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Fuel delivery question regarding fuel pump


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I would think if heads were milled the pushrods would end up too long, how would that create extra noise? Am I think about this wrong?

Bright lime 72 Mach 1 with 351C 4V, with summit 600 carb(have a Holley too), Edelbrock dual-plane manifold, Hooker headers, 3 inch exhaust with flowmasters, 17 inch Eleanor wheels, FMX tranny, A/C, P/S, front disks and 350 rear gear. Drive it to work every day.

 

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I would think if heads were milled the pushrods would end up too long, how would that create extra noise? Am I think about this wrong?

 

Nope, not wrong.

 

I think Chuck knows what's going on here...

Pete - MotoArts Decals and Signs

'71 Sportsroof 351C-4V/4-speed - FINALLY under construction - no, wait, on hold again...

'90 Mustang 7-Up 5.0 ragtop, rolling beater - SOLD

'66 Sunbeam Tiger Mk.IA, survivor

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While they're at it, have the shop look at the seal for the water outlet/thermostat housing. Looks as if someone sealed it with RTV instead of putting a gasket.

 

FYI - if the bog on acceleration remains after these yokels get your valvetrain done right (they certainly failed the first time, as that video proves), check the color/size of the accelerator pump cam on your Holley's throttle linkage:

 

20-12.jpg

 

I was getting a bog on acceleration with the '78 Mark V when I first put a Holley 4160 on its 400. I think it had the pink cam on the carb when I started, and I had to go up a few sizes. The problem is gone at all but the most aggressive requests for WOT, which have a bit of a bog. One size up or a slightly different cam pattern would probably do the trick.

 

-Kurt

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How to buy a '71-73 Mustang:

Rule #1: Assume all classic car sellers are guilty until proven innocent.

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Tougher to do right with OEM non-adjustable "shoe" rocker. You will need a appropriate dial indicator set up, and know what the proper preload for the lifters you are using is. It varies somewhat from vendor to vendor. Basically with the lifter on the base circle (lowest place) and the pushrod in place, at zero lash, the dial indicator on the pushrod side of the rocker at the oil hole and parallel to the pushrod, tighten the bolt to spec. while looking to see how much the dial indicator moves. Compare that to the pre-load value desired. If it is significantly out of spec., too deep/too long, do the math to determine how much too long. Check one intake and one exhaust. If it is about .015 to about .050 too long you may be able to use rectangular shims between the bottom of the fulcrum and the pedestal on the head. The option is a shorter pushrod. If the pushrod is too short (I don't see that in your case, unless they were changed?), a longer pushrod is the only realistic solution. The common pushrods come in .050 length increments($). The not so common ones can be anything you want ($$).

 

Here is one alternative process from Comp Cams.

"Setting Hydraulic Lifter Pre-load (Non-Adjustable Valve Train)

COMP Cams® recommends using an adjustable pushrod to check the pre-load . Typically, only one cylinder needs to be checked in this process . After applying lube, install the adjustable pushrods and assemble the valve train . Using the same procedure mentioned earlier, adjust the intake and exhaust valves to zero lash by changing the length of the adjustable pushrod for precise fitment. Order a pushrod that is .020"- .070" longer than the pushrod length at zero lash to ensure the proper pre-load."

 

Ask the "mechanic" how much the heads were milled (have they been milled before?) what the installed spring heights are, and what procedure was used to break-in the cam and lifters. Then tell him the symptoms and ask how he proposes to resolve the problem.

 

Remote starter switch to turn the engine using the starter (key off). http://www.autozone.com/autozone/accessories/Tools-Garage-and-Equipment/Remote-Starter-Switch/_/N-25eo

 

The "mechanic" should be doing this. Pull the valve covers, key off, rotate the engine to see if some of the rockers never have the slack taken up. If so, I doubt it is good news. Next step is pull the intake to inspect the lifters and cam lobe surfaces

 

One example of break-in procedure. http://www.cranecams.com/uploads/breakin/548e.pdf

 

I hope it all works out. Chuck

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+2

 

I agree

73 Grande

351C 2v

Now 4v Carb/Cam/headers/T5

 

Gasoline is for washing parts.

Alcohol is for drinking.

Nitomethane is for racing!

