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351C 4V CC Head Porting


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Found my note book from 1977:

 

Baseline flow - Stock 351C 4v CC heads

Lift - IN / EX

 

.050 - 32 / 29

.100 - 66 / 41

.200 - 130 / 77

.300 - 194 / 115

.400 - 254 / 142

.500 - 290 / 167

.600 - 310 / 181

 

 

After Porting and polishing

Lift - IN / EX

 

.050 - 36 / 29

.100 - 71 / 54

.200 - 134 / 83

.300 - 198 / 119

.400 - 254 / 143

.500 - 291 / 170

.600 - 319 / 188

 

Looks like a nice pick up:

But:

 

Baseline dyno: 436hp at 6300 rpm

After dyno: 437hp at 6350 rpm

 

Returned to the client:

Best ET 12.56 before

Best ET 12.56 after

 

Just because you see some improvement on the bench does not mean you will see them in the real world.

 

Here is a quote I found in an early 80's National Dragster:

 

"As I keep saying all the time, the sharp edges in the intake ports do not hurt performance because removing them will not gain HP, Jon Kaase and I did the "clean up and smooth" to a pair of my (351C 4V CC) heads back in 1977 when we had just started with Dyno Don. There was no change in the ET slip after we did the work.” ~ Randy Gillis

 

So:

 

I built Ford Engines for a living and got this results (multiple times)

Jon Kaase and Randy Gillis saw the same results working with Dyno Don

(Randy Gillis is one of the best in the industry - google him.)

 

Why is this so important?

 

The risk of grinding through a water jacket is just to great for nearly a zero increase in performance is just to great.

 

Many of us do not have a great deal of money and having to replace a 4 or 5 hundred dollar set of heads could be tragic.

 

Professional port work will run several hundred dollars at a minimum not including the cost of pulling the heads. This is money that just does not need to be spent this way.

 

I have received several nice messages and more than one person has asked me to spec out a Cleveland for them. This will be fun for me.

 

With respect to all,

 

Paul of MO

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12.56 ET W/430ish HP Ouch

 

I hope the car had street tires and a driver with poor reaction time.

 

Paul (of CA)

 

EDIT: well on second thought that may be about right...dam that last beer

73 Grande

351C 2v

Now 4v Carb/Cam/headers/T5

 

Gasoline is for washing parts.

Alcohol is for drinking.

Nitomethane is for racing!

 

 

Work in Progress photos here:

Last Update: 4/23/16

 

http://s1270.photobucket.com/user/therocket366/library/?sort=3&page=1

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

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.

The risk of grinding through a water jacket is just to great...

This is a 4V Cleveland intake port . . There is plenty of material between the port and the water jacket but only experienced porters should port any head.

 

.....................................funnelweb5.jpg

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OK, firstly don't want this to go off track like the last post did and the chest beating of who done what or I did this back then so guys today know nothing, blah, blah, blah. It was this and other types of BS that I walked away from the trade at the end of 2003 as I'd had enough of know it alls, guys that read books from 20 years ago, mates telling them that you should be doing this or that (well what are you doing here, get your mate to do it then, then usually told to get your $h!t and far cough, was my usual reply to that question) time wasters (no money and wanted everything) and so on. Since leaving the trade I've still kept an eye on what's going on in the high performance world and love what can be done with Cleveland engines these days and the aftermarket parts that are always coming out for them. Things change so much and so quickly these days, that since leaving back then, a fair bit of what was great or the ways things were done is now so outdated, let alone 40 years ago. While I hold these guys from "back in the day" in a very high regard and thankful for what they did with the technology they had back then as they were the ones who were playing with these things when they were new and showed us which way to go or not to go and pioneered things that, in basic form are still in use today, although modified/redesigned to today's requirements for high performance needs. But to say what was done or the way something was done 40 years ago doesn't necessarily mean that it still stands today, if this was true and everybody in the performance game thought, oh well, they said that doesn't work or doing this does nothing, then we'd all still be amazed at the power of a flathead V8.

