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408 cleveland stroker questions....


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Hey guys. Just want to say i love this site lol but I have a 351c 2v and want to change to something with some power for track and street that will run on pump gas..... so i have 351c cj 4v heads to go on the motor and wondering if it will go with a 408 scat stroker kit for now, untill i have some more spear cash to do up the top end. open to getting a cam and headers as well. The heads are D1ae ca and i have a torker intake and right now just a 650 eddy. But can change that too..... anyways just wondering about boring the engine if needed and if i do will it go with the heads? Id like to have a solid bottom end before doing the top. 450+ horses is what id like to shoot for to start. Thanks and any help be very much appreciated. Forgot to add the ram air as well...

20150620_135903.thumb.jpg.2cf602faf1b86bd0c834b1f5355f4169.jpg

More horsepower??? Sureeee!!!!!!!!!:whistling:

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an aggressive enough cam and heads properly built would be my starting place. Be realistic with your goals, anything beyond a mild build will easily overpower your chassis requiring additional modifications and expenses.

http://www.7173mustangs.com/gallery/1_01_07_15_8_53_18.png

 

"I love my Hookers!" and "Get some Strange" probably have a different connotation to non automotive enthusiasts!

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an aggressive enough cam and heads properly built would be my starting place. Be realistic with your goals, anything beyond a mild build will easily overpower your chassis requiring additional modifications and expenses.

Ok so what kind of cam, hyd roller with 240 245 at .50? Is that with the stroker kit? And mods to the chassis would be weld subframe connecters on? And traction bars? Im building this during the winter and jave lots of time to pick parts up. Just want to have a motor plan for final ending thats done right and not just peiced together.


Welcome from San Diego.

 

And thanks guys for the welcome. From Alberta.

More horsepower??? Sureeee!!!!!!!!!:whistling:

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Welcome.... very curious on how it turns out.... i eventually will go in similar direction

 

1971 M-code Mach 1

20160929_171923_edit2_small.jpg

 

1971 M-Code Mach 1 w/Ram Air, 408 stroker, 285/291 0.558" roller cam, Blue Thunder intake, TKO600, Hooker headers with electric cut-offs, FiTech EFI w/ RobBMC PowerSurge pump

Strange center section with Truetrac, 3.5 gear and 31 spline axles, 4-wheel disc brakes

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What grade of gas is available locally?

 

I would use a roller cam Solid for top performance, but expect to adjust valves from time to time. Hydraulic roller will be a bit tamer, but essentially maintenance free.

 

By going roller you cut friction losses greatly and you virtually eliminate cam break in failures. for 450 horsepower at the crank, you'll need to add weld in subframe connectors and better rubber. You'll want some traction bar or similar device and you'll need some good tires.

 

Transmission type, rear end ratio, tire height car weight and how you will drive it all go into cam selection. Anything over .580 lift or so and you will benefit from a stud girdle minimizing valvetrain harmonics. That power level can easily be reached with or without going to a stroker. Stroker cranks have a history among several users of leaking at the rear main seal. Your block can be machined for a 351 W 1 piece main seal if you wish to avoid that potential problem.

 

Look at the build details in my profile-and look at others. There are more than a few nice builds on this site

http://www.7173mustangs.com/gallery/1_01_07_15_8_53_18.png

 

"I love my Hookers!" and "Get some Strange" probably have a different connotation to non automotive enthusiasts!

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The scat stoker kit with Mahle pistons and rings worked well for me. Assuming a RON+MON/2 octane rating of 91, Shoot for a static compression ratio of about 10.0-10.5 and dynamic compression ratio of about 7.8:1-8.0:1 as ballpark numbers.

 

As far as roller vs.flat tappet, in my opinion, it is a matter of how much lift you want vs. duration, valve train control, RPM, and cost. The difference in frictional losses is much less than cam sellers would have you believe, read profit margins of a flat vs. a roller cam. The roller does allow more aggressive profiles (high lifts with relatively short durations) this ratio is in large part set by the diameter of the lifter and requisite roller wheel, a larger diameter can be more aggressive than a smaller diameter (Ford is bigger than Chevrolet and smaller than Mopar). Much is said about the lifter opening acceleration rates being faster than a flat tappet, and that is true for advertised durations greater than 280-285 degrees. Until that level is exceeded the flat tappet is faster.

