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pinging, thermostats, cc heads, overheating


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Even with the over bore and the cc heads my mustang never runs hot.

 

Years ago I installed a Mr. Gasket 180 degree thermostat.

Some time after that I swapped on some 4v CC heads, cam and such (see sig)

And it pinged. So I added stuff to control (to some degree) the pinging.

There is a lot more to this story but I have fought the pinging for a long time.

Earlier this week my engine overheated on the freeway. My thermostat had stuck closed. Pulling off there was A LOT of pinging.

 

I went to the local parts store and, of course, they did not have a 'Cleveland' thermostat with the 'hat'. I needed to get the car running so I picked up a cheap non brand name 192 degree thermostat. Swapped them out and done.

Here is a picture of the offending Mr. Gasket 180 thermostat and the receipt for the new generic thermostat.

 

20141212_171746_zps2ead3887.jpg

 

 

The next day I drove it to work. I noticed it wasn't pinging. Maybe a hint here and there but no real pinging. I had to really listen for it. I figured I might have had a good batch of gas and octane boost so decided to wait till I was sure.

 

Today I put in straight 91 octane. No octane boosters. There is 'almost' no pinging. More than with the enhanced gas but MUCH less than before when running on straight 91. (I have been keeping notes). It's almost a miracle. I still have to kind of 'listen' for it. Before if I ran straight 91 it would ping bad enough that I would rev it higher to reduce the load before shifting. And any acceleration I would downshift to reduce the pinging.

 

Needless to say I am both stoked and amazed. My next goal is to get a 'real' Cleveland thermostat. I know the part numbers, a search makes them easy to find, but no local sources means I have to order on the web and everyone seems to use a 'stock' photo.

 

So I post this for anyone doing a search on pinging. Check which TYPE of thermostat you are running. You can see that the 'mr gasket' not only doesn't have the 'hat' that seals the block return but it actually pulls away from the block return. It allows heated water to be circulated back into the engine.

 

All the while my temp gauge showed I was running at or below normal operating range. (Mind you a 40 year old gauge accuracy will always be in question). But even when I would check with a IR gun it showed the flow as being cool.

 

And again, I never had an 'over heating' issue. The car always ran fine other than the pinging. Stop and go traffic was not an issue. Long drives were not an issue. It always showed fine on the temp gauge.

 

If your Cleveland is pinging you might just check which thermostat you are running. Now I get to spend some time with timing, spark plugs and octane boosters all over again... ;)

'Mike'

73 Convertible - 351C/4V CC heads/4bolt/forged flat tops/comp 270/rhodes/mallory unilite/tri-power/hookers/glasspacks/c6/3.50 limited slip/Gear Vendors/Global West sub frames, strut rods and shelby style traction bars/ Rear sway bar/tilt steering (not original)

 

Pics of modifications included in: [button=http://www.7173mustangs.com/thread-1973-convertible--3335]My Garage[/button]

 

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Hey Will E

 

I don't understand the "hat" you refer to?

 

I had a stinkin chrome thermostat housing that was so warped on the block mating surface (PO)

 

I got a CI housing and a stant 180 thermostat from rock auto cheap and job done.

 

BTW back in the day I always just retarded the initial timing to help with the pinging issue.

 

Another trick is to do vacuum retard timing by...

 

Connect Vacuum advance to manifold vacuum source = full advance at idle. Now when you accelerate

the vacuum drops and retards the timing (NO PING) and the mechanical advance will kick in at 25-4500 RPM depending

on the weight and spring setup.

 

Baby Steps Bro TAKE NOTES! and do not make more than one change at a time

 

Paul

73 Grande

351C 2v

Now 4v Carb/Cam/headers/T5

 

Gasoline is for washing parts.

Alcohol is for drinking.

Nitomethane is for racing!

 

 

Work in Progress photos here:

Last Update: 4/23/16

 

http://s1270.photobucket.com/user/therocket366/library/?sort=3&page=1

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

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.

THERMOSTAT

 

Run a stant premium 180 with the bypass block off plate below.

 

http://www2.cougarpartscatalog.com/waterrestrictplate.html

 

if your engine runs hotter thasn around 187 degrees you need to upgrade your cooling system or check your ignition timing . . insufficient yiming will make an engine run warmer than it should.

