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351C 4V Valve and valvetrain replacement


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Barnett, what is the name of your business? I'd like to look you up.

 

Your polarizing comments have been noted and dealt with on other websites. In recent years you have been banned from at least 3 mustang oriented and different forums for exactly what you are doing here. You don't seem to learn that your MO really should change.

 

There is more than your point of view.

Mike

__________________________________

Black 1985 GT

Yellow 1973 Mustang Mach 1

Black 2012 5.0 GT, 6-speed, Brembo brakes, 3.73's

Wimbledon White 1966 F-100 Shortbed Styleside, 390ci, Tremec 3550, FiTech EFI

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i am quite familiar with that thread and it is people that don't understand oil very well should not attempt to dissuade others from using products that are perfectly fine.

 

You mean like.... a camshaft?

 

The difference is that I happen to know exactly what I am talking about since I do this for a living and not as an occasional hobbyist and the place he is got the cam from does not seem to offer other brands unlike an auto parts store where you can buy any brand of oil you want, therefore, the cam supplier has to sell him what they have irregardless of how horrible it is for his app . This isn't really all that hard to figure out.

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The difference is that I happen to know exactly what I am talking about since I do this for a living and not as an occasional hobbyist and the place he is got the cam from does not seem to offer other brands unlike an auto parts store where you can buy any brand of oil you want, therefore, the cam supplier has to sell him what they have irregardless of how horrible it is for his app . This isn't really all that hard to figure out.

.

 

Ego much?

 

You know what they say about the people who think they know what they are talking about?

 

Again, What is the name of your business?

Mike

__________________________________

Black 1985 GT

Yellow 1973 Mustang Mach 1

Black 2012 5.0 GT, 6-speed, Brembo brakes, 3.73's

Wimbledon White 1966 F-100 Shortbed Styleside, 390ci, Tremec 3550, FiTech EFI

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The difference is that I happen to know exactly what I am talking about since I do this for a living and not as an occasional hobbyist and the place he is got the cam from does not seem to offer other brands unlike an auto parts store where you can buy any brand of oil you want, therefore, the cam supplier has to sell him what they have irregardless of how horrible it is for his app . This isn't really all that hard to figure out.

.

 

Ego much?

 

You know what they say about the people who think they know what they are talking about?

 

Again, What is the name of your business?

 

No ego, simple facts . I certainly don't know it all but I know what I know.

 

You're the one that asked me a question, if you don't like my replies, stop asking me questions . Some people prefer to go to a doctor or a mechanic that is confident in their skill and knowledge instead of one that says "Well I hope the operation turns out ok for ya" . Again, it's really not that hard to figure out, at least for some people.

.

.

.

Your polarizing comments have been noted and dealt with on other websites. In recent years you have been banned from at least 3 mustang oriented and different forums for exactly what you are doing here. You don't seem to learn that your MO really should change. There is more than your point of view.

 

Really, that's odd because more than one person has posted under that name and it appears that I have 19 positive reputation points for my posts on this site including some coming from moderators and I have exactly ZERO "warning' points therefore, I suggest you don't post about things you know ABSOLUTELY NOTHING ABOUT.

 

Also, there is a vast difference between opinions and imperical facts, and it seems that Mystic Fish AND his cam mfg happens to agree with ME and NOT YOU regarding the Joe Gibbs Break In oil you so definitively stated shouldn't be used.

 

I am also not the only one that mentioned that there are better cams for his app, lol.

 

Any further harassment by you will be reported to the moderators.

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Oil discussions can be long and heated, and it is a subject where the more you know, the more you realize how little you know.

 

ZDDP levels are important but they are NOT the sole determining factor of an oils overall protective qualities and neither is a load bearing test machine.