 

If you want to control the valve train to about 6000-6300 using a hydraulic roller you probably don't need a rev-kit. To get to 7000+ it is likely you will need a rev-kit which adds to the weight of the valve train, and so does the roller lifter. Granted, weight on the inboard side of the rocker arm pivot point is less critical than the weight outboard of the rocker pivot point, it still matters. New, better components(read stronger, lighter, and more expensive) make controlling the valve train at high RPM easier today than just 15 years ago.

 

Flat tappet cam wipeout can be avoided by buying a quality cam and lifter set, using the proper lubricants, and observing proper break in procedures.

 

Roller lifter failures occur as well. Especially when used on the street with relatively slow idle speeds resulting in reduced oil volume being delivered to the lifter wheel and axle. Newer direct oiling lifters, with premium components, help minimize the problem, at addition cost.

 

Whether you go flat or roller, consider the small addition expense of a quasi-custom cam specifically suited to your combination and application. It is usually about an additional $50 USD. Also consider asymmetrical lobes that open quickly but close slower than they open to better control the valves, springs retainers, and keepers.

 

It is all about what you want the engine to do, how street drivable you want it to be, and how much you are willing/able to spend to achieve the goal. Then pick the best racing machine shop available and select parts that complement each other very well. If the build requires a roller set up, then go roller. If not, consider a flat tappet.

 

Good luck with the build and keep us posted. Chuck

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ok, there is another way to go about this . . please answer all the questions below 1 t a time.

 

do you want a mild, moderate or rough idle?

 

do you want a tire roaster or a tire warmer?

 

do you want a lite to lite drag car or a freeway flier or inbetween?

 

do you like to rev your engine to the max rpm often?

 

what trans?

 

what rear gear?

 

 

I would do the following

 

393 ci internal balance forged kit

 

4032 material pistons like je srp or mahle

 

bore it as little as possible

 

rollmaster red series timing chain

 

9.5 compression

 

trick flow heads

 

consider this cam if you port your iron heads or use aluminum ones.

 

http://www.lunatipower.com/Product.aspx?id=3189&gid=289

 

morel 5323 or 5327 or their bushing lifters

 

moroso cam oil restrictors or oil restricting cam bearings.

 

melling standard volume pump but disassmble and clean it . . if the bypass valve feels stick in the hole, hone it ut with a ball hone.

 

quick fuel SL780vs carb.

 

ati crank damper

 

engine balance

 

.

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That's a nice plan. I don't see the need for aluminum heads unless you are trying to reduce weight or can't find decent 4V iron heads (open chambers work well too) I also think a stud girdle should be included for cams with lift of that size.

http://www.7173mustangs.com/gallery/1_01_07_15_8_53_18.png

 

"I love my Hookers!" and "Get some Strange" probably have a different connotation to non automotive enthusiasts!

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ok, there is another way to go about this . . please answer all the questions below 1 t a time.

 

do you want a mild, moderate or rough idle?

Moderate

 

do you want a tire roaster or a tire warmer?

Tire roaster

 

do you want a lite to lite drag car or a freeway flier or inbetween?

Inbetween but more to lite to lite lol

 

do you like to rev your engine to the max rpm often?

Yes i do

 

what trans?

Fmx

what rear gear?

3.50

 

I would do the following

 

393 ci internal balance forged kit

 

4032 material pistons like je srp or mahle

 

bore it as little as possible

 

rollmaster red series timing chain

 

9.5 compression

 

trick flow heads

 

consider this cam if you port your iron heads or use aluminum ones.

 

http://www.lunatipower.com/Product.aspx?id=3189&gid=289

 

morel 5323 or 5327 or their bushing lifters

 

moroso cam oil restrictors or oil restricting cam bearings.