I was pretty fortunate that I got to do what I said I was going to do (as a kid and all through high school) and that was build racing engines for a living. It didn't happen straight after leaving school, but I was determined and driven to get my dream job and couple of years later I got the job I was after. The guy I did my apprenticeship under had not long moved from New Zealand and set up a shop and the best part was it was only 5 mins drive from home, lol. All though at times he was a bit of a dick to work for, the one thing I'll give him, that he was a brilliant tradesman and use to build Outlaw Sprintcar engines over there. He taught me so much and had me doing stuff in my first year, that guys at college were doing in their third or final year. Also he told me not to think like everyone else, including him and not to be scared in trying something new or different. I worked for him for eight years all up, until he went back home, he offered me to buy him out, but I didn't want that much debt at that time in my life, regret it now though (another for the list, lol) I worked at a couple of other places (mainly standard stuff) then a big high performance shop, but hated it as they just wanted you to do everything their way and didn't like any thinking outside the square, so to speak. Then I ended up working for a guy I ran into one day and started talking cars and engines. This was the guy that builds some of the best Ford small blocks around and was the guy that blew my mind on 4V heads, as I'd had some experience with them, but nothing like I was about too. One of the first things he told me was about flow benches. I still remember the first thing he said to me about them, get 10 flow benches with 10 different operators and the same pair of heads and you'll get 10 different sets of numbers. Another thing, a bench is a tool and don't be fooled by numbers. Flow numbers sells heads to the uninformed and there's a lot of other information needed to know when doing heads. He only used the bench to see what differences were made and sometimes nothing shows up at all, but it does on the track and vice versa. His philosophy is the same with dynos, only good for bedding the engine and make sure everything's right and to give you a baseline tune, the real dyno is the 400 metre black track. Another couple of years there really open my eyes and I was like a kid in a candy shop, lol. But after a while the hour plus drive there then back again was starting to get old, let alone all of the hours working and going to the track etc. I ended up going in partners in a shop, but he ended up being a slimey prick and with all of the things mentioned earlier, I'd had enough and that was it. My wife didn't believe me until the next day when I came home with most of my stuff (what he didn't pinch) I still did a few engines for guys I knew or really good customers I'd had for years, until it became less and less to where it is now where I'll offer my advice to really good mates and supervise them on their build. I basically do nothing now except my own stuff. I belong to few other forums and this one and one other (it's very small and very selective) are the only ones I really post on, let alone give any advice on and didn't on this one straight away until I saw how great everyone on here was, as there wasn't the almighty know it alls, (not knowing much except how to start arguments and trouble) on here as on a lot of other forums.

Alright now for the porting side of things,Paul of Mo as you clearly show, on the bench the heads clearly made gains, but to say the porting of them did nothing at all is not totally convincing either as there are so many variables such as, intake, carb, camshaft, ignition and the big one, exhaust. The change in technology of exhausts is unbelievable, even in the last 10 years let alone 40. It wasn't that long ago where you'd be told on a high performance 4V you'd need at least 2 inch primaries, nowadays even a 1 7/8in is considered to be as big as you need and even a tad big by some. Heck even Ford Australia in 72 made 2 1/4in primary pipes for the (to be outlawed) XA GT-HO Phase 4. Even in Fords own testing by using these pipes and machining around the intake valve that lessened compression a tad, but really improved airflow, the engine lost a little overall horsepower, but torque increased everywhere and became a fairly flat torque curve, using the basic same engine as the previous XY GT-HO Phase 3 (Boss 351 cam) with only those mods done to it, which is what they wanted for racing, especially at the Bathurst 500.