.

 

IF YOU HAVE 9.5 COMPRESSION OR MORE, TRY A ONE STEP COLDER SPARK PLUG IF IT STILL PINGS WITH THE PARTS ABOVE

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News to me thanks for that post!

73 Grande

351C 2v

Now 4v Carb/Cam/headers/T5

 

Gasoline is for washing parts.

Alcohol is for drinking.

Nitomethane is for racing!

 

 

Work in Progress photos here:

Last Update: 4/23/16

 

http://s1270.photobucket.com/user/therocket366/library/?sort=3&page=1

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

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I think my next step is to try a 'real' 351C thermostat. And now that I have reduced the pinging due to the improper thermostat I can mess with the timing again.

 

I am trying to think back at how long I have had that other thermostat in. It has been a long long time. I keep most receipts so I will see if I can find it.

 

I started taking good notes back in 2013 on different tuning efforts. I also now keep notes on how the car is driving, different the effects of different octane mixes and just how it is driving in general. Normally I don't drive the car much. From April to October it gets driven maybe 10 miles a month if that. I just start it and drive it to keep the parts moving.

 

Even in the 'nice' months here I don't normally drive it much but my wife's Liberty dropped a valve seat so I have it apart. I have driven the mustang almost a thousand miles in the last couple of months. The additional and consistent seat time has not only been fun, but it has me more 'in tune' with how the Mustang is running.

'Mike'

73 Convertible - 351C/4V CC heads/4bolt/forged flat tops/comp 270/rhodes/mallory unilite/tri-power/hookers/glasspacks/c6/3.50 limited slip/Gear Vendors/Global West sub frames, strut rods and shelby style traction bars/ Rear sway bar/tilt steering (not original)

 

Pics of modifications included in: [button=http://www.7173mustangs.com/thread-1973-convertible--3335]My Garage[/button]

 

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Will... I can't remember anything it seems now... the over 50 thing I guess. I keep a hand written log of everything I do to (or with) my car. I include part costs, if I had any trouble with the parts or labor, car show, everything. That way when I hand this car over to my son, he'll have a complete history of the car, hand written by me.

1_24_09_13_4_29_06.png
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These are proper "Cleveland" (and 351M/400) Robert Shaw thermostats. The "hat" should be immediately apparent:

 

16j3eaa.jpg

 

Right one was damaged out of the box. Make sure the hat fits level with the thermostat, as on the left.

 

-Kurt

satellite-valiant-mustang-license-tags-signature.png

How to buy a '71-73 Mustang:

Rule #1: Assume all classic car sellers are guilty until proven innocent.

Rule #2: No classic car dealer is ever innocent; thus, they are all guilty.

Rule #3: Buy from trustworthy people: Fellow forum members. Visit 7173Mustang's For Sale forum.

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Well that messed up my mind. I was wrong about how a 'balanced' thermostat worked. It turns out the entire bottom moves away from the top.

 

http://www.flowkoolerwaterpumps.com/info/thermostat_overview.html

 

The openings on the bottom are to allow the coolant to warm the wax inside, not for actual flow.

 

So far I have only been able to find 'on line' sellers of the correct thermostat. All of them use 'stock' photos that don't show the hat.

 

I would like to find a local source so I can 'touch' it before I buy it...

'Mike'

73 Convertible - 351C/4V CC heads/4bolt/forged flat tops/comp 270/rhodes/mallory unilite/tri-power/hookers/glasspacks/c6/3.50 limited slip/Gear Vendors/Global West sub frames, strut rods and shelby style traction bars/ Rear sway bar/tilt steering (not original)

 

Pics of modifications included in: [button=http://www.7173mustangs.com/thread-1973-convertible--3335]My Garage[/button]

 

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So far I have only been able to find 'on line' sellers of the correct thermostat. All of them use 'stock' photos that don't show the hat.

 

I would like to find a local source so I can 'touch' it before I buy it...

 

You might try asking for a thermostat for a 1977 F-150 with a 400M engine. 351W and 351C are thought to be the same on some data bases and as a result, counter personnel as well. It has worked for me in the past. Chuck

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Thanks Chuck.

