351c 680hp

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Dec 26, 2014
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brigham utah
My Car
351c 680hp
Im new to hear but.I ned advice. I got a free stock bore ran when pulled 4v 351c out of a van from my dad. Im looking for advise to see if I can make it 680hp non stroker motor, if not 680hp then 500hp. I dont want to bore it to the max or stoke it. I want to be able to drive it to the street races run it hard then drive it home. As long as it never sees a set of riceburner tail lighs I witll consider it successful. I know go from inward dome pistions to flat top, im geting AFD 64cc heads that say 680hp+ hp out of box but I dont believe it for one second ive ordered a msd ignition kit with module and I have a toploader to back it all up. I have the headers and a 850 holly double pumper carb but I dont lnow what lifters to use or what cam to use or what cam to use that will run hard but still be streetable or a radiator that will cool it or what intake to use even though I have a Edelbrock Torker intake, I need a oil pan but dont know witch one will fit because the truck one is different, or any of the rest of the stuff I will need. Ive owned this mustang sense I was 13 and want to give it the heart it deserves.

 
I'm no mechanic but I do know it takes one serious build to get more than 400 HP out of a Cleveland. If you want upwards of 600+ I'd say you better consider turbocharging.

There will be some other more qualified responses from those who know more about motor building but to meet your requirements turbocharging your motor may be the best option.

Ray

 
I agree with Ray's comments.

I beefed up my motor without stroking it by raising compression, using a performance cam, improved intake/exhaust and I would be luckly even to get close to 500hp. Probably turbocharging or supercharger would be the only way to get the HP with stock displacement. You could go with alot higher compression but then gas quality becomes an issue and its not feasible as a daily driver.

 
500+ hp stock stroke Cleveland is very do able. I will be expensive and careful machining, prep and part selection is paramount.

I have attached a link for a 500+ 2V that's build here in Aus they are crate motors available off the shelf so to speak. You should be able to replicate this combo. Look for the "351 Cleveland 2V Gold Pro Long Engine ( 520 HP) with Alloy Heads" http://www.pavtek.com.au/ They have a good rep for stout reliable engines but are by no means the best in the land

Also Start prowling some Aussie ford or V8 forums and you may be surprised what is being done with Clevos. There will be builds for 550-600 + horsepower Clevelands. Again not cheap and not really everyday drivers but much more plentiful than you may think.

PS your torker aint going to cut it on a big build

 
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Im not really concerned about price. When I say that that doesn't mean I want to drop a aloy block or anything like that. If I boost it isnt that just rasing the compression there for still be hard to run on pump gas? Ive seen 800 out of a clevor carbed on a dyno but I dont want that much power...how does stroking even work and what kit would I even use? If I boost it id have to drop the compression so it doesn't blow the motor apart because acording to my books the motor has 10 to 1compressionp

 
Hello and welcome from Phoenix Arizona! I am a little concerned. I don't believe Ford put a lot of 4v Cleveland's in vans. So lets confirm you have a Cleveland and that it is a 4v Cleveland. Can you post some pictures? Are there any casting numbers on it? If so, please post them or post pictures of them. I am interested to know if the top corner of the cyl heads has a number 2 or number 4 on it as well.

1115.jpg


You will want to look at doing a roller cam. It is your best chance at being both streetable and getting some bigger HP out of it.

You will find it difficult to beat the ricers at the drags. They have a 40 year technology advantage over you. One trick you could use is nitrous.

Another thing you will want to do is shed as much weight as you can off the car.

 
680hp is a lot to hook on the street. What is the motor going in?

The main problem I see is that to make that kind of power with a 4.0x0" bore and 3.5"- ish stroke you will have to spin the crap out of it. Like NASCAR rpm. That takes a big dollar rotating assembly and will be rough on clutches. Better have some deep gears to. And some tires to hook it all up...

 
680 hp cleveland and streetable are mutually exclusive. That kind of power will put a racecar solidly in the 9s. That engine in a street car will be tempermental and kill valvesprings with regualrity, use 110 octane fuel, get 3-4 MPG and overall be a beast to drive in traffic. once you get it to hook-up then you'll find EVERY weak link in the driveline. You'll break axles, driveshafts, transmissions and clutches. Performance is a PACKAGE not just 1 component.

What do you plan to put the engine in? Just WHAT do you expect to do with the car? Pick an objective you want to accomplish choose that direction and work toward it realistically. 500 horsepower is even a bit beyond what most would consider streetable. I cant tell you how many guys I know who built a beast and then can't drive it anywhere.