 

 

Work in Progress photos here:

Last Update: 4/23/16

 

http://s1270.photobucket.com/user/therocket366/library/?sort=3&page=1

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

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If the heads were milled, wouldn't the pushrods be too long. That being the case, why would I have so much clatter? They did replace a few bent pushrods but I have no idea how they decided on length. I will call in the morning and ask.

 

Is there an option to buy a rocker arm that can be adjusted to set gaps properly? I will take the car elsewhere to do this. I am getting a bit frustrated with the whole thing to be perfectly honest because I turned in my lease and I don't have time to leave my car in the shop. I should not have had to adjust rear and front float but I did. This is really starting to piss me off. Went and asked my friend about his newly rebuilt Cleveland and he sold the car a week ago with engine for 1600, I was bumbed because it was going to be mine.

Bright lime 72 Mach 1 with 351C 4V, with summit 600 carb(have a Holley too), Edelbrock dual-plane manifold, Hooker headers, 3 inch exhaust with flowmasters, 17 inch Eleanor wheels, FMX tranny, A/C, P/S, front disks and 350 rear gear. Drive it to work every day.

 

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Is his the correct method. I like videos because it is a lot easier for me to follow. In other words, I am not a by the book kind of guy. I have successfully torn my sporty apart a gazillion times and this should be easy. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=piifbQtCzno

Bright lime 72 Mach 1 with 351C 4V, with summit 600 carb(have a Holley too), Edelbrock dual-plane manifold, Hooker headers, 3 inch exhaust with flowmasters, 17 inch Eleanor wheels, FMX tranny, A/C, P/S, front disks and 350 rear gear. Drive it to work every day.

 

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Yes

IF YOU HAVE ADJUSTABLE ROCKER ARMS

 

From the factory a 351c has bolts that hold the rocker down without the ability to adjust them like in the video.

The adjustment is made with a different length pushrod.

 

c9zx gave you a link to the work-around conversion to convert a 351c to adjustable type rockers like the video.

 

you need to look to see what your rocker arm style is.

 

Regards

Paul

73 Grande

351C 2v

Now 4v Carb/Cam/headers/T5

 

Gasoline is for washing parts.

Alcohol is for drinking.

Nitomethane is for racing!

 

 

Work in Progress photos here:

Last Update: 4/23/16

 

http://s1270.photobucket.com/user/therocket366/library/?sort=3&page=1

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

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I am planning to buy the bits and pieces needed to put on adjustable rockers. Was hoping to find a kit with all the parts. Can't find one at Summit. IS there a standard push rod? 5/16 or 3/8 for a 72 Cleveland or take out and measure?

Bright lime 72 Mach 1 with 351C 4V, with summit 600 carb(have a Holley too), Edelbrock dual-plane manifold, Hooker headers, 3 inch exhaust with flowmasters, 17 inch Eleanor wheels, FMX tranny, A/C, P/S, front disks and 350 rear gear. Drive it to work every day.

 

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One here I was looking at:

 

http://www.summitracing.com/parts/crn-52655-16?seid=srese1&gclid=CKeNrbXLrcECFQemaQodfGoA7w

 

I would get some roller rockers to go with it.

 

Regards

Paul

73 Grande

351C 2v

Now 4v Carb/Cam/headers/T5

 

Gasoline is for washing parts.

Alcohol is for drinking.

Nitomethane is for racing!

 

 

Work in Progress photos here:

Last Update: 4/23/16

 

http://s1270.photobucket.com/user/therocket366/library/?sort=3&page=1

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

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What ratio rocker arm is required for a 351?

Bright lime 72 Mach 1 with 351C 4V, with summit 600 carb(have a Holley too), Edelbrock dual-plane manifold, Hooker headers, 3 inch exhaust with flowmasters, 17 inch Eleanor wheels, FMX tranny, A/C, P/S, front disks and 350 rear gear. Drive it to work every day.

 

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351C and 429/460 use the same rocker and are 1.72 ratio.

 

Ralph, was the valvetrain quiet when you brought it home, and got progressively louder with use?

Pete - MotoArts Decals and Signs

'71 Sportsroof 351C-4V/4-speed - FINALLY under construction - no, wait, on hold again...