I went to the local Napa and they had Napa 197. It has the hat. I have not installed it yet but I did boil it.

 

You can see here the hat and that it moves about 1/2" when fully open:

 

P1030108_zps5a1fc85e.jpg

 

I drove the car again today with the new 'non-cleveland' thermostat and it still pinged less than when I had the Mr. Gasket.

 

I will install this Napa 197 in tomorrow and see what kind of a difference that makes.

'Mike'

73 Convertible - 351C/4V CC heads/4bolt/forged flat tops/comp 270/rhodes/mallory unilite/tri-power/hookers/glasspacks/c6/3.50 limited slip/Gear Vendors/Global West sub frames, strut rods and shelby style traction bars/ Rear sway bar/tilt steering (not original)

 

Pics of modifications included in: [button=http://www.7173mustangs.com/thread-1973-convertible--3335]My Garage[/button]

 

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.

yup, so after the water in your engine gets up to thermostat temp or slightly before it does, the hat lowers blocking off the bypass which in turn prevents around 20% of the water in the engine from going directly thru the rad which causes the engine to run warmer than it normally could . . not the best idea on ac cars or ones that are high perf or have been bored out or on any pantera.

 

.

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Check Jeff's Bronco Graveyard - they might have a few Robert Shaw units still around.

 

-Kurt

satellite-valiant-mustang-license-tags-signature.png

How to buy a '71-73 Mustang:

Rule #1: Assume all classic car sellers are guilty until proven innocent.

Rule #2: No classic car dealer is ever innocent; thus, they are all guilty.

Rule #3: Buy from trustworthy people: Fellow forum members. Visit 7173Mustang's For Sale forum.

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Thanks for the photo Will

 

I understand the "hat' now fully

 

BTW

Look into getting a new tape measure B4 that one cuts ya

73 Grande

351C 2v

Now 4v Carb/Cam/headers/T5

 

Gasoline is for washing parts.

Alcohol is for drinking.

Nitomethane is for racing!

 

 

Work in Progress photos here:

Last Update: 4/23/16

 

http://s1270.photobucket.com/user/therocket366/library/?sort=3&page=1

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

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  • 2 weeks later...

I installed the Napa 197, replacing the 'Windsor' thermostat which replaced the stuck 'mr. gasket non-hat' thermostat.

 

It's a 180 degree unit. The temp gauge never gets into 'normal' now. It barely did before. I think the pickup is inaccurate. This weekend I will mess with my IR gun.

 

But 'generally' the pinging seems to be less notable on straight 91 gas. This would make some sense if I am no longer recirculating heated water back into the block.

 

I can't imagine how long I have been running the 'wrong' thermostat. This, of course, has affected almost every tuning adjustment I have made.

 

So I am going to start messing with timing, spark plugs and such.

 

How interesting something as simple as a thermostat can have such an impact.

 

I don't think I would have ever known if it had not been for the internet. (You young folks don't have any idea how good you have it...)

'Mike'

73 Convertible - 351C/4V CC heads/4bolt/forged flat tops/comp 270/rhodes/mallory unilite/tri-power/hookers/glasspacks/c6/3.50 limited slip/Gear Vendors/Global West sub frames, strut rods and shelby style traction bars/ Rear sway bar/tilt steering (not original)

 

Pics of modifications included in: [button=http://www.7173mustangs.com/thread-1973-convertible--3335]My Garage[/button]

 

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  • 1 month later...

Hey Will E

 

I don't understand the "hat" you refer to?

 

I had a stinkin chrome thermostat housing that was so warped on the block mating surface (PO)

 

I got a CI housing and a stant 180 thermostat from rock auto cheap and job done.

 

BTW back in the day I always just retarded the initial timing to help with the pinging issue.

 

Another trick is to do vacuum retard timing by...

 

Connect Vacuum advance to manifold vacuum source = full advance at idle. Now when you accelerate

the vacuum drops and retards the timing (NO PING) and the mechanical advance will kick in at 25-4500 RPM depending

on the weight and spring setup.

 

Baby Steps Bro TAKE NOTES! and do not make more than one change at a time

 

Paul

741416961_351Thermostats.PNG.b2805f18756021a13fa826ef0da807d5.PNG

1699528285_Bypassthermostatexplained.thumb.PNG.5ec581354ca26bd1c30ff7e5e6701a83.PNG


Hey Will E

 

I don't understand the "hat" you refer to?