 
Hi there,

If you are seriously looking to make those sort of figures and be a daily drive, your best way of doing it is to turbo or super charge it. If you want to do it naturally aspirated and stock stroke, then you're are going to be spending some serious money not only building the engine itself, also it's upkeep, let alone the rest of driveline will need some serious upgrading as well. Once you've got that all done, then you've got to strengthen the vehicle (because that sort of power will just twist that thing apart) then you're looking at setting up suspension to get the power to the ground. Add all that up and you better have some very big bucks just to build it, let alone running costs, keep up with maintenance and so forth. It becomes very expensive for a car to play with, let alone trying to use as a daily street car. As for this BS about heads flowing whatever claimed numbers out of the box, that's exactly what it is BS. A guy I used to work for and who I use to do all my serious intake manifold and cylinder head work, just laughs at all these "claims" of out of the box numbers. As he says, it's not to hard to manipulate the bench to give what numbers sound good to sell a product. I've seen this myself on his bench, as his is calibrated to how it should properly be, he'll tell you, put his stuff on most guys benches and his will be around 20 cfm (lower) different. Top of the chart flow numbers is what sells these heads to everyday people, it's what they do and what they can achieve overall, that serious engine builders look for. If putting on a set of heads that claim 680 hp and you think that's what you'll make, then everyone would be doing it, because it'd be that simple. Well it's not, a lot of research and development of trial and error go into proving what works and what doesn't, such things you'll be looking at: Block, maybe standard bore, but a whole lot of work needs to go into it too make it hang together, Crank, to make a stock 351 crank handle that much power, be cheaper to buy a scat or eagle gear as a minimum, conrods, forget it stock rods will never handle that sort of power, again as a minimum scat or eagle gear, pistons, depends on what comp you're after but will be forged. Camshaft, solid roller, need to get a custom ground one and they want to know everything about the engine and driveline as well as the car it's going in. This is just the basic bottom end, you still have sump, oil pump, drive and pick up, timing set (probably the cheapest thing you'll buy) harmonic balancer, flywheel/flexplate, roller lifters, pushrods. Then you have the top end, cylinder heads, just bolting them on like this will not get this power, plus changing any incompatible parts, so buy them bare and use the components to suit your application, rockers, guide plates, studs, unless going shaft rockers, intake manifold, forget using that torker, high rise intake with a bit of massaging, carb, your 850 might be ok, but is going to need a lot of work done to it, probably cheaper to buy something else. Whole ignition set up, exhaust system, doubt very much your headers are capable of supporting an engine like this and no off the shelf set up is able to give an engine like this it's maximum power. You still got bolts, studs, gaskets and the rest of the under hood things to go, then on top of this you still got the driveline, because no standard toploader or nine inch diff are going to handle these outputs. As Luke stated before there are plenty of tuff street/strip Cleveland powered cars here in Australia. If your idea of a street car is doing around 50-60 M/hr on the highway, because of the revs with low gearing and swallowing a tank of gas in around 120 miles. Then on top of that always tuning, servicing and keeping up maintenance to help keep it from going bang, because engines like these are not a set and forget type of engine. If this is your idea of a daily driven vehicle then go for it.

 
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I agree with everyone who has posted thus far and don't want to repeat the things they have said. You mentioned that if not 600+ how about 500. 500 is achievable on a stock stroke however it will have fairly poor street manors, be costly as well as require high octane fuel. If it were me i would stroke it (I know you said you didn't want to) strictly because it will have better manors and you could run pump gas and still get the power you are aiming for. Here is one of my favorite builds.

Scat cast crank, I beam rods, Mahle power pak dished pistons (-20cc), 9.5:1 CR

4 bolt CJ block, standard oiling mods

Closed camber 4V iron heads (69cc), mild port work, Ferrea 6000 +.100 valves

Lunati solid flat tappet cam and lifters, 238/[email protected], .558/.580, 110 LSA, installed at 106

Cloyes billet timing set, Mellings HV pump, Canton 7 qt T-pan

Blue Thunder dual plane intake, Holley 750 HP carb

Duraspark II distributor, 18 initial, 34 total, MSD-6AL, MSD coil

Dyno numbers are standard correction with dyno headers and 1 inch spacer

529 HP@ 6400 RPM, 496 TQ@ 4900RPM, above 450 TQ from 3000-6000 RPM

 
Yikes buddy! Not sure if you are serious or not. You had better have a big checkbook if your dreaming as high as your horsepower goals.