'90 Mustang 7-Up 5.0 ragtop, rolling beater - SOLD

'66 Sunbeam Tiger Mk.IA, survivor

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Hold on here -

 

Before Ralph starts spending more money to modify everything to adjustable rockers, shouldn't he at least take a look under the intake and valve covers and run Chuck's dial indicator test?

 

What's to say that the shop didn't use assembly lube on the cam and lifters? Wiped lobes/lifters will cause the lifters to sit lower in their bores or stick from mushrooming:

 

8xivcl.jpg

 

Did the shop change the valves? If so, were the valves and heads cut so that the stems sit at their correct height?

 

-Kurt

satellite-valiant-mustang-license-tags-signature.png

How to buy a '71-73 Mustang:

Rule #1: Assume all classic car sellers are guilty until proven innocent.

Rule #2: No classic car dealer is ever innocent; thus, they are all guilty.

Rule #3: Buy from trustworthy people: Fellow forum members. Visit 7173Mustang's For Sale forum.

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What ratio rocker arm is required for a 351?

The Crane conversion kit is for 5/16 diameter pushrods. Get seamless Chrome Moly, .080 wall (min). Pushrod flex is not you friend on a street car. If you are springing for the adjustable valve train, the geometry should be optimized and that will determine the pushrod length.

)

 

The video you linked is pretty general with lots of "rule of thumb" information. The one full turn after zero lash results in .050 preload if the the threads are 20 tpi. That may or may not be in tolerance depending on who built the lifter. The 12 o'clock- 5 o'clock crank spin may work or not depending on the cam profile. The video poster was a Chevy guy, thought #5 was #1. Read this, 5th post down, Cam King. http://www.speedtalk.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=1&t=23748

The stock rocker ratio is 1.73. Do not let someone talk you into using BBC rockers, not the same. All roller rocker are not created equal do the research to find one that has a good reputation for reliability and ratio accuracy. Chuck

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Kurt, my assumptions are that all was done correctly but the video tells otherwise. I agree that pulling the covers for a cursory check is the first thing that needs to be done. My car made a lot of noise before I brought it to the shop. Maybe the pushrods have been another problem from the beginning. I am in busy season and work all the time so taking time to do this on my daily driver is not an option at the moment. I have to drive it to work and it is certainly way to noisy on startup. It quiets significantly on the drive home. I am hearing all kinds of things when it is cold including detonation I think. Similar to clakity clak but different and accelerator initiated when cold, less when hot. I will have to also buy a jet kit and try to get the jetting right as well. I have so much to do and no time. I wish I had had more time to get it right before I needed to drive. I hope nothing breaks before I have time to do this correctly and learn a little along the way, The leaking oil simply pisses me off because they took my clean no oil leaking car and turned it into the kind of leaky vehicle I don't like. Have to park on the street to save my driveway from the mess.

Bright lime 72 Mach 1 with 351C 4V, with summit 600 carb(have a Holley too), Edelbrock dual-plane manifold, Hooker headers, 3 inch exhaust with flowmasters, 17 inch Eleanor wheels, FMX tranny, A/C, P/S, front disks and 350 rear gear. Drive it to work every day.

 

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I have to drive it to work and it is certainly way to noisy on startup. It quiets significantly on the drive home.

 

Significantly? As in nearly no noise at the end of the day?

 

If so, I would suspect a severe oil delivery issue to the top end more than pushrod length.

 

Did the shop do anything to the galleries? Did the shop report any sludge in the block? Was the oil sump changed to a non-stock unit?

 

-Kurt

satellite-valiant-mustang-license-tags-signature.png

How to buy a '71-73 Mustang:

Rule #1: Assume all classic car sellers are guilty until proven innocent.

Rule #2: No classic car dealer is ever innocent; thus, they are all guilty.

Rule #3: Buy from trustworthy people: Fellow forum members. Visit 7173Mustang's For Sale forum.

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Oil pressure gauge reads between 35 and 60 psi depending on position of gas peddle. At idle the car is at 35 to 40 psi when hot.

