MUST SEE READ ABOUT SAFE STRUCTURAL REPAIRS

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My Car
1972 Q code Mach 4spd
2004 350z
2005 Corvette
1971 Camaro SS/RS
Guys,

I thought I'd bring up the topic of safe unibody structural repairs given the amount of unibody work structural repair /replacement that is pretty much the norm on our cars. Many undertake this type of work without really understanding how important it is to do the repair correctly & in accordance with the most up to date repair procedures. I understand that lots of us like the challenge of doing our own repairs derive satisfaction from a job well done BUT it's just not as simple as cutting a piece out & welding a new piece in. As I said before there's plenty of cars out there that have had floors, frame rails, radiator supports, trunk floors replaced..alot done by diy guys & alot done by shops..Most when inspected would probably not pass as being done correctly retaining the structural integrity of the vehicle,the unibody specs measurements & corrosion protection. You need to be very careful when buying ANY CAR that's had this type of work done..As a shop owner for many years I've seen first hand how bad this problem is...This isn't a new thing it's been going on for a long long time in the restoration hobby & used car / new car collision repair


 
Great info. and more should take note of what is being done in their car repairs.

I myself was a tooling engineer in the automotive world for over 30 years. When a car is first produced they have very strict standards for all the steel used in the build, strength, (tensile, yield, elongation) and unless Ford has put their mark on the REPO part that they agree it is made to their engineering requirements you can expect less than OEM parts. I see some of the parts from Taiwan and China that you can bend with your fingers that I know cannot be equal to OEM. They just fill the void that the rust left. Yes the car is probably in better shape than with nothing but carpet for a floor but it will not be as designed.

I hear horror stories of how people struggle to get their car back together because the doors, trunk, fenders and hood do not fit after the floor, torque box and rocker repair. They cut sections out of doors to get the clearance right again or do the same to a quarter panel. It is very difficult to put a car back together in your garage without a fixture to hold it and the proper measurements from locator holes.

Like they are saying you can do the work yourself cut some corners but it will be in the back of your mind if you did a good enough job. Check around there are great shops that are just set up to do the floors, frame rails and trunks on our collector cars. Yes they do charge a healthy rate and if you have every tried it yourself you know why.

Like I have said before when I start on a car it goes to the frame shop and is checked to see that everything is where the factory designed it. It never is and after they pull and take the twist out and get everything right the I work on the car. The panels fit much better and the dimensions are right. If you have ever jacked your mustang up by using the front cross member and lifter the whole front end you probably have bent the structure especially with the rust that time brings. You can crack your windshield by doing this also. Just normal driving over time bends them and they need to be corrected.

I got tooooo wound up again just wish everyone would be safer doing their repairs.

David

 
Theres so many poorly repaired cars on the road today it boggles the mind..

Given the internet age & some shop owners who finally opened their mouth decided to stand up to the insurance company's, consumers are finally becoming more aware of how important it truly is and how the insurance company's and UNQUALIFIED repair shops are screwing them jeopardizing their safety ..I've seen plenty of shops never even set a car up for measuring nor even have the equipment to do so..Yet they keep churning out STRUCTURAL REPAIRS..It's a huge problem that I could on for days about..The big problem I see is the liability for the diy hobbyist guy like lots of us who repairs a car in his garage /home (structural repair ) enjoys the car then sells it at some point ....I was having a talk with my lawyer friend about this..It's interesting because say he sells the car..Guy buys it takes his family for ice cream has an accident a passenger is killed or maimed BECAUSE OF A POOR STRUCTURAL REPAIR lets say a floor pan replacement done by the diy'er..The question then becomes is he liable? Depends on the paper work & disclosure given at the time of sale..A shop doing the work would defiantly be liable no if's & or buts..Your going to see a lot of lawsuits in the coming years against shops & diyers for poor repairs on all levels that's my prediction..

 
Scott, as always, you're knowledge and wisdom shared is infallible.

