question about vacuum

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billy73mach1

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Jul 1, 2013
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Location
North Carolina USA
My Car
1973 Q code Mach 1 with 351 Cleveland 2V heads/C6
Hey guys, I was just wondering about normal vacuum readings at idle. Im having a hard time tuning my carb. I have a 351 cleveland with a comp cams 280H magnum. My vacuum at idle is around 15-16 hg. Also I forgot to mention i have 2v heads. When I shift to drive i have only about 5hg. Is this normal?

 
What is the RPM when you are trying to tune your carburetor? If it's too high it will make tuning difficult. As will e mentioned vacuum leaks will also make it impossible to tune.

What RPM drop are you getting when you shift into drive?

 
My RPM at idle in park is about 900 and when put in gear it drops to about 650. My tourqe converter is a P330 10" diameter not sure about stall. C6 and 3.89 gears. The carb im trying now is an edelbrock 1406. It sounds great at idle in park but in gear it seems to be a bit rough. Cruising feels like its either surging or misfiring. What confuses me is that in gear with no throttle i get 5hg, then rev it up slowly and my vacuum gauge goes up slowly. Shouldn't it be the other way around. Snap the throttle in park at idle and the guage reads as it should. Could it be the step up springs need changing? My timing is at 18 initial to somewhere above 30 total, duraspark vacuum advance hooked to ported vacuum at carb.

 
Assuming the float level is correct, it sounds like the idle/light load/cruise circuit is lean. Are the idle mixture (really volume of mixture) about 1.5 turns out from seated? Does the vacuum gauge become erratic when placed in gear?

Chuck

 
first make sure all tuning and measurement is done with the engine warmed up, a cold verse hot engine is very different and you want to make sure all tuning is down when the car is at normal operating temperature.

next you want to make sure all tuning is down under normal load. in this case foot on brake or parking brake engaged and and for an automatic with the car in gear and headlights turned on.

turning on the headlights loads the electrical system and can affect idle.

so make sure when you tune Idle rpms with an automatic you have the car in gear and hold the brake.

what you will find is you might have a very high park RPMS but you need to compensate for the load down the transmission and accessories can cause with an aftermarket cam.

you are running a huge initial timing. depending on what you are trying to accomplish this could be the problem. Did somebody attempt to vaccum tune the motor?

are you running fixed mechanical for a turbo or super charger?

what CFM is the carb?

what spark plugs are you running?

what are the plugs gapped at?

do you have oem or aftermarket ignition?

what ignition wires are to you running?

do you have vacuum advance?

there are many different ways to approach this but there may not be a solution depending on configuration.

idle bleeds could be out of wack, butterflies could be open too far on secondaries.

on average timing is between 6 and 12 degrees more timing usually means more power but you do throw off the Idle as you increase timing.

now a vacuum leak is possible. you could have a blown diaphragm or a popped off hose or a seal leaking.

with the engine running you could try cupping your hands over the carb intake and choke off the air the engine should stall out, if it keeps running then air is getting sucked in from elsewhere and you usually can hear the vacuum leak.

when testing for a leak, you want to disconnect all vacuum accessories and cap all external vacuum tree feeds to weed them out as possible leak sources.

if you have a hand vacuum pump you can then test accessories one at a time and see what is leaking.

take a vaccum reading with the engine warmed up in gear and get a base line, cap all vaccum lines and retest and see if there was a change.

you can try to choke the carb and stall the engine to check for manifold leaks, if you suspect a leak you can spray around the base with carb cleaner and see if you have a change in idle rpms that would point to a leak.

a PCV that is clogged or incorrect can cause problems, during testing the brake booster, distributor vaccum advance and pcv should be capped off to root them out as a leak source.

if no change then you can move towards tuning changes and away from a leak.

on the tuning end i would back off initial timing check the ignition system for problems and inspect the mechanical advance to make sure it is operating correctly.

then all tuning would be under load, lights on car in gear.

when i first started to tune my car i was getting 13" in park and 7-9" in gear.

i had to change plugs, coil, ignition wires, i changed to points during testing.

i also had failures in parts i thought were good and turns out not to be.

i had to replace my brake booster, and A/C vacuum canister as they caused problems.

I found i had ignition problems even with new parts.

then it came down to setting rpms under load. on my car i have to run over 1000 rpms in park because it drops heavy under load down to 700-800rpms.

when you rebuild engines and go with aftermarket cams you can take the ford oem specs on how the engine should be setup and throw it in the trash can. you have to go by what your engine is telling you.

in your case there are still many questions, and then there is the direction you want to go with the car, tuning for traffic and normal street driving is different from performance and there is trade offs.

 
Assuming the float level is correct, it sounds like the idle/light load/cruise circuit is lean. Are the idle mixture (really volume of mixture) about 1.5 turns out from seated? Does the vacuum gauge become erratic when placed in gear?