I've personally done a comparison with stock 4V's and when I gave them a bowl job. It wasn't done intentionally but a mate of mine was doing work on his XY when money permitted, plus he wanted to get use to drag racing for when his big engine was built. I did them the way I was shown how to do a nice pair of street/strip heads by the guy I mentioned who I worked for previously. There wasn't a whole heap of grinding needed to make them into,really good heads, probably a 3-4 hours all up. Anyway he decided to do them while we had the engine out to make sure everything was right. It was just a standard stroke, 302C rods, flat tops and pretty sure it had a Crane F246 Solid F/T cam in it with all my usual oiling mods. On top it had my old ported torker I sold him cheap, 750 DP and pretty sure MSD dizzy and 6AL and pretty sure Pacemaker 1 7/8in 4 into 1 with 2 1/2 dual system into a X pipe. The engine was just refreshed with the porting the only difference. The car used to run around the mid 12's and went 12.1? First run out and picked up a few MPH. He even said after we first got it running that the car felt a lot stronger and thought straight away it was quicker. Like I said, I'm not doubting you saw no change with the ported heads, but as I said just way too many variables too say it makes no difference at all. Also nobody disagrees that in standard form 4V heads are a terrific piece of gear, but with minor work can be made to be even better.

As I said previously I hold all of you guys that preceded us in the highest regard, as it was you guys doing the hard yards at the beginning and helped get high performance engines where they are today. There are probably a few others if I really think about it, but my mates XY sticks in my mind as I had to nurse him through everything from maintainance to racing the car, but it was such a beautiful car and fast when we put the 3V stroker in it, that he even regrets selling it. I didn't want a pi$$ing contest of who can do what or what I've done or I know of someone whose done this. Just wanted to tell of my experiences of mildly ported 4V Cleveland heads. I'm in no way a professional porter, but I can do a decent set of heads and if anyone ever wanted a full on set of heads, I've always sent them out to be done by the pros and for the last 14/15 years there's only one guy I trust and rely on to do them. Another thing I saw a pic of the 4V heads with the exhaust side milled and and the alloy high port plate in their place. Well I don't know in this day why anybody would use such an outdated technique. I don't know of any professional head guy here in Australia that uses those things, as a matter of fact I can't remember anyone doing that way over here since maybe the 80's. I asked my guy one day about this mod and he just laughed about it, then said, it's the best way to ruin a set of good 4V heads as over time with heat and the vigours of racing, all they'll end up doing is cracking. As for flow he said haven't seen anything that would make them any better than having the exhaust side done properly anyway. Also those port plates sold in that link, I don't think I'd have a piece of tin plate to act as the port floor (another thing that maybe great on a bench, but on a running engine?) The port plates sold here are a solid piece of alloy that's connected to the port floor with "glue" and held in with grub screws and the exhaust plates are about 1/4in plate. I've worked with these port plates quite a few times and the results are terrific.

Anyway sorry about the long winded post, but just to let people know of my background and that I'm not just someone who's read a few mags or something, but someone with real experience with real engines in the real world.

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12.56 ET W/430ish HP Ouch

 

I hope the car had street tires and a driver with poor reaction time.

 

Paul (of CA)

 

EDIT: well on second thought that may be about right...dam that last beer

 

I do not remember the exact customer but it was probably a full bodied car running in Super Stock.

 

Never damn the beer - beer is magical and needs no performance modifications - LOL

 

Paul of MO

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great story 4Vforever . its always fun to learn more about people on forums since one usually only sees their comments on various problems which doesnt always give much insight into them as a person . . i also know a lot of people in oz because i have sold cars and parts to many shops and people there for many years and if you are into falcons you might know or heard of a friend of mine named leo khouri . . and again great post and there are a lot of great people here including yurself

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OK, firstly don't want this to go off track like the last post did and the chest beating of who done what or I did this back then so guys today know nothing, blah, blah, blah. It was this and other types of BS that I walked away from the trade at the end of 2003 as I'd had enough of know it alls, guys that read books from 20 years ago, mates telling them that you should be doing this or that (well what are you doing here, get your mate to do it then, then usually told to get your $h!t and far cough, was my usual reply to that question) time wasters (no money and wanted everything) and so on. Since leaving the trade I've still kept an eye on what's going on in the high performance world and love what can be done with Cleveland engines these days and the aftermarket parts that are always coming out for them. Things change so much and so quickly these days, that since leaving back then, a fair bit of what was great or the ways things were done is now so outdated, let alone 40 years ago. While I hold these guys from "back in the day" in a very high regard and thankful for what they did with the technology they had back then as they were the ones who were playing with these things when they were new and showed us which way to go or not to go and pioneered things that, in basic form are still in use today, although modified/redesigned to today's requirements for high performance needs. But to say what was done or the way something was done 40 years ago doesn't necessarily mean that it still stands today, if this was true and everybody in the performance game thought, oh well, they said that doesn't work or doing this does nothing, then we'd all still be amazed at the power of a flathead V8.