However, these videos are about ready to make me throw up. Besides the fact that there is more fake drama in here than a Lifetime soap opera, I do not agree entirely with the explanations for some of the vehicles presented - it seems as if the wreck examples get less screen time than their owners' reactions.

While I agree entirely that the floorpan and full framerail on the van should have been replaced, the argument that the stamped steel floorpan is structural member significant enough to warrant complete failure in an accident is ridiculous. The rails and crossmembers below that floorpan give the unibody its structural strength, as do the rockers - and though we are shown the unibody framerail and poor repair (which they refer to as the rocker), the floorpan is given more time and emphasis as being a point of failure.

At most, that floorpan acts as a webbing that may prevent the framerails from buckling upwards or downwards in a crash. If a side impact is strong enough to breach the rocker panel and crossmembers, that floorpan is going to crumble like a tin can, whether it's been damaged in the past or not. Without the pan welded to the crossmembers below it, the lateral rigidity of that pan is very limited (obviously). Yes, a properly intact floorpan is going to have a certain benefit over the original, but it's not the sole thing holding that car together - as any ignorant member of the general public would be led to believe by watching this video.

On the other hand, when we are finally shown the framerail, there is very little emphasis put towards the wrinkled area which should have been repaired, and, given a future side or rear impact, will definitely factor in as a significant weak spot - and given a simple explanation, anyone can be made to understand that without employing low-key scare tactics.

The "incorrect / correct" images (with exception to the bare weld) are terrible too. If it weren't for the sloppy seam sealer, nobody could have guessed what was "incorrect" at first glance - and the wrinkled area of the framerail is almost cropped out entirely in the shots. Did anyone actually explain the concept of this video to the video production team?

Yes, the pan and framerails must be replaced entirely to be a PROPER repair - that I don't question. But I don't agree with the presentation.

The Lexus was a much better case study, even though the video was claustrophobic. The shots don't establish what part of the car you are looking at.

-Kurt

 
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Kurt,

Since your a professional producer I bet you would have done the videos much better..Are they loaded with drama? Of course they are, BUT the whole Idea is to inform the consumer make them THINK..MAKE THEM AWARE..I thought they accomplish that quite well...Me & You aren't the target audience. The Mom with 3 kids could a give a rats ass how the damage shown is presented. WHAT she does care about is that her mini van that just was repaired had the srs system reset calibrated as per the oem's tech sheets & that the proper repair was done in accordance with manufacturers specs..When I worked for BMW I totally revamped a dealer body shop that WASN'T doing work the correct way,That entailed training..certification..procuring tech bulletins for recommend repair procedures from the factory (they do have them) & even firing a few techs who couldn't adapt to the new way of doing things..I insisted that cars be repaired as per the tech sheets..If it said 30 welds it got 30 welds..I felt good I had piece of mind knowing that when the customer left the shop I could be confident that the car was going to perform as it was designed to in a accident. I respect your opinion thoughts on the matter & you may think you know about unibodys, structure, metals,& repair but you really don't know as much as the people who manufacturer the car nor do you really grasp the situation till you go for some training (I-car) & you see some videos tests of how a hack repair performs vs a proper repair. https://www.i-car.com/index.shtml

My whole point in this post was to make people aware of how important it is to do a STRUCTURAL UNIBODY REPAIR properly even on our cars and if buying one that had any structure replaced make sure that it's been done correctly.

 
Hello Q,

Holy cow Batman! There are a lot of people out there who think that the older automobiles are really safe vehicles. One of my good friends is an auto body professional with 35 years of service. Often I will go with him to his shop and get to see the auto’s that are in repair. You get to see the internal area of damage and repair. We have had many discussions on auto manufacturing and how they are built to absorb the energy of a Collision and drop the engine with frontal collisions. Unfortunately, our mustangs are nowhere near that level of safety. My opinion of how safe our mustangs in terms of collisions has really changed in the past 5 years. He is one who is replacing the sheet metal in my 1973 coupe. The first time I did the repairs, it was OK. Now, after watching him redo what I did, plus the extra work, I am nowhere even close to being qualified to perform that type of work. I am fortunate to know someone of his experience to perform that work and trust his expertise.