Chuck
I checked the floats and they were correct. I set the idle screws to 1 1/2 turns out from seated when i first cranked it and then i adjusted them for highest vacuum without RPM Increasing. Which resulted in me turning them out mabye another full turn. When I put it in gear the needle on the vacuum gauge does shake. In park it does not. I should also add that when I use manifold vacuum on the distributor, the idle in park goes through the roof. I've tried adjusting it but every allen wrench i stick in there doesn't seem to connect with any adjustment screw. The distributor is a remanufactured motorcraft electronic, I believe for a 1974 460. The distributor has the duraspark rotor, adapter and cap. It does drive better with manifold vacuum but when you put it in park the idle sounds rediculous. The car also tries to pull you through the stop lights.

 
Make sure you don't have a vacuum leak, check all of the hoses, pcv valve, vacuum modulator, and brake vacuum booster.

When adjusting the idle mixture screws you will need to adjust the idle speed to keep it within the range for adjusting the idle mixture.

I would start with around 8 or 10 degrees advance with ported and manifold vacuum capped. Connect the distributor to manifold vacuum, this will raise your initial timing.

Set your RPM's to around 800, with the transmission in park, and start adjusting your idle mixture for maximum revolutions, decreasing the idle speed, as needed, to keep it around 800 rpm.

After you get it adjusted in park, see what happens in drive, and readjust. If you want you can now also try adjusting the carburetor for maximum vacuum.

 
Assuming the float level is correct, it sounds like the idle/light load/cruise circuit is lean. Are the idle mixture (really volume of mixture) about 1.5 turns out from seated? Does the vacuum gauge become erratic when placed in gear?

Chuck
I checked the floats and they were correct. I set the idle screws to 1 1/2 turns out from seated when i first cranked it and then i adjusted them for highest vacuum without RPM Increasing. Which resulted in me turning them out mabye another full turn. When I put it in gear the needle on the vacuum gauge does shake. In park it does not. I should also add that when I use manifold vacuum on the distributor, the idle in park goes through the roof. I've tried adjusting it but every allen wrench i stick in there doesn't seem to connect with any adjustment screw. The distributor is a remanufactured motorcraft electronic, I believe for a 1974 460. The distributor has the duraspark rotor, adapter and cap. It does drive better with manifold vacuum but when you put it in park the idle sounds rediculous. The car also tries to pull you through the stop lights.
All of the following assumes the outer ring on the damper is still properly located and you have no vacuum leaks. Reset initial timing to 14, no vacuum connected, at the lowest useable idle speed. You can also check total mechanical advance, and total vacuum advance while you are at it. Reset idle speed and "mixture" screws for lean best and see if anything changes. I doubt it will. But, test one thing at a time. You will likely need to recalibrate the carb. The owner's manual does a fair to good job of explaining how to do it and what parts are needed. http://www.edelbrock.com/automotive/misc/tech-center/install/1000/1404_manual.pdf

I've re-calibrated a couple of these and, while they are not my first choice in carbs, they do respond pretty much the way the manual says they will. I think richening the idle circuit will cure this particular problem. Any WOT problems require other calibration efforts. let us know what you find out.

Chuck

 
Ok guys I know it's been awhile, but i've been working on this and I've just now got it running good(hope i don't jinx it). Today is the first time ive driven it to work without it cutting off on me. I recurved the distributor with the mr. Gasket kit. Bought an adjustable vacuum advance canister for an 85 GT and swapped the duraspark module for a GM four pin module paired with a 75 torino (blue top internal resistor) coil. Reset initial timing down to about 10 or 11, then hooked up vac advance to ported side of carb. Mechanical kicks in quickly and stops at 32. Vacuum adv raises it up another 15 degrees for about 45-47 total (i know its a lil high) drove great this morning. My vacuum readings however are still the same. I even installed an interior vacuum gauge. Im getting 11-12hg tops at idle. 7hg tops in gear w/ no throttle, but then when driving it reads as high as 20-22hg untill i come to a stop where it goes back down to about 5 or lower on the brakes. Long stoplights make me nervous now. Is this normal for a cleveland with a bigger cam? Remember duration @ .050 is 230 intake and exhaust which doesn't sound too extreme to me.