I was pretty fortunate that I got to do what I said I was going to do (as a kid and all through high school) and that was build racing engines for a living. It didn't happen straight after leaving school, but I was determined and driven to get my dream job and couple of years later I got the job I was after. The guy I did my apprenticeship under had not long moved from New Zealand and set up a shop and the best part was it was only 5 mins drive from home, lol. All though at times he was a bit of a dick to work for, the one thing I'll give him, that he was a brilliant tradesman and use to build Outlaw Sprintcar engines over there. He taught me so much and had me doing stuff in my first year, that guys at college were doing in their third or final year. Also he told me not to think like everyone else, including him and not to be scared in trying something new or different. I worked for him for eight years all up, until he went back home, he offered me to buy him out, but I didn't want that much debt at that time in my life, regret it now though (another for the list, lol) I worked at a couple of other places (mainly standard stuff) then a big high performance shop, but hated it as they just wanted you to do everything their way and didn't like any thinking outside the square, so to speak. Then I ended up working for a guy I ran into one day and started talking cars and engines. This was the guy that builds some of the best Ford small blocks around and was the guy that blew my mind on 4V heads, as I'd had some experience with them, but nothing like I was about too. One of the first things he told me was about flow benches. I still remember the first thing he said to me about them, get 10 flow benches with 10 different operators and the same pair of heads and you'll get 10 different sets of numbers. Another thing, a bench is a tool and don't be fooled by numbers. Flow numbers sells heads to the uninformed and there's a lot of other information needed to know when doing heads. He only used the bench to see what differences were made and sometimes nothing shows up at all, but it does on the track and vice versa. His philosophy is the same with dynos, only good for bedding the engine and make sure everything's right and to give you a baseline tune, the real dyno is the 400 metre black track. Another couple of years there really open my eyes and I was like a kid in a candy shop, lol. But after a while the hour plus drive there then back again was starting to get old, let alone all of the hours working and going to the track etc. I ended up going in partners in a shop, but he ended up being a slimey prick and with all of the things mentioned earlier, I'd had enough and that was it. My wife didn't believe me until the next day when I came home with most of my stuff (what he didn't pinch) I still did a few engines for guys I knew or really good customers I'd had for years, until it became less and less to where it is now where I'll offer my advice to really good mates and supervise them on their build. I basically do nothing now except my own stuff. I belong to few other forums and this one and one other (it's very small and very selective) are the only ones I really post on, let alone give any advice on and didn't on this one straight away until I saw how great everyone on here was, as there wasn't the almighty know it alls, (not knowing much except how to start arguments and trouble) on here as on a lot of other forums.

Alright now for the porting side of things,Paul of Mo as you clearly show, on the bench the heads clearly made gains, but to say the porting of them did nothing at all is not totally convincing either as there are so many variables such as, intake, carb, camshaft, ignition and the big one, exhaust. The change in technology of exhausts is unbelievable, even in the last 10 years let alone 40. It wasn't that long ago where you'd be told on a high performance 4V you'd need at least 2 inch primaries, nowadays even a 1 7/8in is considered to be as big as you need and even a tad big by some. Heck even Ford Australia in 72 made 2 1/4in primary pipes for the (to be outlawed) XA GT-HO Phase 4. Even in Fords own testing by using these pipes and machining around the intake valve that lessened compression a tad, but really improved airflow, the engine lost a little overall horsepower, but torque increased everywhere and became a fairly flat torque curve, using the basic same engine as the previous XY GT-HO Phase 3 (Boss 351 cam) with only those mods done to it, which is what they wanted for racing, especially at the Bathurst 500.