 

Also, as far as that cam goes, I know you were only asking about the springs, but I build high perf engines and have been a comp and crane cam dealer for maybe 25 years, and i have nothing to gain by you changing the cam, but i can't impress enough on you what a horrible, horrible, horrible, cam that is for your app . An engine is going to last a very, very, long time, so the owner is going to have to live with what he has for a very, very, long time, so even though it would be a hassle to return it and you might loose some money in the deal, a few dollars should not be the determining factor in whether you change the cam . I could spend hours trying to explain cam design to you but it wouldn't help, and just reading a short paragraph or two about cam design from some cam mfg won't help either, but again, the longer the valves stay open, the less compression an engine will have . lsa and icl overlap are also contributing factors but one factor no novice ever considers is ramp rate/acceleration rate which can only be calculated if you also have the duration @ .200" of lift.

 

With the advancements in cam technologies since that dinosaur was "designed", that cam really doesn't even have a place in engine building today.

 

There is a very good reason why the comp cams XE and Magnum series cams outsell all other styles and mfg's by around 10 to 1 . Lunatis Voodoo series was designed Harold Berkshire whom is the same person that designed Comp Cams XE and some other series . Howards also makes extremely good cams, and many are better than the XE and Voodoo cams.

 

Comp Cams also owns Lunati and Voodoo.

 

This is a valid post for once from this man - the cam you are planning to use will be absolutely horrible in a street driven vehicle. High idle, No vacuum, no low end power, and will run out of high end power under 6,000 rpm. Other than that it is perfect.

 

Go to 351C.net and with one simple search you will find many excellent off the shelf cam choices with real world impressions shared. Howard cams are excellent and if you give them custom grind specs they are always right on the money. I have bought over 100 custom grinds from Howards over the years with great results.

 

Very Drivable but FUN!

http://www.summitracing.com/parts/cca-sk32-242-4?seid=srese1&gclid=CNzb7sOpvMsCFQwxaQodTmMDKA

 

A Little Annoying on a street driven car but a little more FUN!

http://www.summitracing.com/parts/cca-cl32-246-4?seid=srese1&gclid=CNjJzuupvMsCFQcLaQodjcwJJA

 

(4V's like a little more lift than these off the shelf grinds but the extra $$$ is not worth the cost of a custom grind)

 

---------

 

Now for break in oil. I do not understand the big deal and the angst.

 

Build the engine

 

Use generous amounts of assembly lube.

 

Use a drill to spin the oil pump - just long enough to see that you have good oil pressure.

 

Use a known carburetor that will start the engine and run the engine. I usually pull one off of a running and recently driven car to eliminate the unknown carb variable.

 

Static time the engine and use a timing light to make sure you have spark when the distributor hits about 10 deg.

 

Fill the fuel bowls with a little gas down the carb to prime the engine

 

Use a high quality oil such as Mobile 1 full synthetic 5w30 or 10w40

 

Fire the car and if it does not start right up do not let it crank and crank and crank.

Figure out the problem - spark? air? fuel? and fix it.

 

Start the car and set the idle to 3000 rpm and let it run there for 30 min. If it needs to be shut down then shut it down but do not let it idle. Do not let it get overly hot. Extra shop fans and even a garden sprayer to mist the radiator. Plus this will give you something to do for 30 min. Set a timer so you do not end early.

 

Change the oil and filter

 

Run engine at 2500 for 30 min

 

Set final idle and timing

 

Drive normally for 500 miles. City and Highway driving (no hot rodding).

 

Change the oil and filter - DONE

 

- Paul of MO

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Oil discussions can be long and heated, and it is a subject where the more you know, the more you realize how little you know.

 

ZDDP levels are important but they are NOT the sole determining factor of an oils overall protective qualities and neither is a load bearing test machine.

