wants a 500 bhp engine the standard displacement 351 is a better choice than a stroker displacing 383, 393 or 408 cubic inches. A smaller motor builds power more gradually as the engine speed rises, it doesn't make 400+ foot/pounds of torque abruptly at 2000 rpm like a stroker does, the power is delivered in a manner that is easier for the average driver to control, or to put it another way, in a manner making it harder for the tires to loose adhesion. Choosing balanced performance over brute force is my recommendation. Build a 400 to 450 horsepower 351C, a task which is not difficult or exorbitantly expensive; keep the power delivery controllable; equip the car with the lightest wheels, the best tires, performance gears, lightweight drivetrain parts (drive shaft and axles), the best shocks and the best brakes you can afford; lower the chassis; and lighten the vehicle to improve the power to weight ratio. Truly going fast on street tires is not a matter of how big or powerful the motor is, but how well balanced the package is.
Click to expand...
My plan is to drive the car. ( allot ) So a good balance of power and driveiblity is a must. I want to drive the car with the A/C on in traffic . I think the 1st deal beaker is the SVO intake is to tall to run my NASA hood. Winch is one of my favorite things about the car. I must admit when I first looked at the motor all I thought about was the "WOW" factor. Besides I have good 4V CC heads and 4 bolt main block. Scott I find this interesting about the 408. I was under the impression stroking the 4V motor is the way to go. So I have to listen to Msmach351c and really think this one threw.


If it has been sitting since 98 it will need a complete tear down to check for rust and to re-lube everything. If the seals have been sitting dry all this time you may want to replace them when its apart. IMO $5K is a bit high given the circumstances.
Click to expand...
I know,I was thinking the same thing. There was no precaution taken for long term storage. I'm thinking more like 4k.4V heads 001.jpg

8-4-12 012.jpg

 
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What comes for the first deal breaker. 429/460 Victor Jr single plane intake will fit under the stock NASA hood been there done that.

1) ditch the spacer = wont fit

2) use the corvette L88 style bottom for the aircleaner = huge dropbase (or get dropbase bottom from racingjunk.com, they'll make 2" dropbases for 4150)

It'll fit.

3) other options use the edelbrock pro-flow aircleaner assembly, for under 20 bucks of cost - ditch the foam element and use a quality filter fabric instead = flows much better. Or just use like 9" diameter aircleaner.

more options, once the engine needs to be dissassembled, sell the Victor Jr at www.460ford.com or at www.429-460.com Get a cheaper edelbrock performer or similar, if you want a ultralow intake get a torker II, unlike its sbc cousins in 429/460 desing the torker II is suprisingly good intake despites it's very low singleplane desing.

Rest is up to you and what do you need from the Mach 1. I switched from the 400'ish hp 357 cid 4v Cleveland to very similar but the 560 hp M-6009-C460 crate and I've never looked back. I haven't noticed that there would be too much torque at low rpms to take off from the traffic lights and it revs to 6500 rpm without hesitation. Only bummer is that its been told to be very nose heavy - well I haven't noticed it yet though - maybe due to the fact that my ol' Cleveland was equipped with iron case FMX.

You've nice parts there but now you need to determine which route to go. IMO the 5K is too much, its been sitting allmost 16 years.

 
My car had the Kasse P-51 alum heads alum water pump all the 429 suspension stuff..Sway bars too...Was No problem in a straight line..Every time I took a turn it felt like the nose was going to keep going straight..You had to slow down major into any turns curving roads..No comparison to my other 351cj car like driving 2 completely different cars..I'm happy it's gone & can't wait to install the new 351cj motor 4r70w drive train..

101_0302.JPG101_0371.JPG



My plan is to drive the car. ( allot ) So a good balance of power and driveiblity is a must. I want to drive the car with the A/C on in traffic . I think the 1st deal beaker is the SVO intake is to tall to run my NASA hood. Winch is one of my favorite things about the car. I must admit when I first looked at the motor all I thought about was the "WOW" factor. Besides I have good 4V CC heads and 4 bolt main block. Scott I find this interesting about the 408. I was under the impression stroking the 4V motor is the way to go. So I have to listen to Msmach351c and really think this one threw.
Click to expand...
My engine is at the builders as I write..Basically what I'm doing is a faux 351cj build..

351c 2 bolt block

stock connecting rods with arp bolts

speed pro pistons

open chamber heads with manley 1 piece valves--3 angle valve job

Heads shaved for 10-5-1 compression in conjunction with proper pistons

Ford motor sport bolt on roller rockers

heavy thick walled pushrods with 040 orifice

vintage edlebrock f351 intake (performer)

hydraulic lifters

boss 351 cam but for hydraulic lifters

Stock oil pump-351cj pickup

Stock oil pan but with windage tray added

Quick ss carb 735cfm vacuum secondaries

& a few other things

Nice simple build that should do 380-420 hp No problem

 
Last edited by a moderator:
Depends what you want to do with the car..If you want to go fast in a straight line then buy it..BUT if you want to be able to really drive the car & drive it for extended lengths of time then stick with your plan..Having had a similar motor 700hp 429/460 in the Green Mach I purchased from a member here the wow factor wore off real quick..The car handled for shit..you couldn't take more than a half hour or so behind the wheel was just a dog to drive..No fun at all..Pulled that motor & c6 & sold it this past summer..

I have always believed in a more balanced refined approach to my builds since I really like to be able to DRIVE MY CARS..I want them them to handle..take long trips with ease..still have the power required when I stomp the pedal..I was going to do a 408 stroker too..but the more I thought about it the more research I did I came to the conclusion why do that when I could build a nice user friendly streetable 351c with 380-420 hp more than enough for the street..I also knew that my other 351cj q-code car was awsome to drive had plenty of power handled great..was a fun balnced package I could drive for hours on end..In doing my research I came across an article that confirmed everything I had known..So I changed my plan no 408 stroker..Faux 351c CJ build 4r70w tranny..all the upgraded modern suspension components..