I've personally done a comparison with stock 4V's and when I gave them a bowl job. It wasn't done intentionally but a mate of mine was doing work on his XY when money permitted, plus he wanted to get use to drag racing for when his big engine was built. I did them the way I was shown how to do a nice pair of street/strip heads by the guy I mentioned who I worked for previously. There wasn't a whole heap of grinding needed to make them into,really good heads, probably a 3-4 hours all up. Anyway he decided to do them while we had the engine out to make sure everything was right. It was just a standard stroke, 302C rods, flat tops and pretty sure it had a Crane F246 Solid F/T cam in it with all my usual oiling mods. On top it had my old ported torker I sold him cheap, 750 DP and pretty sure MSD dizzy and 6AL and pretty sure Pacemaker 1 7/8in 4 into 1 with 2 1/2 dual system into a X pipe. The engine was just refreshed with the porting the only difference. The car used to run around the mid 12's and went 12.1? First run out and picked up a few MPH. He even said after we first got it running that the car felt a lot stronger and thought straight away it was quicker. Like I said, I'm not doubting you saw no change with the ported heads, but as I said just way too many variables too say it makes no difference at all. Also nobody disagrees that in standard form 4V heads are a terrific piece of gear, but with minor work can be made to be even better.

As I said previously I hold all of you guys that preceded us in the highest regard, as it was you guys doing the hard yards at the beginning and helped get high performance engines where they are today. There are probably a few others if I really think about it, but my mates XY sticks in my mind as I had to nurse him through everything from maintainance to racing the car, but it was such a beautiful car and fast when we put the 3V stroker in it, that he even regrets selling it. I didn't want a pi$$ing contest of who can do what or what I've done or I know of someone whose done this. Just wanted to tell of my experiences of mildly ported 4V Cleveland heads. I'm in no way a professional porter, but I can do a decent set of heads and if anyone ever wanted a full on set of heads, I've always sent them out to be done by the pros and for the last 14/15 years there's only one guy I trust and rely on to do them. Another thing I saw a pic of the 4V heads with the exhaust side milled and and the alloy high port plate in their place. Well I don't know in this day why anybody would use such an outdated technique. I don't know of any professional head guy here in Australia that uses those things, as a matter of fact I can't remember anyone doing that way over here since maybe the 80's. I asked my guy one day about this mod and he just laughed about it, then said, it's the best way to ruin a set of good 4V heads as over time with heat and the vigours of racing, all they'll end up doing is cracking. As for flow he said haven't seen anything that would make them any better than having the exhaust side done properly anyway. Also those port plates sold in that link, I don't think I'd have a piece of tin plate to act as the port floor (another thing that maybe great on a bench, but on a running engine?) The port plates sold here are a solid piece of alloy that's connected to the port floor with "glue" and held in with grub screws and the exhaust plates are about 1/4in plate. I've worked with these port plates quite a few times and the results are terrific.

Anyway sorry about the long winded post, but just to let people know of my background and that I'm not just someone who's read a few mags or something, but someone with real experience with real engines in the real world.

Great history and I am sure great fun and some not so fun. Was all your work done with the regular large port 4 V CC heads or the Australian 2-V size port CC heads? A local guy in N.C. imports the 2-V Ausi heads and sells on eBay a lot. I have always been told that the 4-V heads were too large already and the Ausi 2-V CC heads were much better. What is your take on the differences.

There are also two different lots of racers or drivers. Straight line wide open for a few seconds and the road coarse or track racers that go up and down the rpm range. Each has it's own needs.

On the headers they are physics and based on the harmonics of the engine. No one size or length works for all situations for sure. I was never a physics guy, lol. I understand the same formulas used in calculating pipe organ dimensions are used for exhaust headers. Does anyone here know if that is true?