 

Also, as far as that cam goes, I know you were only asking about the springs, but I build high perf engines and have been a comp and crane cam dealer for maybe 25 years, and i have nothing to gain by you changing the cam, but i can't impress enough on you what a horrible, horrible, horrible, cam that is for your app . An engine is going to last a very, very, long time, so the owner is going to have to live with what he has for a very, very, long time, so even though it would be a hassle to return it and you might loose some money in the deal, a few dollars should not be the determining factor in whether you change the cam . I could spend hours trying to explain cam design to you but it wouldn't help, and just reading a short paragraph or two about cam design from some cam mfg won't help either, but again, the longer the valves stay open, the less compression an engine will have . lsa and icl overlap are also contributing factors but one factor no novice ever considers is ramp rate/acceleration rate which can only be calculated if you also have the duration @ .200" of lift.

 

With the advancements in cam technologies since that dinosaur was "designed", that cam really doesn't even have a place in engine building today.

 

There is a very good reason why the comp cams XE and Magnum series cams outsell all other styles and mfg's by around 10 to 1 . Lunatis Voodoo series was designed Harold Berkshire whom is the same person that designed Comp Cams XE and some other series . Howards also makes extremely good cams, and many are better than the XE and Voodoo cams.

 

Comp Cams also owns Lunati and Voodoo.

 

This is a valid post for once from this wise man - the cam you are planning to use will be absolutely horrible in a street driven vehicle. High idle, No vacuum, no low end power, and will run out of high end power under 6,000 rpm. Other than that it is perfect.

 

Go to 351C.net and with one simple search you will find many excellent off the shelf cam choices with real world impressions shared. Howard cams are excellent and if you give them custom grind specs they are always right on the money. I have bought over 100 custom grinds from Howards over the years with great results.

 

Very Drivable but FUN!

http://www.summitracing.com/parts/cca-sk32-242-4?seid=srese1&gclid=CNzb7sOpvMsCFQwxaQodTmMDKA

 

A Little Annoying on a street driven car but a little more FUN!

http://www.summitracing.com/parts/cca-cl32-246-4?seid=srese1&gclid=CNjJzuupvMsCFQcLaQodjcwJJA

 

(4V's like a little more lift than these off the shelf grinds but the extra $$$ is not worth the cost of a custom grind)

 

---------

 

Now for break in oil. I do not understand the big deal and the angst.

 

Build the engine

 

Use generous amounts of assembly lube.

 

Use a drill to spin the oil pump - just long enough to see that you have good oil pressure.

 

Use a known carburetor that will start the engine and run the engine. I usually pull one off of a running and recently driven car to eliminate the unknown carb variable.

 

Static time the engine and use a timing light to make sure you have spark when the distributor hits about 10 deg.

 

Fill the fuel bowls with a little gas down the carb to prime the engine

 

Use a high quality oil such as Mobile 1 full synthetic 5w30 or 10w40

 

Fire the car and if it does not start right up do not let it crank and crank and crank.

Figure out the problem - spark? air? fuel? and fix it.

 

Start the car and set the idle to 3000 rpm and let it run there for 30 min. If it needs to be shut down then shut it down but do not let it idle. Do not let it get overly hot. Extra shop fans and even a garden sprayer to mist the radiator. Plus this will give you something to do for 30 min. Set a timer so you do not end early.

 

Change the oil and filter

 

Run engine at 2500 for 30 min

 

Set final idle and timing

 

Drive normally for 500 miles. City and Highway driving (no hot rodding).

 

Change the oil and filter - DONE

 

- Paul of MO

 

Dang Paul you nailed it right on the head

Pretty much how I've done all my break ins on motors over the years..Well laid out and a simple recipe for success !

LOVE OF BEAUTY IS TASTE..THE CREATION OF BEAUTY IS ART

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I really appreciate all of the conversation and input on the camshaft choice for the 351 4V and we may reconsider changing to a more suitable choice for the street motor.

 

The only thing that surprised me about the way this post went down was the perceived negativity. There are really some knowledge people on this site and I value input from everyone.

 

I will also concede that maybe I should have began with a better question like the best cam choice for a stock 10.7:1 compression ratio 4 speed car with a 3.25 rear.