 

I had a stinkin chrome thermostat housing that was so warped on the block mating surface (PO)

 

I got a CI housing and a stant 180 thermostat from rock auto cheap and job done.

 

BTW back in the day I always just retarded the initial timing to help with the pinging issue.

 

Another trick is to do vacuum retard timing by...

 

Connect Vacuum advance to manifold vacuum source = full advance at idle. Now when you accelerate

the vacuum drops and retards the timing (NO PING) and the mechanical advance will kick in at 25-4500 RPM depending

on the weight and spring setup.

 

Baby Steps Bro TAKE NOTES! and do not make more than one change at a time

 

Paul

 

 


Hey Will E

 

I don't understand the "hat" you refer to?

 

I had a stinkin chrome thermostat housing that was so warped on the block mating surface (PO)

 

I got a CI housing and a stant 180 thermostat from rock auto cheap and job done.

 

BTW back in the day I always just retarded the initial timing to help with the pinging issue.

 

Another trick is to do vacuum retard timing by...

 

Connect Vacuum advance to manifold vacuum source = full advance at idle. Now when you accelerate

the vacuum drops and retards the timing (NO PING) and the mechanical advance will kick in at 25-4500 RPM depending

on the weight and spring setup.

 

Baby Steps Bro TAKE NOTES! and do not make more than one change at a time

 

Paul

 

 


Hey Will E

 

I don't understand the "hat" you refer to?

 

I had a stinkin chrome thermostat housing that was so warped on the block mating surface (PO)

 

I got a CI housing and a stant 180 thermostat from rock auto cheap and job done.

 

BTW back in the day I always just retarded the initial timing to help with the pinging issue.

 

Another trick is to do vacuum retard timing by...

 

Connect Vacuum advance to manifold vacuum source = full advance at idle. Now when you accelerate

the vacuum drops and retards the timing (NO PING) and the mechanical advance will kick in at 25-4500 RPM depending

on the weight and spring setup.

 

Baby Steps Bro TAKE NOTES! and do not make more than one change at a time

 

Paul

 

 


Hey Will E

 

I don't understand the "hat" you refer to?

 

I had a stinkin chrome thermostat housing that was so warped on the block mating surface (PO)

 

I got a CI housing and a stant 180 thermostat from rock auto cheap and job done.

 

BTW back in the day I always just retarded the initial timing to help with the pinging issue.

 

Another trick is to do vacuum retard timing by...

 

Connect Vacuum advance to manifold vacuum source = full advance at idle. Now when you accelerate

the vacuum drops and retards the timing (NO PING) and the mechanical advance will kick in at 25-4500 RPM depending

on the weight and spring setup.

 

Baby Steps Bro TAKE NOTES! and do not make more than one change at a time

 

Paul

 

 


Hey Will E

 

I don't understand the "hat" you refer to?

 

I had a stinkin chrome thermostat housing that was so warped on the block mating surface (PO)

 

I got a CI housing and a stant 180 thermostat from rock auto cheap and job done.

 

BTW back in the day I always just retarded the initial timing to help with the pinging issue.

 

Another trick is to do vacuum retard timing by...

 

Connect Vacuum advance to manifold vacuum source = full advance at idle. Now when you accelerate

the vacuum drops and retards the timing (NO PING) and the mechanical advance will kick in at 25-4500 RPM depending

on the weight and spring setup.

 

Baby Steps Bro TAKE NOTES! and do not make more than one change at a time

 

Paul

 

 


Hey Will E

 

I don't understand the "hat" you refer to?

 

I had a stinkin chrome thermostat housing that was so warped on the block mating surface (PO)

 

I got a CI housing and a stant 180 thermostat from rock auto cheap and job done.

 

BTW back in the day I always just retarded the initial timing to help with the pinging issue.

 

Another trick is to do vacuum retard timing by...

 

Connect Vacuum advance to manifold vacuum source = full advance at idle. Now when you accelerate

the vacuum drops and retards the timing (NO PING) and the mechanical advance will kick in at 25-4500 RPM depending

on the weight and spring setup.