Here is the link to the local guy selling the Australian heads. He says he has sold over 100 sets. $450 without valves $475 with. http://winstonsalem.craigslist.org/pts/5415602288.html

Another topic I would like to hear comments on is the Extrude Hone process. It naturally takes areas of resistance off while the liquid or paste is pumped through the port or intake being polished. Here is their link. http://www.extrudehoneafm.com/industries/automotive/

The paste is a mixture of Silly Putty and an abrasive from coarse to fine.

I think BMW still uses this on the M cars but not sure, been around forever.

I know most of the big porting shops in the U.S. do not do it by hand anymore they use 7 axis mills that articulate the head and cutter to reach in and reshape the ports.

Another area where Australia was ahead of the U.S. was in the runner and port systems in zinc die cast tooling. Australia supplies most of the zinc used in the world and they worked out formulas to calculate the diameter of the runners and gates and surprisingly they would be smaller to get more flow. During their development they used clear runners so they could see the flow and found that all liquids including air has laminar flow and that bigger does not always mean more flow. We used their info in our casting department and could get the tooling to run twice as many parts per hour and use much less zinc in the runners all based on their flow calculations.

I always embrace change heck I have had two wife's that was good change, lol.

What I see in performance today is that they are addressing the weak areas with new materials and designs. Hey I think the Ford NASCAR engine has 90 mm diameter bearings on the cam. The larger diameter cam solved some of the cam twist issues in the old engines. All the valve spring pressure was winding up the cam. Variable cam timing has given us great mileage and direct port injection also. I for one will never reject new ideas but physics is physics and that will never change. The components have to change to gain for sure.

The coatings on components and treatments are a great benefit. About the whole drive train on a NASCAR racer goes through cryogenics. The brake disc last much longer, cranks, blocks get the grain structure refined and last longer and are stronger. It is not just toss it into a pot of liquid nitrogen it is a controlled going down and back to room temp.

We used the same technology to treat spot weld tips in manufacturing and they last much longer. We coated about ever draw die we had with some surface coating or treatment to reduce the friction.

Keep the Forum filled with all this information it keeps us all thinking and saying "What If". Here is one of Thomas Edison's quotes I saw when at the Ford Museum this past year. "Its obvious that we don't know one millionth of one percent about anything". That is me for sure.

Great bunch of gear heads here.

David

When a man is in the woods and talks and no women are there is he still wrong??:P

David

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Cheers guys, yes Barnett I've definitely heard of Leo Khouri, pretty sure he is from Melbourne and is a big player in the GT Falcon circle, pretty sure he's the guy who has the only onyx black XY GT-HO Phase 3 ever built. I love my country and love living here, but unfortunately it's being killed by useless politicians and strangled by political correctness. I remember a conversation with my first boss when he decided to go back to NZ. He told me I should head to the US and try my luck over there as there were way more opportunities over there and that someone like myself was being wasted here. He use to say that he was going to show me how to do something and I just say, I reckon I can do that. He'd let me have a crack and sure most times I'd get it spot on, he'd ask where did you learn that and my reply was always, just watched you do it. In the end he'd just end up saying want to have a go doing this, lol. The only thing I remember him really needing him to show me up close was grinding cranks (what a boring job) but went through it once with him and didn't need to be shown again. He always use to tell me I was the best apprentice that ever worked for him, probably because I was the only one, lol, but he'd say where he'd worked over in NZ, he reckoned he was always showing or telling the apprentices everything about a dozen times before it sort of sunk in (probably because they're Kiwis,lol) But it was something I couldn't do as I was married and our son was only young, plus I'd miss home.

