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Engine Sludge and lifter noise ohhh my!


chefabg123321
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Well...my new Q Code 72 351 4v is really making some serious lifter noise. Local shop pulled the heads and its pretty thick in there with sludge !! Options available and advice would really be appreciated:

 

1) Drain oil,, adjust lifters, cross my fingers and roll on ! (my favorite choice)

 

2) Pull engine, pull oil pan, and clean from top down with new gaskets oil pump etc. Pretty pricey as labor is 2000 bucks...probably 3200 finished

 

3) New crate Engine. 5k plus

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If you go with your preferred, be super careful with the thickened oil/sludge, I have a friend that allowed some to reach the crankcase, it clogged to pick up screen starting a new list of problems.

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The only correct way to fix it is... fix it correctly.

 

There are no shortcuts, especially in the sludge game.

 

Chances are that the valvetrain noise is a combo of worn cam lobes, lifter faces and rocker arms.

Pete - MotoArts Decals and Signs

'71 Sportsroof 351C-4V/4-speed - FINALLY under construction - no, wait, on hold again...

'90 Mustang 7-Up 5.0 ragtop, rolling beater - SOLD

'66 Sunbeam Tiger Mk.IA, survivor

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I like choice #3. Hiperformer.com has nice longblock engines for sale. I bought my engine from them 5 years ago and I am very happy with it. Choice 1 & 2 are a bit risky and you can by a long block for about the 2 grand you would spend cleaning yours up.

351w - Ford racing GT40X 178 cc aluminum heads - Ford racing(crane) 1.7 roller rockers - Comp Cams 280H magnum cam .544" / .544" lift - ARP hardware - hedman longtubes - magnaflow exhaust with X pipe - Duraspark - MSD digital 6al box - MSD TFI coil - optima red top battery - tuff stuff 140 amp alternator - weiand stealth intake  - edelbrock 1406 600 carb  - march pullies and brackets - Be cool fan controller - derale electric fan - FMX trans - motive 4.11 gears - traction lok - lakewood traction bars.                                            

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

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So question is pull engine and :

 

Drop oil pan and pull engine and heads , clean , etc... Looking at 2200 in labor and another 1000 misc

 

Or probably can score a really nice rebuild around 3k and install , not surecostof pulling and installing new engine?

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What car do you have? Your profile says 73 Q code vert and this thread is 72 Q code?

 

In either case, this is a pretty rare and desirable car and if car still has original engine and parts I would suggest that you keep it. The car will hold its value much more if you ever go to sell. They didn't make many 72 or 73 Q code verts.

 

On your engine issue, where I am, you can get a complete long block with your existing engine for under $2k. You can then factor in removing and install new engine for another $1k. Seems like you would be way ahead going this route if possible.

Jeff

1972 Q Code Convertible

 

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If you are going to pull the motor might as well just go through the whole thing and rebuild it. Chances are you have a lot of miles on it and it will need a rebuild soon anyway. Might as well get it all done at the same time. Other thing is a crate motor or a long block but then no longer matching numbers as Jeff mentions.

-john

(jbojo)

351C 4V cc heads, 10.5 : 1 CR, 290 Herbert cam, Flat top forged pistons, forged connecting rods, Atomic efi,

C6 with Gear Vendor overdrive, 3.89 Tru Trac, Hooker Super Comp with 2 1/2" Pypes Exhaust.        

 

Some Mod pictures can be seen at: [button=http://www.7173mustangs.com/forum-garage?filterxt_uid=2026]Bojo's Garage[/button]

 

 

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Use to see these situations all the time when I was still in the game, people taking the cheap way out thinking they were going to save themselves some bucks. Then when it all goes to crap, they come back complaining that they spent X amount of dollars at a mechanics and now the engines stuffed after only so long (days, weeks, etc) It's like if they gave us a sob story that we'd be great guys and just do the job for nothing, sorry but you made the choice of go to whoever to try and save a few bucks and now it's gone downhill on you. That few hundred or even a thousand dollars they tried to save is looking like it should've just been done that way first time around. So that two grand or whatever is now money down the drain and there may be even further damage done to the engine (crank beyond repair, dropped valve, etc) which now is even more money on top of that original price it was going to cost to fix properly in the first place.

The best advice I can give you from a someone whose witnessed this scenario so many times, is just do the job properly and know it's done right (providing a well know engine shop is doing the engine and who knows Clevelands) and with a warranty. It will be a total piece of mind and knowing that just maintaining and servicing it will give you many years of trouble free service (engine wise) Rather than that thought in the back of your mind, if it's going to be alright and not give out on you. Do it once and do it right is the best philosophy.