Q, thank you for sharing the information. The information in this forum is here to help us all decide on the best way to rebuild and or restore our 1971 1973 Ford Mustangs.

Thanks,

Mustang7173

 
Came back to see how this was going and some do get a little touchy and that is good. Passion makes the world a better place. Having been an automotive tooling engineer I have been involved from concept to SOP Start Of Production. I have worked with the Americans, Germans and Japanese. I mainly worked on Ford products for American, the two big German companies and a couple of the big Japanese companies. Of those companies I always felt that Ford did a better job on engineering. I personally was involved in the unibody structure of one of the German cars that I will not name specific. When the first off tool samples are available they do a build and those cars head to durability and crash testing. They failed in all areas. In frontal crashes the engine came up and into the cabin instead of down and under the floor. The seat belts tore out of the anchor points. During durability pulling a trailer of the 6,500 lbs. that would be advertised, the body stretched so much that the battery fell out of the rear. All of this took place after early prototype and computer simulations had said all was good. So you throw tooling away and they start adding Band-Aids to get the vehicle to pass all the required crashes.

I also saw the Japanese scramble to add patches in places to make the car barely pass the required testing.

We were headed to lunch with some of the Japanese engineers and were riding in a Ford vehicle. Someone on the Japanese team make a comment he liked the vehicle and the owner trying to be polite said that the comparable Japanese vehicle was nice and the Japanese engineer jumped in immediately and said " No this vehicle much stronger and more power". That sort of set us all back that he would make that comment about the company he worked for.

I have seen the engineers move spot welds and try to take just one more out to save the $.03 that the weld cost them. Yes $.03 three cents is all they would pay for a spot weld you put into a sub assembly.

Everyone will always have their opinions but please never take short cuts or leave out anything that needs to be fixed. When you are welding up sub assemblies in a plant you are required to do weld tear downs and check the weld nugget size for spot welds. MIG weld, very few now, also have to be torn apart. Weld nuts and studs at least have to pass a minimum push out test on a regular basis. This data has to be stored in case there is some kind of failure in the field later.

Yes the attorneys will surely jump on the band wagon if there is something to sue about. Oh by the way my gal friend is an attorney. As far as the DIY guys it would be difficult to argue that no floor pan in a rusty Mustang would be better than one put in with questionably welds. Something is better than nothing.

The 71 - 73 Mustang were some of the early vehicles with better seat belts and at lease some bumper design to improve crash. The only reason they did it was the government made them pass minimum standards.

Just do a better job than you have to and all will be ok.

Todays vehicles will be almost impossible to fix correctly with the exotic materials and processes. The insurance companies are scratching their heads on how to handle the new aluminum F-150. It will probably mean higher rates due to the cost to repair after a crash. More will get totaled for sure.

Beautiful day in the mountains,

David

 
A friend of mine owns a body shop. He recently showed me $200K worth of equipment he has bought in the last year to deal with the repair of new vehicles. That doesn't include the cost of getting himself and his employees ICAR certified. He is in negotiations with the insurance companies to raise the hourly cosmetic repair rate by $20 per hour and $40 per hours for structural repairs. He doesn't do anything but insurance work because that is where the money is. Prices are definitely going up. This is a great thread. Thanks to everyone for posting. Chuck

 
Chuck,

Your friend shouldn't be in any negotiations with insurance company's at all.