 

I have certainly learned my lesson.

 

Jeff-

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I really appreciate all of the conversation and input on the camshaft choice for the 351 4V and we may reconsider changing to a more suitable choice for the street motor.

 

The only thing that surprised me about the way this post went down was the perceived negativity. There are really some knowledge people on this site and I value input from everyone.

 

I will also concede that maybe I should have began with a better question like the best cam choice for a stock 10.7:1 compression ratio 4 speed car with a 3.25 rear.

 

I have certainly learned my lesson.

 

Jeff-

 

No lesson to be learned - you are OK and asked a perfectly valid question. The second of the 2 cam links I put up will be perfect for what you are building with the 4 speed. 10.7 is a little steep for a street driven car and will force you to buy premium fuel and/or you will have to retard your timing a bit and give up some performance. Not a big deal but it makes the car just a little bit more of a hassle to go get ice cream with the grand kids.

 

I like the fish as well!

 

- Paul of MO

 

Oh - welcome to the group!

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This is a valid post for once from this man

 

Your comment is unwarranted and abrasive and has been reported to a moderator due to the fact that you continue to make comments like this to me and others and because you gave me a negative reputation point for no valid reason other than the fact that I disagreed with you on a previous post . I also sent emails to a MODERATOR and ADMINISTRATOR regarding your behavior and they both gave me POSITIVE reputation points in the past.

 

You can also expect several negative reputation points from me regarding your many abrasive posts now since you want to play this childish game.

 

 

Use a high quality oil such as Mobile 1 full synthetic 5w30 or 10w40

 

It is very unwise to use synthetic oil for break in because the rings may not seat properly . They will in fact seat more easily with regular oil . This is even stated by AMSOIL and all they sell is synthetic oil .

 

Also, many synthetic oils lack sufficient amounts of ZDDP to adequately protect the cam.

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BREAK IN PROCEDURE

 

The following is what I do

 

Tighten all the hoses, then tighten them again.

 

Check the intake bolts for being tight even though you previously tightened them.

 

Make sure the timing marks are easily readable . You can use liquid white out to put a line at TDC and one very tiny dot at 10 degrees BTDC and two tiny dots at 20 and three dots at 30 and four at 40 and put some on the end of the pointer.

 

Use break in oil.

 

Remove the thermostat to insure there are no air pockets or make sure there are none if you use a thermostat and use straight water . Do not use antifreeze.

 

Spin the oil pump for 20 seconds with a 1/2" drill . A smaller drill may burn out . Hold the drill firmly because it may try and rip out of your hands.

 

Rotate the crank 180 degrees and spin pump for 10 seconds

Rotate the crank 180 degrees and spin pump for 10 seconds

Rotate the crank 180 degrees and spin pump for 10 seconds

Rotate the crank 180 degrees and spin pump for 10 seconds

 

Rotating the crank will insure that at some point all the valves are closed so they can fill up completely.

 

Remove and plug the distributor vacuum advance hose and plug it.

 

Remove all the plug wires except for number one cylinder then crank the engine over and set the timing to 10 degrees BTDC then reconnect wires . Make sure there is room to advance the distributor farther if needed . If there is not enough room, re-clock it one tooth . Reconnect wires afterwards.

 

If you have a Holley style carb, you can prefill the carb with gas thru the vent holes in the top until it is just below the inspection holes in the float bowl or below the center of the clear sight windows . One way this can be done is with a plastic ketchup bottle.

 

Adjust the choke so it is fully open.

 

Have a screw driver ready to adjust the idle speed with.

 

Have someone start the car while I operate the choke and throttle.

 

Rev it to around 2000 rpms as soon as it starts.

 

Release the choke after around 15 seconds then turn the idle screw in to maintain the rpm at 2000.

 

Check the timing to make sure it is around 25 degrees . If the timing is too low, it can cause the engine to get hot and actually make headers glow red hot.

