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Major Paint Problems!!! NEW PICS!!! DONE!!!!


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Hey guys. Just thought I would ask some of the guys here about an issue I had when painting a door over the weekend. Now, I am NOT a painter!!! I can weld just about anything, paint not so much. But I have been getting better and better at it. So a friend of mine needed a door and piece of ground effects shot for his daughters chevy HHR. Figured ok, what the hell. Sanded the door down. Ground down any rust spots, very minor. Slapped some putty on some small spots. Sanded it all down nice. Sprayed it with high build primer. Primer went down really nice. Sanded it all down. I was using all OMNI products, cheaper than PPG. Used everything that was recommended by the manufacturer. ALL OMINI. When I went to shoot the paint everything went BAD. I have shot a couple cars before and never had this happen. But it fisheyed EVERYWHERE and would not stick at all!!!! To me it looks like something contaminated the panels before I shot them. But I followed the same routine that I did with the primer?? After sanding, blow it all off with air. Wipe it down with the recommended cleaner OMNI mx190. Let it dry off then wipe it down with tack rag and shoot. Im wondering if my rag had something on it???? It was new rag but something definitely went wrong. I was using the OMNI plus paint base/clear. After shooting the door you could actually see the wipe marks from my rag. WTF??? I have a bunch of pics I will post and please let me know what you guys think. Heres the kicker too. I had a piece of 4'x4' sheetmetal that I used for a test piece. I just scuffed it with red scotch brite, then wiped it down with brake cleen. Shot it and it layed down perfect!!! Double WTF??? Did I not wait long enough for the OMNI mx190 to flash off??? Or do you think my rag could have been contaminated??? I sanded it all back off and will probably give it another try tonight or tomorrow. I was also told to wash the parts down with dawn dish soap and water. blow dry thoroughly, then wipe down with rubbing alcohol and to skip the MX190 cleaner??? Sorry for being so long winded but it just sucks because this paint was $80 a pint!!! Any advice of help will be great. Thanks guys!!!!

 

Door when I got it.

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Primer layed down nice.

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Then everything went BAD!!!

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Then I tried putting on a few more really light coats and it would just run off!! Only did this one piece like that to try.

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Heres the test panel I shot. This was after my 7 year-old decided to write his name on it. But it turned out really good. Hard to tell from pic. But it stuck!

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UPCLOSE of test panel!! LOOKED GOOD!

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Then sand it all back off!!! HELP guys!!! What to do now???

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Kevin
1971 Mach 1

408C Stroker - C4 w/3,000 stall - 8.8" Rear w/3.73's - Disc brakes all way around.

 

 

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I can't give much advice on painting, I usually get a lot of good information on painting and bodywork from this website www.autobodystore.com Look under forums. Hope this helps. Ryan.

1973 Mach 1, Porsche Guards Red, 429/C6

1972 Mach 1, Grabber Blue, 302/C4, currently under construction

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Brake clean not flashed off completely? soaks into primer really well.

Wipe panel with wax/grease remover prior to sanding? contaminated air supply?

Live, Laugh, love

ECTA, Ohio mile Landspeed record holder

C/GALT-136.36, AA/FALT 159.38 mph, New B/GALT Record 180.577mph- speed is the need !

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Brake clean not flashed off completely? soaks into primer really well.

Wipe panel with wax/grease remover prior to sanding? contaminated air supply?

 

I didn't use brake clean on the good parts just my 4x4 test panel and it turned out great. The door was horrible. I used the Omni mx190 cleaner. Its wax grease remover.

 

I haven't talked to Omni. I am stopping by the paint shop today and see what they say.

Kevin
1971 Mach 1

408C Stroker - C4 w/3,000 stall - 8.8" Rear w/3.73's - Disc brakes all way around.

 

 

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Sorry to hear about your misfortune. You need to get a hold of Austin Vert (Greg)!!

 

LOL..... Already did. :D He has helped me out before. Trying to find a time we can talk. Time differences are huge from there to here.

Kevin
1971 Mach 1

408C Stroker - C4 w/3,000 stall - 8.8" Rear w/3.73's - Disc brakes all way around.

 

 

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Had recent problems similar to this when I used a soda blaster to strip and prep a motorcycle frame on my 73 Norton. Washed down frame with cleaner and then primered with etch primer then sanded and sealed. Then used a ceramic based paint for top coat. Had to spray on extra thick cause it started to run like it wasn't sticking. Later the paint lifted off in sheets after it dried including primer. Soda blasting works good but best wash with soap and water the cleaner solvents just sorta smear a film that can't be seen. Just sharing don't know if this relates to your problem. I Like using Omni products. I'd contact them they may give you an answer and a break and maybe replace the materials. Good luck!