 

melling standard volume pump but disassmble and clean it . . if the bypass valve feels stick in the hole, hone it ut with a ball hone.

 

quick fuel SL780vs carb.

 

ati crank damper

 

engine balance

 

.

 

Thanks for everybody's posts. A lot of good info to work with. My dad gave me those heads machined and redy to put on. So id like to stick with that out of respect for him for now anyways lol. Is it possible to get 450+ out of them? Looking at exhust as well if anyone has any recommendations. Havnt really started to look at them yet but the more info about my car i can get the bette. Plus ill be combing this site for info. Which theres tons of :)

 

Thanks again guys.


That's a nice plan. I don't see the need for aluminum heads unless you are trying to reduce weight or can't find decent 4V iron heads (open chambers work well too) I also think a stud girdle should be included for cams with lift of that size.

 

Yea my dad had a set of cj quenched heads. So im going to use them if i can. Also whats a stud girdle?

More horsepower??? Sureeee!!!!!!!!!:whistling:

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http://www.jegs.com/i/Jomar/519/1135/10002/-1?CAWELAID=1710839841&CAGPSPN=pla&catargetid=230006180000850303&cadevice=c&gclid=CKye5Oeq1sgCFZM2gQodq0sCMw

 

 

I used BB chevy Rocker arm studs for a bit extra height and to get my valve train geometry right. It did force the use of taller valve covers. The idea is that by tying all the rocker arm studs together, the flex is greatly reduced allowing your valve timing events to all occur as accurately as possible. At 5000 rpm it is fairly unnecessary. At 7000 rpm, it is damn good insurance.

 

I will warn that it makes valve adjustments a more time consuming process/

http://www.7173mustangs.com/gallery/1_01_07_15_8_53_18.png

 

"I love my Hookers!" and "Get some Strange" probably have a different connotation to non automotive enthusiasts!

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Yea my dad had a set of cj quenched heads. So im going to use them if i can . . My dad gave me those heads machined and redy to put on. So id like to stick with that out of respect for him for now anyways lol. Is it possible to get 450+ out of them? Looking at exhust as well if anyone has any recommendations.

 

ok then you really need to port the crap out of those heads, and its best to use stainless valves, and of course you will need springs to match the cam . . keith kraft is one place that can port them.

 

you need roller rockers . . scorpions are a decent deal.

 

you will need full length headers . . i would use 4 into 1 with 1 7/8" tubes . . FPA may have some that size . . call for info . . jba may have some also as well as some others on summit racing but dont buy standard hookers.

 

http://www.fordpowertrain.com/fpaindex/Mustang1.htm

 

you also need 2 5/8 or bigger exhaust pipes with a cross over and straight thru mufflers like magnaflows.

 

look at this cam since you want to rev the bejesus out of it.

 

http://www.lunatipower.com/Product.aspx?id=3190&gid=289

 

with that cam i would run around a 2600 - 2800 rpm stall converter.

 

you need to build your trans because this setup will turn a worn stock trans into mush.

 

you can still use the remaining parts from my list that you dont have if you want.

 

you need at least an 850 carb.

 

chromoly push rods with .080" thick wall.

 

high perf oil pump drive

 

msd 6a box or pertronix III and msd epoxy coil or a big square type coil.

 

ford racing plugs AR24.

 

i would install a water bypass block off plate then run a high flow 180 or 185 Windsor style thermostat and drill four 3/32 holes around the perimeter.

 

http://www2.cougarpartscatalog.com/waterrestrictplate.html

 

if your heads dont use screw in studs you dont need stud girdles.