 

Place a fan directly in front of the radiator blowing at the rad.

 

After a few minutes, the rpm will increase . Reduce it to 2000 rpm and continue to adjust it as necessary throughout the break in process.

 

Let it run for 25 minutes.

 

Watch the hoses for leaks and check the temp gauge .

 

WARNING - If you work the throttle manually, wear goggles to protect your eyes from flying debris.

.

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Whats the name of your business again?

 

x4

 

I do not believe he has a legitimate answer.

 

I must apologize to Mystic Fish(the original poster of this thread). Sorry it was hijacked. I will attempt to start over.

 

Unfortunately, finding a truly informative thread about a good camshaft choice for our 351c engines is near impossible because of the injected perception of what is "good" for one person is not necessarily "good" for the next person. A seemingly endless combination of factors can go into a camshaft selection. I only feel comfortable offering advice from my personal experiences of working on my Mach 1 over the past 21 years. Building two separate engines for it over that time and putting tens of thousands of miles of road behind me. I have built several hundred ford, GM and mopar engines in my early years working in an engine rebuilding shop, and my years working in a local garage before I joined the Air Force 23 years ago. During that time I have honed my skills and developed many idiosyncrasies that work for me when I'm assembling an engine. I have been published. I have had failures when I pushed the limits. If someone touts that they have NEVER had an issue in this industry/hobby after 40 years of doing this then I need to know the name of their business and throw money at them.

 

There is no cookie cutter answer to your query. With the Erson camshaft you selected, while I have no experience with it I find it hard to believe that a company would develop and market a lousy product that does not perform as described, given the proper application specifics were adhered to, and market it for years and years without listening to owner feedback that it sucks.

 

Believing there are more "modern" camshaft profiles that deliver better performance is one of the biggest myths of the industry. It's how they further their sales campaign. If modernization is always happening, then how is it I can buy the same spec camshaft today from said modern company that they sold me 17 years ago? Drivability intentions(timing events), and matching lift to airflow capability is what you are trying to achieve with camshaft selection. When companies tout modern profiles it usually includes all of the rest of the modern supporting valvetrain to match it's capabilities. Modern cylinder heads, modern intake manifolds, exhausts, valve spring technology, roller cams, etc. Put the modern cam with the stockish valvetrain components, stock intake manifold, exhaust, torque converter, etc, and the claimed gains disappear. Camshaft grinders can predict engine performance and machine camshafts from computer programs that calculate the best profile for a given application accurate to the ten thousandth of a degree. Again, modern performance claims in the camshaft industry really only support modern engine combinations. If you have a mostly vintage combination, then the camshaft company's older grind, likely is very well suited to the application description. There are many people that still like to install the vintage solid lifter BOSS 351 camshaft into our engines. It's still a great performer, in it's intended application. Could someone install one that performs better? Sure, but what does "better" mean? More horsepower, better fuel economy, less emissions, wider power band, higher power band, more torque? What works better for one person will not always work better for the next. And then what does that new better part cost? What are the gains to be had for that cost? Are the gains worth the cost to the individual? All subjective. I think I've said the same thing like three times now.

 

Howard Cams have a very good reputation as do others. I have my cam guy who I've been using for the past 11 years now. You need to be careful what you ask for because you get exactly that. He uses different lobes from various manufacturers in the industry to design his camshafts. For the same engine once I got a cam from him by COMP, then after some combination changes, the next one came from Lunati. Just because one company owns another does not mean they share proprietary information.

 

Other engines I have built in the past I have used off the shelf grinds and couldn't be more happy with the way they perform.

 

Paul of MO had some good suggestions, as did others.

 

If you really want to delve into Cleveland performance, you need to look across the pond to Australia.

 

I will not delve back into the oil subject as the topic is too volatile in present company.

 

Hopefully you can find what you are looking for, it works well for you and meets your expectations.