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Had recent problems similar to this when I used a soda blaster to strip and prep a motorcycle frame on my 73 Norton. Washed down frame with cleaner and then primered with etch primer then sanded and sealed. Then used a ceramic based paint for top coat. Had to spray on extra thick cause it started to run like it wasn't sticking. Later the paint lifted off in sheets after it dried including primer. Soda blasting works good but best wash with soap and water the cleaner solvents just sorta smear a film that can't be seen. Just sharing don't know if this relates to your problem. I Like using Omni products. I'd contact them they may give you an answer and a break and maybe replace the materials. Good luck!

Yeah that's what I have been hearing. I will probably go home finish sanding it, then wash it with dawn and hot water, risne really well. Blow dry. Make sure its dry as a bone. wipe it down with alcohol, then tack rag. Hopefully that will do it. I will see what the paint store has to say after work today.


Had recent problems similar to this when I used a soda blaster to strip and prep a motorcycle frame on my 73 Norton. Washed down frame with cleaner and then primered with etch primer then sanded and sealed. Then used a ceramic based paint for top coat. Had to spray on extra thick cause it started to run like it wasn't sticking. Later the paint lifted off in sheets after it dried including primer. Soda blasting works good but best wash with soap and water the cleaner solvents just sorta smear a film that can't be seen. Just sharing don't know if this relates to your problem. I Like using Omni products. I'd contact them they may give you an answer and a break and maybe replace the materials. Good luck!

Yeah that's what I have been hearing. I will probably go home finish sanding it, then wash it with dawn and hot water, risne really well. Blow dry. Make sure its dry as a bone. wipe it down with alcohol, then tack rag. Hopefully that will do it. I will see what the paint store has to say after work today.

Kevin
1971 Mach 1

408C Stroker - C4 w/3,000 stall - 8.8" Rear w/3.73's - Disc brakes all way around.

 

 

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something definitely contaminated the part..The dawn is a start..I'd throw the rags out..and everything else you used to wipe clean sand that part.. use denatured alcohol to clean the part your guns your air hose..I'd also check the air hose..separator..empty drain compressor..You have something silicone or oil based in the shop that caused that OR the part could have been contaminated came that way from your friend (interior silicone shine products used )

LOVE OF BEAUTY IS TASTE..THE CREATION OF BEAUTY IS ART

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^^ What Q said. ^^

It's not the paint...

Pete - MotoArts Decals and Signs

'71 Sportsroof 351C-4V/4-speed - FINALLY under construction - no, wait, on hold again...

'90 Mustang 7-Up 5.0 ragtop, rolling beater - SOLD

'66 Sunbeam Tiger Mk.IA, survivor

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Yep "Q" hit on the head don't use anything you used before, silicone fish eyes have ruined more than one painters day thats for sure. Im guessing your air supply is ok because the other 4x4 test part laid down nice but don't leave anything unchecked. Contaminated panel. Im not thrilled about the brake cleaner personally, I know you said you didn't use it on the other parts but Im just not thrilled about using brake clean as a pre cleaner. Use the pre cleaner recommended by the manufacturer of the paint product. Sorry for your problems but there isn't a real painter out there that haven't had to solve these types of issues. So you just took one step closer to being a real painter :)

Dennis

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Definately the rag! Also I'd be careful with blowing it off with air. Pay special attention to make sure no oil is coming from your air line. You will see it as moisture specks on recently sanded primer. Good luck.

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I wouldn't recommend ever using brake clean before painting. I always clean the panel with a glass cleaner with ammonia in it before I ever start to sand the ammonia will clean off any wax or contaminants that may be on it. Sanding before cleaning is not wise whatever is on the panel will only get pushed down into the material you are sanding. sand do whatever body work that needs to be done clean with ammonia again then prime. Sand the primer, wash with soap and water let dry and clean again with ammonia then clean with the recommended cleaner for whatever paint you are using before spraying any color. YOU CAN NEVER CLEAN TO MUCH

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Hi Kevin,

 

I've sent you a PM as a follow up. For the forum's benefit, here is a summary of contamination issues explained in more detail.

 

CONTAMINATION.