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Well i have a stroker 408" Cleveland 4v which is a blast to drive:whistling: The power is:whistling: My engien has around 470 Hk and i dont have problems Now :whistling: Wee dit have some isues whit heat in the engien bay. But the problem was My elektronik MSD setup!!! Which wee frue out as it whould stop working when the engien was at rhe right temp...... Now i have petronik mekanik system which is a blast to drive whit!!:D The power is just there when you need it... Regards Lars DK73

So I'm a proud owner of one Mach 1 73! Regards Lars DK73:whistling:

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Well i have a stroker 408" Cleveland 4v which is a blast to drive:whistling: The power is:whistling: My engien has around 470 Hk and i dont have problems Now :whistling: Wee dit have some isues whit heat in the engien bay. But the problem was My elektronik MSD setup!!! Which wee frue out as it whould stop working when the engien was at rhe right temp...... Now i have petronik mekanik system which is a blast to drive whit!!:D The power is just there when you need it... Regards Lars DK73

 

Yea sounds fun!! Im getting excited here to tear my first engine apart and rebulid it!! Winter is pretty much here and it soon begins!!! ::devil::

 

Thanka to all that repiled as well. All info is greatly appreciated!

More horsepower??? Sureeee!!!!!!!!!:whistling:

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Yes and i got the 4V CHI Austrailiens heads they are just awesome!! My originals heads was Not posibell to Make them Back in shape. So they do Make alot off heat :whistling: Because off the Hig air flow!! Because off Them My 0-60 is 3,7 sek whit a C6. :whistling::cool: Regards Lars DK73

So I'm a proud owner of one Mach 1 73! Regards Lars DK73:whistling:

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You may want to check this thread

http://www.network54.com/Forum/119419/thread/1326823174/351C+stroker+question--

 

The 351c.net forum has a lot details about the 351c engine....

 

1971 M-code Mach 1

20160929_171923_edit2_small.jpg

 

1971 M-Code Mach 1 w/Ram Air, 408 stroker, 285/291 0.558" roller cam, Blue Thunder intake, TKO600, Hooker headers with electric cut-offs, FiTech EFI w/ RobBMC PowerSurge pump

Strange center section with Truetrac, 3.5 gear and 31 spline axles, 4-wheel disc brakes

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Wow that is so awesome 😎 Thanks for the info Tony[WINKING FACE] Regards Lars DK73

 

Sendt fra min D2005 med Tapatalk

So I'm a proud owner of one Mach 1 73! Regards Lars DK73:whistling:

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Yes and i got the 4V CHI Austrailiens heads they are just awesome!! My originals heads was Not posibell to Make them Back in shape. So they do Make alot off heat :whistling: Because off the Hig air flow!! Because off Them My 0-60 is 3,7 sek whit a C6. :whistling::cool: Regards Lars DK73

 

Too bad you can only make 1000 hp with those heads.

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You may want to check this thread

http://www.network54.com/Forum/119419/thread/1326823174/351C+stroker+question--

 

The 351c.net forum has a lot details about the 351c engine....

 

1971 M-code Mach 1

 

Thanks for the info. Awesome read!!

More horsepower??? Sureeee!!!!!!!!!:whistling:

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Well I'm not going to have that much power enyway! That still works out fine those heads😎 Regards Lars DK73

 

Sendt fra min D2005 med Tapatalk

So I'm a proud owner of one Mach 1 73! Regards Lars DK73:whistling:

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  • 1 month later...

Lars DK73 whats your build sheet like if you dont mind me asking?

and after a long time thinking about this....im going to go with a 408c scat stroker kit. hyd roller kit and cant make my mind up about doing my 4v quenched heads (port, have to redue for screw in and guide plates) or go with trick flows... going to get subframe and traction bars if anyone wants to recommend any be great. have a monte carlo bar already. i have a torker intake that id like to use but if need be i can sell and find a better intake. i have a mallory ignition 3756701 wondering if i can use this also or should i sell it.... the fmx tranny stays for now until i can find a better setup with 3.50 gears and im looking to get better gears too. also have edelbrock 7821 timing chain.. and i think i wont be able to use. correct me if im wrong? and any other suggestions be great too.

More horsepower??? Sureeee!!!!!!!!!:whistling:

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have block machined for 1 piece rear main seal from a 351 Windsor. Scat stropker cranks have leaked for several of us that have built strokers.

http://www.7173mustangs.com/gallery/1_01_07_15_8_53_18.png

 

"I love my Hookers!" and "Get some Strange" probably have a different connotation to non automotive enthusiasts!

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