Mike

__________________________________

Black 1985 GT

Yellow 1973 Mustang Mach 1

Black 2012 5.0 GT, 6-speed, Brembo brakes, 3.73's

Wimbledon White 1966 F-100 Shortbed Styleside, 390ci, Tremec 3550, FiTech EFI

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I have built several hundred ford, GM and mopar engines in my early years working in an engine rebuilding shop, and my years working in a local garage before I joined the Air Force 23 years ago.

 

I have been published.

Ego much?

 

I agree with the second comment he made.

 

 

If you really want to delve into Cleveland performance' date=' you need to look across the pond to Australia.[/quote']

Ego much?

 

I again agree with the second comment he made.

 

His first comment is extremely offensive, condescending and insulting to every American engine builder and cam designer etc.

 

It is also contradictory since in post 17 he admittedly got a camshaft from an AMERICAN cam designer named Ed Curtis, so if australia is the place to get the Cleveland power why is he using a US cam designer instead of an australian one?

 

It is also contradictory because if he truly believes that australia has people that are much more knowledgeable about Clevelands than people in the US are, WHY IS HE HERE?

 

Why is he not on sites with his fellow australians instead of hanging out on one that is filled with complete and utter morons because we Americans don't know diddly squat about Cleveland engine building even though it was designed over here in the good ol' USA and wasn't put in use in australia until a few years later?

 

There are SEVERAL big Mustang forums in australia including a forum that is 100% dedicated to Clevelands only that he could get all that great engine building info from, but oddly enough one of the well known people on that site that help people with cams is also an American.

 

There is an australian cam company named crow cams, but even though according to him, australians know more about performance Cleveland engine building than Americans do, US made cams outsell them by maybe 30 to 1.

 

There are definitely good engine builders in australia . There are also good parts designers like Scott Cook and good parts like CHI heads which are sometimes used in the Engine Masters Challenge in heavily modified form . They also have a decent carb guy named zok.

 

.

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Wow, if you want to cut through all the confusion and unnecessary rhetoric, contact the people at the links below . They are some of the most knowledgeable people that you can currently get on the phone to talk about camshafts with.

 

I can also guarantee you with 110% certainty that NO cam designer in the US will tell you that Joe Gibbs Break In Oil is bad to break engines in on like mezapo did even though they may suggest something else that they prefer more.

 

Mark

 

http://www.bulletcams.com/

 

Chris

 

http://www.straubtechnologies.com/

.

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OK guys, let's dial this back a notch and continue to keep it civil.

 

Building engines is like changing your screen saver in Windows - there is no one way to do it that's better than the others - we all get results in the end. It's hard to argue with folks who work in the industry and have the expertise and experience that comes with that, just as it's hard to argue with those who have done it for years with continued excellent results. Everybody has brought value to this discussion, and there is a LOT of good information in this thread - let's not muddy it up by bumping egos.

 

Besides, none of this would even be in question if everybody went "roller everything" like I did. :cool: :whistling:

Eric

mach1sig2.gif

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Since this is my car, I feel compelled to add a comment and I wish to thank everyone for the time and effort that was spent composing what were sometimes quite lengthy posts. Although this thread, at times, appeared to be a transcript from a Republican debate, all information was taken into consideration. It appears that the supplier actually sent us the wrong cam and not the one we asked for, so we will be returning the offending camshaft for something more friendly. One final disclaimer: Any offense taken by Republicans is purely unintentional. (It's actually my party of choice).

Tradition is the preservation of the flame, not the adoration of the ashes.

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Since this is my car, I feel compelled to add a comment and I wish to thank everyone for the time and effort that was spent composing what were sometimes quite lengthy posts. Although this thread, at times, appeared to be a transcript from a Republican debate, all information was taken into consideration. It appears that the supplier actually sent us the wrong cam and not the one we asked for, so we will be returning the offending camshaft for something more friendly. One final disclaimer: Any offense taken by Republicans is purely unintentional. (It's actually my party of choice).