 

Fish eyes, cratering, popping and silicone finish, can be caused by many things. Auto paints when being applied, are very sensitive to contamination issues. Most people don't know that or take that for granted. I will give you a list below of things that can cause contamination issues. Working out what was your specific cause is like solving a murder mystery. It's a process of elimination when going through the clues and evidence. Bad contamination also affects the adhesion factor of the paint film to bind properly to the substrate. From your pics, you are a victim of aggressive contamination here, not mild. Let's start with your new spray gun.

 

1.GUN ISSUES.

Most gun companies oil their newly made guns inside and out before they box and ship them out with gun oil. This is very bad news for the painter , because if you don't clean/flush your gun inside and out with heaps of thinners before you go to use it for the first time, you will get major contamination probs when applying your base and clear coats. Be careful not to ruin any internal gun seals by over excessive use of thinners, eg. don't soak your gun in thinners.

 

2. CONTAMINATION ON THE WIND AND AIR.

Drift contamination. This is a BIG one! Silicone is the worst offender here. It can float and drift on the air and wind currents for hundreds of yards, and contaminate your panels as you are spraying. It's very important to make sure your immediate and surrounding area you're spraying in is free of any sources of oils, waxes, silicones, lubricants, household cleaners, even the wife cooking a greasy fatty dinner on the stove, and air can drift from the kitchen out to your garage or spraying area. Neighbourhood activities and neighbours doing some activities, that can cause contam probs to happen . etc where contaminating VAPORS may drift around on the air and contaminate your panels. Very important!

 

3. CONTAMINATION THROUGH DIRECT CONTACT, TRANSFER AND AIR.

This one takes in a variety of situations. They are,...... Sweat and body oil on hands touching the panels to be sprayed. Wiping and cleaning rags that have substances, oils or chemicals on them already that would shed out,transfer to the job, and cause contam probs. Using cheap wax and grease removers prior to painting. Also, it's important to apply your quality wax & grease remover on your panel, then immediately wipe and dry any excess off with a fresh dry wiper . If you don't, that can cause contam probs as well. Your auto paint store should sell you a proper box of wipers just for this purpose. Be careful of some brands of tack rags or tack cloths as they can contam your surface as well. I don't use them myself. Make sure that there are no upholstery panels where Armoral dressings or silicone type dressings have been used. That will most certainly cause major contam probs to happen. Fish oils and waxy type rust coatings applied to inner panel cavities, can cause contam probs as well. Check to see that you are not getting ANY compressor oil or water coming through your air lines. If you get the smallest amount, it will cause contam probs for sure. Check your regulator for any evidence of this that may be happening. Clean at intervals, and drain your regulator and compressor when water starts to build up.If oil has contaminated an air line, throw it away and buy a new one, as the oil residue on the inside walls of the hose, will cause ongoing contam probs to happen. Don't use foreign or household cleaning products to help clean or prep up your panels prior to painting. Some leave residue chemicals that lead to contam probs as well. Sand parts and panels down with town water, but immediately chamois dry your panel straight after sanding as the chemicals and salts in the water can cause contam issues as well if left to dry on their own without drying assistance. Also, any mixing rulers, mixing containers or vessels, must be free on contamination as well. Make sure your clothes that you are wearing don't have any contaminating substances or chemicals on them when spraying. Some washing powders and fabric softeners can cause contam probs as well. Better to buy a spray suit from your auto paint store when spraying. Keep hands as clean as possible leading up to the application of the paint. If you don't use latex gloves, wash your hands with wax and grease remover to remove the body oils temporarily from your hands. Avoid using silicone drops additives. They cause more on going problems then they try to solve. Make sure your airline is free from any contaminating substances it may have picked up from lying on the ground or resting on a surface that was contaminated itself. Don't spray with you wearing any hair oils, mouses etc, they can be a prob as well. Keep any Vasoline jelly well away from the spraying area. So move from wet sanding your panels, into proper drying off, and use wax and grease remover at any stage you want to combat contam issues. Most important just before you spray. This basic technique should be what you need to avoid trouble with contamination. Don't have your compressor located in the same area that you are spraying in, as that can cause contam probs as well. Try to avoid detailing or waxing your car in the same area as you would be painting in, as residual contaminants will cause contam probs to occur.

 

4. PRE CONTAMINATED PANELS.

There are some types of waxes and sealers out there that are very powerful and because the paint film is like human skin , it breathes, and lets these waxes, silicones and chemicals penetrate deep into the paint film, even down too and into the metal. They can re release and weep up through the existing paint film to re contaminate your panel surface you are trying to spray. Washing several times with wax and grease remover can help to eliminate this problem, but is not always a guarantee to work. When washing several times over, it's important to use fresh wipers every time you do a wash and dry run.

