351C Cooling System

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If you don't get the thermostat right you can seriously screw up your engine.

And it may run perfectly normal, for a while. I remember buying one at a local

"auto parts store" only the wrong one, but it fit just fine.

mike

 
Gents-

Just want to make sure I have this right, since I have the "wrong" thermostat now, and there is no plate in the thermostat orifice.

For correct / proper cooling operation, there are two routes to go:

1) Use the stock setup as described in Don's attachment, requiring original type orifice plate and Cleveland correct thermostat.

2) Use the "Pantera" setup with West Coast Cougar restrictor plate and standard thermostat.

I've been following a couple of threads regarding performance issues related to this, but it's not clear to me what symptoms/ long term results of running with the wrong setup. I hear pinging, but I'm not savvy enough of an engine guy to put it all together.

Oh- and which temp range is best - the 180 or 192 degree.

Can someone enlighten me?

 
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Hey Don, do you think that the new style "spring loaded" hat style would work/fit?...ever look or measure them?
I wondered that myself and bought one of each thermostat. The spring loaded mod motor thermostat is longer in the cold (closed) position than the 351C is in the hot (open) position so it won't substitute for the 351C thermostat.

 
Hey Don, do you think that the new style "spring loaded" hat style would work/fit?...ever look or measure them?
I wondered that myself and bought one of each thermostat. The spring loaded mod motor thermostat is longer in the cold (closed) position than the 351C is in the hot (open) position so it won't substitute for the 351C thermostat.
figures...


 
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Gents-

Just want to make sure I have this right, since I have the "wrong" thermostat now, and there is no plate in the thermostat orifice.

For correct / proper cooling operation, there are two routes to go:

1) Use the stock setup as described in Don's attachment, requiring original type orifice plate and Cleveland correct thermostat.

2) Use the "Pantera" setup with West Coast Cougar restrictor plate and standard thermostat.

I've been following a couple of threads regarding performance issues related to this, but it's not clear to me what symptoms/ long term results of running with the wrong setup. I hear pinging, but I'm not savvy enough of an engine guy to put it all together.

Oh- and which temp range is best - the 180 or 192 degree.

Can someone enlighten me?
My personal choice is your #1, although many of the Pantera guys swear by #2 and say it has solved their over heating problems.

The 192° thermostat will generally make an engine run cleaner and more efficiently. Pinging can be caused by several things, such as too much initial advance, too much total advance, advance too soon, vacuum advance not working correctly or connected to the wrong vacuum source, or hot spots in the combustion chamber caused by carbon build up, incorrect spark plugs, head gasket protruding into the combustion chamber, etc. or substandard fuel quality.

If the problem is carbon build up, the 192° thermostat may help to burn the carbon out, but it may also increase the pinging. I run the 192° thermostat (4V closed chamber heads) and I have no pinging with pump gas.

 
Gents-

Just want to make sure I have this right, since I have the "wrong" thermostat now, and there is no plate in the thermostat orifice.

For correct / proper cooling operation, there are two routes to go:

1) Use the stock setup as described in Don's attachment, requiring original type orifice plate and Cleveland correct thermostat.

2) Use the "Pantera" setup with West Coast Cougar restrictor plate and standard thermostat.

I've been following a couple of threads regarding performance issues related to this, but it's not clear to me what symptoms/ long term results of running with the wrong setup. I hear pinging, but I'm not savvy enough of an engine guy to put it all together.

Oh- and which temp range is best - the 180 or 192 degree.

Can someone enlighten me?
Yes, those are the two main options. Each of which have some other considerations.

The #1, stock set up is the most "dummy proof" but it all comes down to you having to rely on a $10. part. The thermostat must work correctly for the factory internal "Controlled Bypass System" (as Ford called it) to work. Brand new thermostats can work incorrectly, so if you're gonna go this route, test your thermostat for proper functioning.

The #2, "Pantera set up" will make your engine take longer to warm up to the temperature it was designed to run at. Some people think that if your not overheating, all is good. Underheating is also not good, it's just not as obvious. If you like to run your car in the summer without the heat on...I'd caution you. (who the hell wants their heat on in the summer?...you ask) you're already working without the internal "Controlled Bypass System" by going with the #2 option. The heater core loop also works as a bypass loop (shortcut around the radiator) while the thermostat has yet to open. With both possible bypasses closed where does the water pump get it's return water supply, prior to the radiator loop being opened by the thermostat?...it doesn't have one. The coolant in your heads is not circulating (or going anywhere) if it has no where to go to. To remedy this, the more learned/experienced guys will drill a "few" 1/8" or 3/16" holes around the perimeter of the thermostat. This will allow "some" water to circulate through the radiator, providing return for the pump to pump. Two 1/8" holes for stock hp motor to 3-4 3/16" holes for a high hp motor. (get the picture?) Again, this option will take longer to heat up to operating temperature, so if your constantly using the car for 1/2 hours runs and it never gets any hotter than 140°, you will have other problems and will NEVER TRUELY EXPERIENCE THE ENGINE'S POWER POTENTIAL. There are way too many variables to consider which is why the Ford engineers came up with #1. Test your thermostat.