Bright lime 72 Mach 1 with 351C 4V, with summit 600 carb(have a Holley too), Edelbrock dual-plane manifold, Hooker headers, 3 inch exhaust with flowmasters, 17 inch Eleanor wheels, FMX tranny, A/C, P/S, front disks and 350 rear gear. Drive it to work every day.

 

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Fuel pump took a crap today. I was stranded on the way to work so I found out how to pull it with a tow strap. Awesome.

Bright lime 72 Mach 1 with 351C 4V, with summit 600 carb(have a Holley too), Edelbrock dual-plane manifold, Hooker headers, 3 inch exhaust with flowmasters, 17 inch Eleanor wheels, FMX tranny, A/C, P/S, front disks and 350 rear gear. Drive it to work every day.

 

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Sorry to hear that, sounds like you are not having much luck with the car. I hope things improve for you.

351w - Ford racing GT40X 178 cc aluminum heads - Ford racing(crane) 1.7 roller rockers - Comp Cams 280H magnum cam .544" / .544" lift - ARP hardware - hedman longtubes - magnaflow exhaust with X pipe - Duraspark - MSD digital 6al box - MSD TFI coil - optima red top battery - tuff stuff 140 amp alternator - weiand stealth intake  - edelbrock 1406 600 carb  - march pullies and brackets - Be cool fan controller - derale electric fan - FMX trans - motive 4.11 gears - traction lok - lakewood traction bars.                                            

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

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Mike, nothing a pile of money and a decent mechanic can't solve. I suspected the fuel pump was intermittent but it is now dead. Fuel going in but nothing coming out. I will fix it tomorrow in my parking lot at work and try again. I think this might solve some of the issues I have been chasing.

Bright lime 72 Mach 1 with 351C 4V, with summit 600 carb(have a Holley too), Edelbrock dual-plane manifold, Hooker headers, 3 inch exhaust with flowmasters, 17 inch Eleanor wheels, FMX tranny, A/C, P/S, front disks and 350 rear gear. Drive it to work every day.

 

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Mike, nothing a pile of money and a decent mechanic can't solve. I suspected the fuel pump was intermittent but it is now dead. Fuel going in but nothing coming out. I will fix it tomorrow in my parking lot at work and try again. I think this might solve some of the issues I have been chasing.

 

The pile of money isn't the issue as much as it is to find a decent mechanic - and I dare say the decent mechanic can do it cheaper, because he doesn't have to fix 2,392 things that are NOT wrong with the engine before he fixes what is wrong with the engine.

 

You know, that fuel pump might have prevented you from wrecking your engine. Might be a bit of good luck that it failed.

 

-Kurt

satellite-valiant-mustang-license-tags-signature.png

How to buy a '71-73 Mustang:

Rule #1: Assume all classic car sellers are guilty until proven innocent.

Rule #2: No classic car dealer is ever innocent; thus, they are all guilty.

Rule #3: Buy from trustworthy people: Fellow forum members. Visit 7173Mustang's For Sale forum.

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Well, the fuel pump was the source of some of the racket. I am once again back in business. I changed the pump in the work parking lot and my car seems to run a whole lot better than before. I will take on the rocker clatter soon. I will report out when I get around to it.

 

New question, do any of you have rattle free cars. The fancy flip down rear seat seems to be a source of a crap load of noise. Time to flip it down and see if it helps.

Bright lime 72 Mach 1 with 351C 4V, with summit 600 carb(have a Holley too), Edelbrock dual-plane manifold, Hooker headers, 3 inch exhaust with flowmasters, 17 inch Eleanor wheels, FMX tranny, A/C, P/S, front disks and 350 rear gear. Drive it to work every day.

 

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No rattles from mine, then again I've got a huge speaker box in the trunk jammed up against the trap door:)

351w - Ford racing GT40X 178 cc aluminum heads - Ford racing(crane) 1.7 roller rockers - Comp Cams 280H magnum cam .544" / .544" lift - ARP hardware - hedman longtubes - magnaflow exhaust with X pipe - Duraspark - MSD digital 6al box - MSD TFI coil - optima red top battery - tuff stuff 140 amp alternator - weiand stealth intake  - edelbrock 1406 600 carb  - march pullies and brackets - Be cool fan controller - derale electric fan - FMX trans - motive 4.11 gears - traction lok - lakewood traction bars.                                            

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

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