 

5.RECOMENDATIONS.

Auto paints alone in their own right, should not and don't cause contam probs.. unless you are a victim of a batch of contaminated paint. Very unlikely though. The best way of avoiding contam issues is to spray in a clean spray booth, suit up with a clean spray suit,use a quality wax & grease remover and wash and wipe off throughally, have a super clean air supply, use the proper wipers, wear latex gloves, and watch out for tack rags causing problems. Tip..... when applying your base coat and clear coat, try laying your first coat on lightly to dry. This will be a visual test to see if you are going to get contam reaction issues. Dumping a full wet coat of clear on straight away, means you're then locked in if bad contam reveals itself, whereas in some cases, applying light coats slowly, can get you 'round the contam prob from magnifying itself more. Searching on the net will probably bring even more info to learn about on this subject than i have covered here.That then, probably covers most of it.

 

Greg. (Pro painter) ;)

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:whistling: LORD, MR FORD - JERRY REED

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WOW guys, thank you for all the replies and advice!! I did take Q's advice and threw out all my rags and anything else that could of caused the problem. Bought new wipes from the autobody paint store last night. I showed them the pics and they said something was contaminated also. They are great people, even gave me another pint of paint mixed up for FREE! Really nice of them!! Also thanks GREG!! That's a lot of information. I believe my trouble lays somewhere in 4! I think the door was pre-contaminated. And as I sanded I probably buried it deeper into the panel. Or?? From some research I did, I believe the Chevy HHR's were painted with a waterbourne paint. I am trying to scuff and paint over that with solvent based paint. Would that cause this type of reaction????

 

Well last night I wiped everything down with wax and grease remover OMNI mx190 as instructed by manufacture. Used lots of clean NEW towels provided by the paint shop. Sanded the crap out of everything. Blew off the panels with air. Wiped it all down again changing out cloths a lot and wiping any excess off. Blew off again. Used alcohol to wipe panels down again. Blew off. Then tack ragged everything. READY to PAINT! Shot the body moldings and ground effects and they turned out perfect. As soon as I started on the door it all went BAD AGAIN!!! Seems like anywhere that I primered, the paint stuck well. Anywhere that was just scuffed to shoot went to hell! The body moldings and ground effects were completely primered and they turned out really nice last night. The door was only primered on the bottom where body work was done and the top was scuffed. And the paint wont stick at all to that part! Could this be a reaction with the original base coat of waterbourne paint??? What I am thinking of doing now is stripping the door down to bare metal. Prime whole door then I know I have a good base. What do you guys think??? Thanks to everyone that has replied!! You all have been a great help. And especially Greg! The new gun you recommended is AWESOME. It lays paint and clear down like glass!!! I really like it. WAY better than my old harbor freight gun LOL:D Heres a bunch of pics for you guys to see how the 2 different bases seem to be reacting to each other!! I don't know if that's possible.....or if the door was just that contaminated that its way deep down in the paint......

 

Door PICS!!! BAD BAD BAD!!!

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I know its not my gun, my settings, or my air because these were shot at same time. I think door is very contaminated or reacting with the base coats. This is right after the basecoat was applied.

 

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These pics are after the clear was shot. These pieces turned out great, so I'm pretty confident all my settings are correct. Man I love my new gun. I have never been able to lay down clear so smooth. Just wish the damn door would cooperate!!! :huh:

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Kevin
1971 Mach 1

408C Stroker - C4 w/3,000 stall - 8.8" Rear w/3.73's - Disc brakes all way around.

 

 

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Kevin,

 

Thanks for the new feedback. Very interesting indeed. Firstly, you don't get contam probs like this when you spray over water based paint per say. All the evidence you have given here, points to the door itself having major contamination problems associated with it on it's own. To me, it looks like the problem is most likely to be pre panel contamination and possibly what's behind or inside the panel causing this reaction to occur.

 

Where you have primed, you are not getting reaction. The original remaining areas you are. That points to the substrate being contaminated with some sort of wax or sealer or chemical that is weeping and leaching back up to the surface and causing ongoing reaction probs. That's going to be hard to remedy if that's the case. Stripping everything back to metal may provide the answer, but not be a guarantee to remedy the problem would you believe. As an quick get out of jail option, you could consider priming the entire panel and then refinishing again. This may work for you to keep the reaction prob at bay. Consider too, that inside the panel may have coatings that are causing this problem to happen as well. When masking up, try to completely isolate the inner sections with masking tape to help stop any vapor weeping out from inside the panel. That would be a great help too.