Thats the problem with the whole insurance co / body shop relationship..The body shop owner who allows the insurance company to become his business partner without any financial investment or assuming any liability what so ever for the work or the shop & dictate how the car is going to get repaired is a fool.. is not a true business person hes just sleeping in the same bed selling his soul to the devil to get the work because hes scared to stand up to them may lose some business. Again thats the real problem..I kicked plenty of Insurance company's out of my shop refused to do work "at their rate" & refused to repair cars the way they wanted..I'm the expert who has the investment & spent years perfecting my talent & trade I'm the guy liable for the repair I'm the guy paying the overhead NOT THEM.. it's my name that rolls out on the finished product.. WHEN A INSURANCE CO STICKS THEIR HAND IN THEIR POCKET & PUTS IN 250,000 INTO MY BUSINESS THEN THEY CAN HAVE A SAY..If they knew how to repair cars so well they'd be in the repair business.They aren't.

I went to court quite a few times against insurance co's on behalf of my customers WON EVERY TIME. If your friend was smart he'd tell the insurance co this is my rate IT'S NON negotiable. This whole insurance co body shop relationship IS one of the primary reasons that cars ARE NOT BEING REPAIRED PROPERLY When a guy needs a certain amount for a proper repair & the insurance company won't pay that amount corners & quality get cut that's the sad reality. So till guys like your friend & every other body shop owner take a stand kick the insurance co's out of their shop ,DO THE REPAIR FOR THE TRUE COSTUMER which is the person who OWNS THE CAR nothing is going change.


 
I really didn't see where the reoair shop owner Chuck mentioned above is not standing up to the insurance companies.

With all due respect --- I think the word negotiations got bent a little. As I'm sure you know - communications/negotiations are required between shop owners and insurance companies for almost every claim filed. If a shop owner doesn't or maybe doesn't feel it is necessary they are probably not representing their customers very well. Insurance companies can't see what the craftsmen uncover as the repairs are attempted and to ensure proper repairs are completed, communications/negotiations ensue. Sounds like the body man Chuck mentioned is actually not falling under the pressure from the insurance companies. I wish there were more like his. I'd feel a lot more comfortable about related repairs...

Ray

 
I really didn't see where the reoair shop owner Chuck mentioned above is not standing up to the insurance companies.

With all due respect --- I think the word negotiations got bent a little. As I'm sure you know - communications/negotiations are required between shop owners and insurance companies for almost every claim filed. If a shop owner doesn't or maybe doesn't feel it is necessary they are probably not representing their customers very well. Insurance companies can't see what the craftsmen uncover as the repairs are attempted and to ensure proper repairs are completed, communications/negotiations ensue. Sounds like the body man Chuck mentioned is actually not falling under the pressure from the insurance companies. I wish there were more like his. I'd feel a lot more comfortable about related repairs...

Ray
Ray,

The whole Idea of the body shop negotiating with insurance companys is where the body shop owners took a wrong turn..The owner of the car is the person who has the contract with the insurance co not the body shop..Body shops should be more like doctors are, Ever notice the sign in a doctors office "we will gladly submit your insurance co paper work but YOU are responsible for payment in full" Body shops should be doing the same. You don't see insurance co's sending appraisers to doctors offices to negotiate claims inspect the damages (cars people the claim process is the same) EXCEPT with cars body shops allow a representative of the insurance co on the premises to negotiate..All I'm saying is it's kinda hard & insulting when someone who's never repaired a car in their life (most appraisers adjusters) WALKS INTO your HOUSE & dictates how to repair the car & how much they are going to pay..Didn't work for me & I never let them tell me otherwise..I sent plenty of them packing don't ever come back..Customer had to pay the difference if they wanted the repair..Just like the Doctors office does. If you don't do that then you end up with cars repaired poorly like in the above videos..I had a conscious & reputation to maintain liked to sleep well at night knowing I did the right thing. Negotiating a repair with the insurance co is doing nothing to help your customer get them the best quality repair the insurance co is there to get that repair as cheap as possible PERIOD..If you let them dictate to you that repair, you shortchange your TRUE customer THE CAR OWNER. Again the insurance co is NOT your friend nor your customer..

 
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