 
Of course what I really WANT is the Pantera setup with a manual way (with a few three way brass valves) to bypass (for the warmup purposes) during the cold winter months. I would be able to use it in the summer, if I still felt it was taking too long to warm up but I know the Pantera setup takes almost an hour to warm up to 190° when its 20-30°, or colder, during the Pennsylvania winters. I don't like putting load on an engine that is not properly warmed up and that's too long. I want to drive the car during dry winter days but need to warm her up faster. If I plumb in a series of three way valves, I will also incorporate valves to bypass and blow out the heater core for the summer to rid the cabin of the heat. I'll make the hc return go to the upper rad hose (for the summer) so it doesn't put the heat back into the engine but it will still supply the water pump with return flow prior to the thermostat opening. Already found the perfect valves to set this up. (http://www.valworx.com/product/3-way-lead-free-brass-ball-valve-t-full-port-34-npt)



Testifying:

I'm running a regular 180D thermostet without the hat and

at idle the temp creeps up. Ive seen 195D waiting for a green

light on a 65D day.

The thought of 100D day and traffic isn't pretty!
...without the hat, above 180°, your thermostat is open but there is no "hat" that would now block the flow through the bypass. You are letting approximately 20% of your hot coolant flow that just came off the heads to go directly back through the water pump and back into the engine. With the "hat" that 20% of hot coolant would have to go through the radiator (when the thermostat opens, it also closes the bypass simultaneously) with the other 80%, get cooled, then return through the lower rad hose, to the water pump and back to the engine.

Bypass thermostat explained.PNG


http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B000C809CY/ref=oh_aui_detailpage_o02_s00?ie=UTF8&psc=1


copy and paste the amazon link (above) to your browser to find the correct 195° thermostat. $5.72.

 
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Don & EB-

Many thanks for posting the specs and sharing your knowledge. Looks like I have a couple of parts to order ASAP as I was supposed to take the pony over to the shop today for final tuning- that will have to wait until I get the right parts in. (I'm going with option 1, as this is going to be a daily driver)

 
Don & EB-

Many thanks for posting the specs and sharing your knowledge. Looks like I have a couple of parts to order ASAP as I was supposed to take the pony over to the shop today for final tuning- that will have to wait until I get the right parts in. (I'm going with option 1, as this is going to be a daily driver)
Napa #197= 180° thermostat

Napa #297= 195° thermostat

or I got my 195° one online from Amazon:

http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B000C809CY/ref=oh_aui_detailpage_o02_s00?ie=UTF8&psc=1

Original Robertshaw specs:

Robertshaw 333 series thermostat.PNG

Specs on thermostat I got through Amazon(If you convert decimal to fraction, the dimensions are virtually identical:

Stant 13469 on Amazon.PNG

As far as the brass bypass washer, I hear you can get them on ebay. Here's some other info I saved which may help:

skirted thermostats by Marlin Jack.PNG


Yes, those are the two main options. Each of which have some other considerations.

The #1, stock set up is the most "dummy proof" but it all comes down to you having to rely on a $10. part. The thermostat must work correctly for the factory internal "Controlled Bypass System" (as Ford called it) to work. Brand new thermostats can work incorrectly, so if you're gonna go this route, test your thermostat for proper functioning.

The #2, "Pantera set up" will make your engine take longer to warm up to the temperature it was designed to run at. Some people think that if your not overheating, all is good. Underheating is also not good, it's just not as obvious. If you like to run your car in the summer without the heat on...I'd caution you. (who the hell wants their heat on in the summer?...you ask) you're already working without the internal "Controlled Bypass System" by going with the #2 option. The heater core loop also works as a bypass loop (shortcut around the radiator) while the thermostat has yet to open. With both possible bypasses closed where does the water pump get it's return water supply, prior to the radiator loop being opened by the thermostat?...it doesn't have one. The coolant in your heads is not circulating (or going anywhere) if it has no where to go to. To remedy this, the more learned/experienced guys will drill a "few" 1/8" or 3/16" holes around the perimeter of the thermostat. This will allow "some" water to circulate through the radiator, providing return for the pump to pump. Two 1/8" holes for stock hp motor to 3-4 3/16" holes for a high hp motor. (get the picture?) Again, this option will take longer to heat up to operating temperature, so if your constantly using the car for 1/2 hours runs and it never gets any hotter than 140°, you will have other problems and will NEVER TRUELY EXPERIENCE THE ENGINE'S POWER POTENTIAL. There are way too many variables to consider which is why the Ford engineers came up with #1. Test your thermostat.

 
Last edited by a moderator:
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