On a side note, is that for real $3200 to R&R the engine, remove heads and sump, clean it up and replace the oil pump and gaskets. If that is, then that's another crazy price I've heard of to do work on cars. Maybe I should really consider getting back into the game, at those prices I'd only need to do a job (2 days tops, if I took it easy) like that a week, maybe even a fortnight, lol. Anyway all the best with it and hope you make the right decision.

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option 4, do a compression and leak down check to determine the mechanical condition of the motor. If it is good, pull the intake and oil pan in the car, drop the oil pump remove the front cover and clean everything thoroughly. If it is not good pull the engine and have it rebuilt

http://www.7173mustangs.com/gallery/1_01_07_15_8_53_18.png

 

"I love my Hookers!" and "Get some Strange" probably have a different connotation to non automotive enthusiasts!

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What car do you have? Your profile says 73 Q code vert and this thread is 72 Q code?

 

In either case, this is a pretty rare and desirable car and if car still has original engine and parts I would suggest that you keep it. The car will hold its value much more if you ever go to sell. They didn't make many 72 or 73 Q code verts.

 

On your engine issue, where I am, you can get a complete long block with your existing engine for under $2k. You can then factor in removing and install new engine for another $1k. Seems like you would be way ahead going this route if possible.

 

Sorry for confusion. I bought this 1972 Q code vert 4 speed manual as a non matching engine. Everything else is original and this "new" engine thats "sludged" is correct for the car...its a 351C 4v CJ.

So my inclination at this point is to get a rebuilt engine thats identical, top with an aluminum intake and new carb.

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I'd pull engine (you'll have to anyway) you're heads are off anyway, have it rebuilt by a good shop. Stick with the original engine you have and once rebuilt you wont regret it.

I've messed around trying to "fix" a worn engine and it doesn't work.

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Another two cents worth. I am not a fan of some of the "Factory Rebuilt" engines. Some weld the cranks up and grind back to nominal standard size. I am not a fan of welding anything in an engine much less the crank. Most use all the off shore China parts also.

You have an engine that was running and hope it is right date codes. A Q code will go up in value as Jeff has stated if you keep all the original stuff you can. I saw you said the engine was a replacement but hope it is right year.

I would rebuild the engine. If I do it myself I can usually do for $100 per cylinder so $800 for a V-8. That is not getting carried away with lots of hot parts that will not hold up on the street. Over bore, grind crank, all new bearings, maybe a mild cam and a little more compression but you have to consider the gas we are offered today.

Check around with some of your local racing guys. This time of year they are not trying to fix something to get to the track and they might do you a favor and build your engine for less than you have stated. I know I use one of the local NASCAR engine builders here and just tell him to do fill in with my job and he cuts me a better deal than the normal engine shops.

Keep us posted. I have a Q code 72 vert also.

David

When a man is in the woods and talks and no women are there is he still wrong??:P

David

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option 4, do a compression and leak down check to determine the mechanical condition of the motor. If it is good, pull the intake and oil pan in the car, drop the oil pump remove the front cover and clean everything thoroughly. If it is not good pull the engine and have it rebuilt

 

IMO, this is the best option if you are trying to save a few bucks. It's tough to save money when you're paying someone else to do the work.

 

You might find it more cost effective to simply pull the engine and have it rebuilt.

 

 

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overpriced for what it is and no warranty since the shop didn't build it for you.

 

PS- Spreadbore intakes and carbs are not desirable for performance, only for originality.

 

Where are you located? there are some great engine builders in the southeast if you don't want to do it yourself and an all forged bottom end stroker motor can be built for 5 grand. A basic stock style rebuild can be done for a lot less.

http://www.7173mustangs.com/gallery/1_01_07_15_8_53_18.png

 

"I love my Hookers!" and "Get some Strange" probably have a different connotation to non automotive enthusiasts!

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You really should consider rebuilding your existing engine....especially if it's a date-correct Q code. This engine should be a 4 bolt main with open chamber 4v heads. Take it to a shop with a good reputation. As far as whether or not to bore it....unless the cylinder bores are in exceptional condition, just bore it and replace the pistons...it's not worth saving $600. If you were doing the job yourself, that's a different story...and for my time (doing it myself...and I've done a bunch of 'em), I'd still spend the $600.