Yes David some really great times and some WTF moments too. I was pretty lucky to have worked for some of the people I worked for, as I learnt to machine and build everything from tiny two strokes right up to earthmoving/mining equipment, but my first love was always high performance V8's and it didn't particularly matter which make, as long as they were built to go fast, lol. When it came to Clevelands, I've used both 2V and 4V's. In the early days it was a lot of 2V stuff as the information about them being the better head alround was everywhere and we didn't know any better. I remember when I saw my first 4V head in the flesh, I thought they were just totally awsome and could work out why everyone bagged them out. This thought was always in my mind, but no one would build one because of the stigma and wrong information about them. The 2V heads are a fairly decent thing,moor what they are, but require some serious work to make them right. If you run your fingers down the ports on a 2V, you'll notice 2 of the ports have tighter turn around the pushrods of these ports. Up to about .400-.450 lift these heads flow pretty darn well, but after that they go backwards. These are one of those heads that people still argue about today, as to get them to flow right requires plenty of work. In saying that though, they are one of things spoken about what'll show up on a bench, these things will go turbulent, can't get them to flow exactly the same on the two different type ports, but for some reason can make some good power. Years ago we'd build a stock stroke 2V headed Clevelands that would run in the mid 11's, but I reckon if you were to put those heads on a bench, they'd be turbulent as all get out and more than likely go backwards around the .500-.550 lift mark, but hey they worked a treat and it wasn't a one off fluke engine, I reckon we'd have built 30+ engines in that same basic spec and were all around the same times (depend on things like gearing)

I was lucky to have had experiences with whole different variety of building different types of engines for different types of motorsports. Everything from dirt track to road racers, burnouts to boats everything in between. As I said my boss was from a Sprintcar background and when he came to Australia he gave up racing V8's and raced litres as the costs were way less. One of his old Sprintcar engines (406 Donovan, Brobix headed) ended up being sold to one of our good trade customers and put in his boat, as he was into racing them and what a ride that thing was, lol. I was into the drags back then and also use to build a few burnout engines on the side and another of our trade customers raced sportsman classes on race tracks. So we were pretty busy doing all of this for other customers, plus some fairly tuff street/strip engines as well as all of the other day to day stuff, so we were usually fairly busy. I tell you what though for the money that guy charges for 302 heads is pretty good dollars, if I paid any more than $80 a pair (usually $50 tops) I'd be pissed, maybe we could go into business David as I think I've at least 6 pairs and 4 standard bore blocks and a few at .030 that would right to be rehoned and use again, plus I could find heaps more at decent prices and not Epay prices, lol.

As with exhausts these days, it truely is a science in itself, unlike the old days where bigger should be better. Today it's a different formula for different types of engines, short track is totally different to the long track set up. Different pipe lengths, diameters, collector position, muffler types, etc, etc. I started looking into a while back and it's just mind blowing the theories behind it all, exhaust pulses,pressure waves, reversion, plus all the different working behind it, just easier to call someone and tell them what you're after, lol.

As for extrusion hones, I personally never had anything to do with them. One place I worked at for a short while had one, but I never used it or come to think of it, never seen it used. In this day and age why would you, especially with CNC multi axis mills, the job these things do is amazing. I remember a set I seen that were done in the early days of it, from memory it cost like $5000 for the pair plus shipping as they came from the US. On top of this they still needed to be finished off by hand. I think the very early ones were only 3 axis CNC mills.

As for two wives, didn't you learn your lesson the first time, lol, had go another round of punishment. I can't complain, my wife is pretty good and sticks by whether good or bad and is happy for me to do my cars. As for change though, it's a double edged sword, some change is great, like engine performance and comfy chairs and some not so great, like our useless government sending the country broke and keep expecting the working people to pick up the tab.

I agree how good it is now with the way things are either from being treated and/or coatings used, plus also the materials being used. I remember being in an argument with someone about how great engines will become with advent of cryogenics. Obviously the guy knew nothing about it back then and was going on about how heat treating couldn't be beat because of how when the engine runs the heat created, so heat treating could only work as how would freezing parts be any good. It was like he thought they were going to melt or something. When trying to explain how it worked by bringing the structures of metal in closer together, thus making the parts stronger in doing so, he still didn't get it and thought it melt or something stupid and parts break. I just gave up as you can't beat stupid, as they'll just bring you down to their level and beat you with experience every time.

Anyway have a good one all

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unfortunately it's being killed by useless politicians and strangled by political correctness

 

 

Same here. I've always wanted to go over there. Had a great trip planned and two V8 Supercar races to see the Falcons before they were gone. Didn't happen. Ended up buying a house for daughter to live in. :(

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