 

Don't forget to wash / dry off, wash / dry off several times with your wax and grease remover as a safe guard to help rid the contam problem from happening over again.I would avoid using alcohol wipes before applying paint. It's not necessary as the w& g remover should do all the work needed. Also, very glad you like the new gun and it's spraying well for you. Let us know how you get on with the door. Your on going feedback is welcomed.

 

Greg.:)

:whistling: LORD, MR FORD - JERRY REED

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Thanks Greg! I will either strip it all down to bare metal and start over or sand it down 1 more time and primer the whole thing and hope the primer don't do that. Just getting tired of sanding this door!!! I probably have 25-30hrs in this stupid thing!! My buddy is gonna owe me several cases of beer for this one!

Don, the door was bought at a junk yard because his daughter had a deer run into the side of her car. So no idea what kind of wax was used by original owner.

Since the other pieces turned out so nice, that at least gives me some hope that the primer will seal it up! I will keep you guys posted. Probably wont get to it till this weekend. if I do strip it to bare metal what is the best method??? should I use a chemical stripper or just a shitload of sanding??? The inside of the door will be hard sanding to bare metal because of all the contours. Thanks again everyone!!!

Kevin
1971 Mach 1

408C Stroker - C4 w/3,000 stall - 8.8" Rear w/3.73's - Disc brakes all way around.

 

 

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Power wash the entire door inside & out with dawn. Then simple green purple..Then dawn again

 

After that I would have the door media blasted inside & out

seal inside interior with rust bullet.

 

Epoxy prime exterior.

Do body work 2 k prime paint..

 

I used to have a procedure for junk yard parts in my shop..I never let them in my shop TILL they were power washed inside & out multiple times..You never know what they have been exposed to

LOVE OF BEAUTY IS TASTE..THE CREATION OF BEAUTY IS ART

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Not being a Debbie Downer here, but I fear that the primer under the new paint may eventually lift (delaminate), taking the paint with it.

 

Also, our new bumpers that we sell are all primed with waterborne. The ONLY recurring problem that we have with waterborne is when a customer preps it with solvent based prep... instead of the correct water based as instructed.

 

About 15 years ago I installed (wasted) about 3 or 4 ready-made graphics kits on a brand new black Lincoln Navigator. First set, I prepped the surface with my usual mineral spirits, wiped dry, then dry wiped again with a new cloth. Graphics peeled at the edges after a few days. Same thing happened again on set #2. Next set, customer tells me that the dealership used some kind of "trick teflon wax" (who knows what it really was). At this point I was up to lacquer thinner prepping this new Navigator... and not feeling very good about it. It failed too. Prior to the final set, after asking around, I wiped with the usual MS, then followed with the simple soapy water solution.

 

The Nav still has that same graphics set on it today.

Have done a thousand+ installs since then on boats, aircraft, Lernerville cars... never one failure.

 

As explained to me, the solvents only smear the (silicone/oils), they will not remove them. The soapy water "floats" the contaminates, allowing the rag to pick them up.

True or not, it has worked for me many times over.

And in your case, hell yes, like Q said, wash the everlovin' shizzle out of those things before proceeding.

Pete - MotoArts Decals and Signs

'71 Sportsroof 351C-4V/4-speed - FINALLY under construction - no, wait, on hold again...

'90 Mustang 7-Up 5.0 ragtop, rolling beater - SOLD

'66 Sunbeam Tiger Mk.IA, survivor

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Thanks guys for the input. I am going to start by scrubbing the hell out of it with soap and water several times. Sand as much as I can down to bare metal. I have some epoxy primer left over from another job. Would that seal it up better than the high build primer?? I don't think my buddy has the money to be getting the door media blasted. Wish he did, it would save me a lot of time. SO scrub the hell out of it, sand it down as far as possible, epoxy prime, body work, highbuild primer, then paint?? Hopefully that will work.

 

My new gun is a Sharpe Finex FX2000. http://www.sharpe1.com/sharpe/sharpe.nsf/Page/Finex+FX2000

I like it a lot and it wasn't too expensive. Just over $100 on ebay. There are much more expensive guns out there but this one works great and fits my needs very well.

Kevin
1971 Mach 1

408C Stroker - C4 w/3,000 stall - 8.8" Rear w/3.73's - Disc brakes all way around.

 

 

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