 

Baby Steps Bro TAKE NOTES! and do not make more than one change at a time

 

Paul

 

 


 

 


Hey Will E

 

I don't understand the "hat" you refer to?

 

I had a stinkin chrome thermostat housing that was so warped on the block mating surface (PO)

 

I got a CI housing and a stant 180 thermostat from rock auto cheap and job done.

 

BTW back in the day I always just retarded the initial timing to help with the pinging issue.

 

Another trick is to do vacuum retard timing by...

 

Connect Vacuum advance to manifold vacuum source = full advance at idle. Now when you accelerate

the vacuum drops and retards the timing (NO PING) and the mechanical advance will kick in at 25-4500 RPM depending

on the weight and spring setup.

 

Baby Steps Bro TAKE NOTES! and do not make more than one change at a time

 

Paul

 

 


Hey Will E

 

I don't understand the "hat" you refer to?

 

I had a stinkin chrome thermostat housing that was so warped on the block mating surface (PO)

 

I got a CI housing and a stant 180 thermostat from rock auto cheap and job done.

 

BTW back in the day I always just retarded the initial timing to help with the pinging issue.

 

Another trick is to do vacuum retard timing by...

 

Connect Vacuum advance to manifold vacuum source = full advance at idle. Now when you accelerate

the vacuum drops and retards the timing (NO PING) and the mechanical advance will kick in at 25-4500 RPM depending

on the weight and spring setup.

 

Baby Steps Bro TAKE NOTES! and do not make more than one change at a time

 

Paul

 

 


Hey Will E

 

I don't understand the "hat" you refer to?

 

I had a stinkin chrome thermostat housing that was so warped on the block mating surface (PO)

 

I got a CI housing and a stant 180 thermostat from rock auto cheap and job done.

 

BTW back in the day I always just retarded the initial timing to help with the pinging issue.

 

Another trick is to do vacuum retard timing by...

 

Connect Vacuum advance to manifold vacuum source = full advance at idle. Now when you accelerate

the vacuum drops and retards the timing (NO PING) and the mechanical advance will kick in at 25-4500 RPM depending

on the weight and spring setup.

 

Baby Steps Bro TAKE NOTES! and do not make more than one change at a time

 

Paul

 

 


 

 


Hey Will E

 

I don't understand the "hat" you refer to?

 

I had a stinkin chrome thermostat housing that was so warped on the block mating surface (PO)

 

I got a CI housing and a stant 180 thermostat from rock auto cheap and job done.

 

BTW back in the day I always just retarded the initial timing to help with the pinging issue.

 

Another trick is to do vacuum retard timing by...

 

Connect Vacuum advance to manifold vacuum source = full advance at idle. Now when you accelerate

the vacuum drops and retards the timing (NO PING) and the mechanical advance will kick in at 25-4500 RPM depending

on the weight and spring setup.

 

Baby Steps Bro TAKE NOTES! and do not make more than one change at a time

 

Paul

 

 


 

 


 

 


1956182996_Robertshaw333seriesthermostat.PNG.2809827c8e1de127eca2cfb22666e65c.PNG

696827622_Robertshaw333thermostat.thumb.PNG.e047fe5b2e5067aacedab2445df0689d.PNG

1129771473_Stant13469onAmazon.PNG.ea4f77b0c5a5b791bf202205bc4b524e.PNG

112851419_Thermostattypes.thumb.PNG.837443654e7e218dc7c2dd66171bf82a.PNG

Don't be afraid to try something new. Remember, amateurs built the Ark...Professionals built the Titanic! ::thumb::

 

 

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Will E

Thanks for posting. We're still in the 500 mile break in on the new rebuild, and I couldn't remember the thermostat being a point of conversation when it was assembled. Not that we've had any heating issues, but I was curious to see what the shop put in ours when they put it together. Glad I did- it's the wrong style, unless I was running a restrictor plate (which we're not currently).