 
Ok guys I know it's been awhile, but i've been working on this and I've just now got it running good(hope i don't jinx it). Today is the first time ive driven it to work without it cutting off on me. I recurved the distributor with the mr. Gasket kit. Bought an adjustable vacuum advance canister for an 85 GT and swapped the duraspark module for a GM four pin module paired with a 75 torino (blue top internal resistor) coil. Reset initial timing down to about 10 or 11, then hooked up vac advance to ported side of carb. Mechanical kicks in quickly and stops at 32. Vacuum adv raises it up another 15 degrees for about 45-47 total (i know its a lil high) drove great this morning. My vacuum readings however are still the same. I even installed an interior vacuum gauge. Im getting 11-12hg tops at idle. 7hg tops in gear w/ no throttle, but then when driving it reads as high as 20-22hg untill i come to a stop where it goes back down to about 5 or lower on the brakes. Long stoplights make me nervous now. Is this normal for a cleveland with a bigger cam? Remember duration @ .050 is 230 intake and exhaust which doesn't sound too extreme to me.
The comp cams site says "rough idle" = lower vacuum at idle = less pressure differential (signal) to operate the idle circuit. Ed designed these carbs for very mild street cars so the idle circuit needs to be re-calibrated. The cam is ground with a 110 LSA instead of say, a 112 LSA. This just make the idle quality a bit worse. This may help. http://www.compcams.com/Pages/413/cam-timing-lobe-separation-angle.aspx

The overlap of the cam is large enough to warrant more than 10 degrees of initial timing. This isn't the best reference but it may help. https://www.demoncarbs.com/Tech/DemonSelectionGuide.asp

Why did you change the ignition? Chuck

 
Hey man thanks for the links, see i knew that engine liked about 16-18 initial. The previous owner actually had that cam advanced 6 degrees on the timing set keyway and just recently i replaced that timing set of the same kind(cloyes hex-adjust) only I installed it at 0 degrees. That timing set was wore out and it got to a point were you could barely start it because it bogged the starter down so much. Anyway thanks again for the links that explains alot. It's good to know that my vacuum levels are to be expected. I just need to learn how to tune it and put my holley 750 4150 back on. I still don't understand how to set idle or timing with manifold vacuum.


Oh yeah, I dont have the pink resistance wire. So the duraspark module wouldn't work right with 12 volts to the coil. The GM module is simple to use, hot spark, and I still have my plugs gapped to .050. Plus all my duraspark modules were old hand me down originals which is cool but not very trustworthy.

 
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Hey man thanks for the links, see i knew that engine liked about 16-18 initial. The previous owner actually had that cam advanced 6 degrees on the timing set keyway and just recently i replaced that timing set of the same kind(cloyes hex-adjust) only I installed it at 0 degrees. That timing set was wore out and it got to a point were you could barely start it because it bogged the starter down so much. Anyway thanks again for the links that explains alot. It's good to know that my vacuum levels are to be expected. I just need to learn how to tune it and put my holley 750 4150 back on. I still don't understand how to set idle or timing with manifold vacuum.


Oh yeah, I dont have the pink resistance wire. So the duraspark module wouldn't work right with 12 volts to the coil. The GM module is simple to use, hot spark, and I still have my plugs gapped to .050. Plus all my duraspark modules were old hand me down originals which is cool but not very trustworthy.
Comp says to install it 4 degrees advanced on a 106 degree ICL. http://www.compcams.com/Company/CC/cam-specs/Details.aspx?csid=843&sb=2

Installing the cam "straight up" makes idle quality and idle vacuum worse (it may add some power at the top of the rpm band).

If you go back to the 4150, make sure the power valves are appropriately sized. This may help. https://ac17cb7e3cc3506f0d23-7386afb7d61f5e5af0e5a817d2877bfe.ssl.cf1.rackcdn.com/techlibrary_carburetor_tech_info.pdf

Let us know how things go. Chuck

 
some options:

change cams for a more streetable lower lift version that makes more vacuum.

drop CFM on the carb.

a smaller ventricle will increase vacuum.

smaller exhaust pipe diameter will also increase vacuum, this will also increase double dip in the carb which has some benefits for vacuum and mpg.

the more the engine has to work to suck in and spit out air the higher the vaccum will be, yes power will drop and engine will detune but drivability and vacuum accessories will work.

spark gap, close it up to .032-.035 if the gap is too big vaccum will drop off big time.

 
Comp says to install it 4 degrees advanced on a 106 degree ICL. http://www.compcams.com/Company/CC/cam-specs/Details.aspx?csid=843&sb=2

Installing the cam "straight up" makes idle quality and idle vacuum worse (it may add some power at the top of the rpm band).

If you go back to the 4150, make sure the power valves are appropriately sized. This may help. https://ac17cb7e3cc3506f0d23-7386afb7d61f5e5af0e5a817d2877bfe.ssl.cf1.rackcdn.com/techlibrary_carburetor_tech_info.pdf

Let us know how things go. Chuck
I agree with this 100%



Comp says to install it 4 degrees advanced on a 106 degree ICL. http://www.compcams.com/Company/CC/cam-specs/Details.aspx?csid=843&sb=2

Installing the cam "straight up" makes idle quality and idle vacuum worse (it may add some power at the top of the rpm band).

If you go back to the 4150, make sure the power valves are appropriately sized. This may help. https://ac17cb7e3cc3506f0d23-7386afb7d61f5e5af0e5a817d2877bfe.ssl.cf1.rackcdn.com/techlibrary_carburetor_tech_info.pdf

Let us know how things go. Chuck
I agree with this 100%

 
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