 
Ive lived and bleed on fords my whole life just like my 58 year old dad, we know how to tell which engines are witch and from what years. Its a Cleveland. I have 2 sets of clevor stock heads both 4v, one set low compression heads and one set high compression heads. And no not a urly 80s ecoline. They made truly 4 ears of clevelands in the US. they used them in alot of stuf including trucks van big boat cars and others, plus I never said it was stock. Money is no problem to me as far as parts go. That doesn't mean I want to buy a alloy block though. Ive alredy taken the liberty of geting 4 wheel disc brakes, bigger sway for the front, a rear swaybar kit, sub frame connectors from the 80s. When im done ill send it out for a roll bar to help strengthen it and keep me safe. im not going to us it as a daily driver, thats what my pinto with a 351w is for. I just mean something along the lines of driving it 5 miles to the street races, racing it hard and driving it back. I have a 72 mustang non fastback that I got from a farmers pasure for $200. The farmer disided after blowing up the stock motor it would be a good idea to pull a motor swap from the 70 maverick that was siting next to it because the maverick you could stick your arm almost threw from rust. Hence the reason for my user name. The car is gutless with the maverick straight 6 3.3


ceheler is that build stroked?

 
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Im new to hear but.I ned advice. I got a free stock bore ran when pulled 4v 351c out of a van from my dad. Im looking for advise to see if I can make it 680hp non stroker motor, if not 680hp then 500hp. I dont want to bore it to the max or stoke it. I want to be able to drive it to the street races run it hard then drive it home. As long as it never sees a set of riceburner tail lighs I witll consider it successful. I know go from inward dome pistions to flat top, im geting AFD 64cc heads that say 680hp+ hp out of box but I dont believe it for one second ive ordered a msd ignition kit with module and I have a toploader to back it all up. I have the headers and a 850 holly double pumper carb but I dont lnow what lifters to use or what cam to use or what cam to use that will run hard but still be streetable or a radiator that will cool it or what intake to use even though I have a Edelbrock Torker intake, I need a oil pan but dont know witch one will fit because the truck one is different, or any of the rest of the stuff I will need. Ive owned this mustang sense I was 13 and want to give it the heart it deserves.
I would suggest that you contact a cam grinder and provide the specifications on your engine and the intended use. That should address your questions as to what cam and lifters to use.

I agree with others in that the "Torker" is probably the wrong intake considering your stated goals. Prior to going to the big blocks, I ran a maxed out 351CJ which also used a "Modified" Torker. It was ported professionally and flowed significantly higher than a stock "Torker." I was also using an 850 Holley Double Pumper. I utilized 12.3:1 pistons coupled with shaved heads.

I did run the car on the street but that combination would obviously not be my choice today. There just are a LOT better options.

I don't believe anyone was trying to insult your knowledge of Fords in their responses to your queries. With nearly 4000 members on this site, we see different levels of "knowledge" as it relates to our cars and sometimes responses are boiled down to the basics.

Anyway, I am happy to see your on the Site and look forward to following your efforts with your Mustang.

Welcome Aboard!

BT

 
Okay if you say it is a 4v Cleveland pulled out of a van I believe you. I don't know how it got in there. As far as I know Ford only put the M/R/Q codes into Mustangs/Torinos/Montegos and Cougars. (I know guys, not all of them went into all models)

A better source of information on racing 351c motors can be found at 351net. There are several guys there that build and race Clevelands.

If your goal is a fast drag car. You might look at something with a lighter body to start. Fiberglass is your friend. Get rid of all extra weight.

 
ceheler is that build stroked?
Yes sir 408. If you would prefer i can dig through the builds i have saved and find a screamin 351 cid build and get that to you. or a great recourse to go through is http://www.network54.com/Forum/263038/ that is full of peoples Cleveland builds usually with dyno specs attached.

 
BLOCK: production 4-bolt - .030" over, water jackets filled half way, oil restrictors to cam and left lifter bank, external oil line added

CRANK: SCAT forged light weight 3.500" stroke, internal balanced

RODS: Probe light weight 6" SBC

PISTONS: JE flat top

HEADS: factory 4V CC - I: 2.190", E: 1.710", custom ported- I- 315cfm at .550", E- 200cfm at .650", Ferrea valves

CAM: Comp Cams custom solid flat tappet; Dur: 254 / 265 at .050", Lift: .622" / .650", LCA: 108, 3/8 pushrods, Comp Cams Aluminum roller rockers

INTAKE: Edelbrock Torker custom ported

CARB: Holly 4150HP 1000cfm with annular boosters , 1.500" Wilson spacer

CR: approx. 10.6:1

RPM HP TRQ

5000 376 395

5200 435 440

5500 449 429

6000 484 424

6500 524 424

7000 557 418

im sure with some aftermarket heads or some higher compression pistons you could bring it up a little more maybe even hit your 600hp mark.

 
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