 

I see you're willing to drop $5000 on an engine....you should be able to replicate that engine by rebuilding your existing and still get it R&R'd (remove & replace) for that price.

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You really should consider rebuilding your existing engine....especially if it's a date-correct Q code. This engine should be a 4 bolt main with open chamber 4v heads. Take it to a shop with a good reputation. As far as whether or not to bore it....unless the cylinder bores are in exceptional condition, just bore it and replace the pistons...it's not worth saving $600. If you were doing the job yourself, that's a different story...and for my time (doing it myself...and I've done a bunch of 'em), I'd still spend the $600.

 

I see you're willing to drop $5000 on an engine....you should be able to replicate that engine by rebuilding your existing and still get it R&R'd (remove & replace) for that price.

 

good advice...that is the direction im heading. A nice stock rebuild. The new pistons and small bore are a good point. any other advice on this rebuild?

I really dont want to drop 5k on an engine...the rebuit one i linked earlier could maybe be bought for 3000..and that would include all the goodies like sanderson headers, new flyheel. And it has included and already edlebrock intake and new carb and a few other things...thoght that was a sweet deal

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http://www.summitracing.com/parts/fem-csmhp732-310/overview/make/ford

 

This is just one of the general kits, you would need a 4V intake manifold gasket, cam, lifters and timing chain set.

 

Timing chain sets are usually under 35 bucks.

 

Before ordering, the block would need to be machined and the crank turned to determine which exact kit you need.

 

Machinist would also need to resize rod ends and your heads will need to be gone through. I can't emphasize this point enough, the stock ford valves should be replaced with 1 piece valves. Ford valves when they fail destroy your engine. Springs should match your cam choice, so it is usually best to get a cam kit with the matching lifters and springs. A good set of valves will run about 300 bucks. Hydraulic flat tappet cam lifters and spring should be under 300 bucks

 

I would recommend roller rocker arms as an upgrade of the factory ones, though they are not a necessity. If your rocker arms are not in good condition factory types can be found for a reasonable price. Roller Rocker arms are about 225 a set

 

Locally, the machine work and balancing for both heads and block tend to run about a grand depending on what you need.

Lots of times, the machine shop will assemble the engine for under $500.00 additional

 

So components and labor to rebuild your engine would be right at 3K plus whatever you decide to do on the intake and carb and the labor to remove and reinstall.

 

The problem with buying a rebuilt long block is you will likely get a used or reground cam and the valves are unlikely to be replaced. Often the pistons are original with new rings and the cylinder walls are just honed, so they will not be any better than the worn donor block.

 

.010 and .020 oversized pistons are more expensive, .030 is pretty much a standard. But your machinist will measure the block and determine what will be best.

 

Having it done is more time consuming than just buying one, but you should end up with a better and more reliable engine.

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http://www.7173mustangs.com/gallery/1_01_07_15_8_53_18.png

 

"I love my Hookers!" and "Get some Strange" probably have a different connotation to non automotive enthusiasts!

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Gosh if you will give me until into the new year I will go check with one of the NASCAR engine builders here for what he will charge to do your engine. I bought a 72 CJ car that had the engine built on the stand never started that I was going to take to him. I do not trust unknown work and it had triple valve springs with pressed in rocker studs so I know that is going to fail.

I cannot believe some of the prices I am seeing here. Maybe I have been away too long and prices have exploded. It takes a few hours to bore and hone a block. Deck it if needed. The heads take more work if you install the inserted seats. The crank is same no matter who does it just needs to be right. The balance is a few hours work. It is not rocket science to build a great stock engine with a few performance upgrades.

I will for sure post a thread after New Year on what you can get it done for.

I use to go cart race with this guy. It has been so long since I walked in his shop he won't remember me but he use to do great work for a low cost. Some of his engines have won points championships in NASCAR.

I just don't want to talk out of place he might not want to do anything for the street anymore.

David

When a man is in the woods and talks and no women are there is he still wrong??:P

David

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+1 Jeff73Mach1

 

Everything he said +

 

Hardened valve seats

screw-in rocker studs

73 Grande

351C 2v

Now 4v Carb/Cam/headers/T5

 

Gasoline is for washing parts.

Alcohol is for drinking.

Nitomethane is for racing!

 

 

Work in Progress photos here:

Last Update: 4/23/16

 

http://s1270.photobucket.com/user/therocket366/library/?sort=3&page=1

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

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