Heres a cut & paste from that article some food for thought:

Building a 351C based stroker motor is contrary to the spirit of the 351C. It returns to the excesses that Ford designed the 351C to leave behind. I'm convinced if a high performance street, sports car or road racing enthusiast wants a 500 bhp engine the standard displacement 351 is a better choice than a stroker displacing 383, 393 or 408 cubic inches. A smaller motor builds power more gradually as the engine speed rises, it doesn't make 400+ foot/pounds of torque abruptly at 2000 rpm like a stroker does, the power is delivered in a manner that is easier for the average driver to control, or to put it another way, in a manner making it harder for the tires to loose adhesion. Choosing balanced performance over brute force is my recommendation. Build a 400 to 450 horsepower 351C, a task which is not difficult or exorbitantly expensive; keep the power delivery controllable; equip the car with the lightest wheels, the best tires, performance gears, lightweight drivetrain parts (drive shaft and axles), the best shocks and the best brakes you can afford; lower the chassis; and lighten the vehicle to improve the power to weight ratio. Truly going fast on street tires is not a matter of how big or powerful the motor is, but how well balanced the package is.
Click to expand...
My plan is to drive the car. ( allot ) So a good balance of power and driveiblity is a must. I want to drive the car with the A/C on in traffic . I think the 1st deal beaker is the SVO intake is to tall to run my NASA hood. Winch is one of my favorite things about the car. I must admit when I first looked at the motor all I thought about was the "WOW" factor. Besides I have good 4V CC heads and 4 bolt main block. Scott I find this interesting about the 408. I was under the impression stroking the 4V motor is the way to go. So I have to listen to Msmach351c and really think this one threw.


If it has been sitting since 98 it will need a complete tear down to check for rust and to re-lube everything. If the seals have been sitting dry all this time you may want to replace them when its apart. IMO $5K is a bit high given the circumstances.
Click to expand...
I know,I was thinking the same thing. There was no precaution taken for long term storage. I'm thinking more like 4k.
Click to expand...
Hi Mike

Looks like your coming along nice with the engine

Where are the pics of your car?

 
Depends what you want to do with the car..If you want to go fast in a straight line then buy it..BUT if you want to be able to really drive the car & drive it for extended lengths of time then stick with your plan..Having had a similar motor 700hp 429/460 in the Green Mach I purchased from a member here the wow factor wore off real quick..The car handled for shit..you couldn't take more than a half hour or so behind the wheel was just a dog to drive..No fun at all..Pulled that motor & c6 & sold it this past summer..

I have always believed in a more balanced refined approach to my builds since I really like to be able to DRIVE MY CARS..I want them them to handle..take long trips with ease..still have the power required when I stomp the pedal..I was going to do a 408 stroker too..but the more I thought about it the more research I did I came to the conclusion why do that when I could build a nice user friendly streetable 351c with 380-420 hp more than enough for the street..I also knew that my other 351cj q-code car was awsome to drive had plenty of power handled great..was a fun balnced package I could drive for hours on end..In doing my research I came across an article that confirmed everything I had known..So I changed my plan no 408 stroker..Faux 351c CJ build 4r70w tranny..all the upgraded modern suspension components..

Heres a cut & paste from that article some food for thought:

Building a 351C based stroker motor is contrary to the spirit of the 351C. It returns to the excesses that Ford designed the 351C to leave behind. I'm convinced if a high performance street, sports car or road racing enthusiast wants a 500 bhp engine the standard displacement 351 is a better choice than a stroker displacing 383, 393 or 408 cubic inches. A smaller motor builds power more gradually as the engine speed rises, it doesn't make 400+ foot/pounds of torque abruptly at 2000 rpm like a stroker does, the power is delivered in a manner that is easier for the average driver to control, or to put it another way, in a manner making it harder for the tires to loose adhesion. Choosing balanced performance over brute force is my recommendation. Build a 400 to 450 horsepower 351C, a task which is not difficult or exorbitantly expensive; keep the power delivery controllable; equip the car with the lightest wheels, the best tires, performance gears, lightweight drivetrain parts (drive shaft and axles), the best shocks and the best brakes you can afford; lower the chassis; and lighten the vehicle to improve the power to weight ratio. Truly going fast on street tires is not a matter of how big or powerful the motor is, but how well balanced the package is.
Click to expand...
My plan is to drive the car. ( allot ) So a good balance of power and driveiblity is a must. I want to drive the car with the A/C on in traffic . I think the 1st deal beaker is the SVO intake is to tall to run my NASA hood. Winch is one of my favorite things about the car. I must admit when I first looked at the motor all I thought about was the "WOW" factor. Besides I have good 4V CC heads and 4 bolt main block. Scott I find this interesting about the 408. I was under the impression stroking the 4V motor is the way to go. So I have to listen to Msmach351c and really think this one threw.


If it has been sitting since 98 it will need a complete tear down to check for rust and to re-lube everything. If the seals have been sitting dry all this time you may want to replace them when its apart. IMO $5K is a bit high given the circumstances.
Click to expand...
I know,I was thinking the same thing. There was no precaution taken for long term storage. I'm thinking more like 4k.
Click to expand...
Hi Mike

Looks like your coming along nice with the engine

Where are the pics of your car?
Click to expand...
Hey Marc, Welcome back! Most of the progress pics of my car are posted in " what did you do to your car " thread. I need to to my own build thread. How is your car coming along?

Update I'm sticking with my 351C. Bottom line the car will be better balanced with the Cleveland. My body did sell the motor and trans for 4.500.

 
Last edited by a moderator:

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