 

So here's the question to the Cleveland crowd:

Based on our build, which is mild to say the least, is it ok to stay with the factory thermostat, or should I go the restrictor plate route? This is an AC car. I think I know Barnetts response. :)

 

Thanks,

Shawn

[button=http://www.7173mustangs.com/thread-1973-mustang-convertible--19017]Visit My Garage[/button]

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Will E

Thanks for posting. We're still in the 500 mile break in on the new rebuild, and I couldn't remember the thermostat being a point of conversation when it was assembled. Not that we've had any heating issues, but I was curious to see what the shop put in ours when they put it together. Glad I did- it's the wrong style, unless I was running a restrictor plate (which we're not currently).

 

So here's the question to the Cleveland crowd:

Based on our build, which is mild to say the least, is it ok to stay with the factory thermostat, or should I go the restrictor plate route? This is an AC car. I think I know Barennts response. :)

 

Thanks,

Shawn

This is where the confusion with many guys comes in. By "restrictor plate" do YOU mean the factory, brass, bypass washer with the 3/4" (.780") hole in the center? or are you correctly using the words "restrictor plate" in describing the aftermarket, aluminum, solid(no hole, except the tiny air hole) restrictor plate?(restricts bypass)


.

yup, so after the water in your engine gets up to thermostat temp or slightly before it does, the hat lowers blocking off the bypass which in turn prevents around 20% of the water in the engine from going directly thru the rad which causes the engine to run warmer than it normally could . . not the best idea on ac cars or ones that are high perf or have been bored out or on any pantera.

 

.

I think ya got that a lil backwards...you may have meant to say that when the engine gets up to thermostat temp and the thermostat opens, it simultaneously closes the port in the brass bypass washer as the "hat lowers." This closing of the brass bypass port washer makes that 20%± of coolant, which would "bypass" to the water pump and cycle back into the engine, go through the radiator. When this occurs, all of the coolant (except the heater core loop) will have much of it's heat extracted as it passes through the radiator (via the airflow through the radiator) before flowing through the lower rad hose to the water pump and onto the engine.


Bottom line...if you want your engine to warm up reasonably quickly, you want the bypass open. If you have the wrong thermostat, with the bypass washer, the bypass will never close. This will allow the 20%± of hot water to have a "short cut" of going right back to the water pump with out having to go through through the radiator. This would be as Barnett468 says "...not the best idea on ac cars or ones that are high perf or have been bored out or on any pantera."

 

.

Don't be afraid to try something new. Remember, amateurs built the Ark...Professionals built the Titanic! ::thumb::

 

 

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I dare say most of you have never worked on or owned a Flathead Ford V-8 239 C.I. stock. They had a reputation of running hot but not a design problem just a mechanic problem unless you had a blown head gasket. People had the idea that if I put a colder thermostat in 165 deg. the car will run colder, NOT. The thermostat opens to allow the water to flow quickly and just stays open most of the time. This caused the water to circulate through the radiator too fast and did not cool so eventually it would overheat. If you ran the hot thermostats yes the water was hotter in the engine but it slowed down the circulation to allow better cooling. When we raced them on the track you were only allow to bore them .080" over and most of us did not run thermostats just put a washer in with a 5/8" hole in it and it would make it through a race and not overheat. I was a die hard flathead guy and ran one on the street until 1971. I was put together with .125" overbore, shaved the heads .100" cut pockets in the heads to clear the valves and ran an Isky .404 radius tappet cam, ported, dual valve springs and balanced. I drove it 20 plus miles each way to school with no overheating problems. The radical cam wore out if about 1,500 miles so I went back with a milder Melling cam and never had any issues with overheating.

I guess I am saying that the water flow is the critical thing in any engine. I guess the Cleveland engines have some hot spots and the system as designed was to take care of that. So be careful of short term gains for long term failure. I would be great to have one on a test stand where you could have control of everything to really find the best cure. All of our trials and errors have too many variables with outside temp, humidity, barometric pressure, fuel etc etc etc. I don't think I would completely shut off the Ford designed flow system but making improvements is what make the world go round. I have 4 Cleveland cars but no heating issues yet. I always run a hot thermostat 192 if memory serves me but have not put one in in 20 years had no reason to.

Great info going on here.

When a man is in the woods and talks and no women are there is he still wrong??:P

David

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If you can't find a t-stat elsewhere, Mustangs Unlimited carries them.

[button=http://www.7173mustangs.com/thread-1973-mustang-convertible--19017]Visit My Garage[/button]

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