 

 

And in addition to Dave's comments above, it should please most members to know that the specs on the cam we actually ordered in the first place were:

.484/.517 lift

280/292 duration

208/214 duration @.050

114 degree LSA

58 degrees overlap

 

I assume full responsibility for not recognizing that we actually received the wrong cam and did not double check specs until the heat rose in here...

 

What makes the situation on our end even more confusing for the supplier and machine shop who ordered the cam is that we asked for a specific cam and they had already sourced a different grind only to change it to what we wanted. Then either the supplier, the machine shop, or either Dave or myself transposed a catalog number when communicating to the supplier what we wanted.

 

Now back to the valve springs... :whistling:

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LOL, xlnt guys.

 

Ok, valve springs . . It might be best to start half way over.

 

First of all, is that the lift with 1.73 rockers or 1.6?

 

In my experience of doing this for however long I have been doing this, I would not use stock valve springs.

 

I would use springs with around 115 - 120 closed and around 260 open . They may loose a little pressure fairly quickly until they take a set . Comp Cams springs are fine for this app . There is no need for Pac Racing or Tool Room or Manley NexTek springs etc.

 

As mentioned in my break in technique, my experience is that you can safely use up to 280 open spring pressure IF you use the exact same technique I do . I can not attest to other techniques since I have used the same one for however long I have been doing this.

 

Just so you are aware, that cam will have a fairly mild idle . If you want a moderately nasty idle, I would consider getting a different cam.

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1.6 ratio is Windsor not Cleveland - your cam is spec'd for 1.73's

 

That will be a very nicely behaved cam with your 4 speed. It will have a nice lumpy idle but will not be obnoxious.

 

We now all seem to be in agreement that you do not need to run "break in" springs on a cam with this lift - good - one less thing to worry about.

 

Any good aftermarket spring set will work - I would just get the set from whom ever made the cam as they are all about the same cost and quality.

 

Low RPM's while breaking in a Cleveland will kill the cam. If 3000 seems to high then back it off a bit - just be sure that you are over 2500.

 

Ford extracted a little more HP on the Cleveland by changing the throws on the crank - it cuts through the oil with less splash. Less splash means less oil getting up on the cam lobes and as such the cam runs a bit hotter at lower RPM. You do not want this when breaking in a cam shaft.

 

Glad you did not bail from the group - Several of us were worried that we had gotten off to a bad start with you.

 

- Paul of MO

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1.6 ratio is Windsor not Cleveland - your cam is spec'd for 1.73's

 

That will be a very nicely behaved cam with your 4 speed. It will have a nice lumpy idle but will not be obnoxious.

 

We now all seem to be in agreement that you do not need to run "break in" springs on a cam with this lift - good - one less thing to worry about.

 

Any good aftermarket spring set will work - I would just get the set from whom ever made the cam as they are all about the same cost and quality.

 

Low RPM's while breaking in a Cleveland will kill the cam. If 3000 seems to high then back it off a bit - just be sure that you are over 2500.

 

Ford extracted a little more HP on the Cleveland by changing the throws on the crank - it cuts through the oil with less splash. Less splash means less oil getting up on the cam lobes and as such the cam runs a bit hotter at lower RPM. You do not want this when breaking in a cam shaft.

 

Glad you did not bail from the group - Several of us were worried that we had gotten off to a bad start with you.

 

- Paul of MO

 

No problem Paul. Jeff works in Customer Service and I'm a Quality Engineer. Pretty much impossible to offend us.

Tradition is the preservation of the flame, not the adoration of the ashes.

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1.73 rockers for sure.

 

And since the engine will be mostly stock with the original carb and intake, and will have 10.2:1 compression (Stock is 10.7:1) and most likely will have stock exhaust manifolds, no more cam is really needed or advisable IMO.

 

I believe the cam manufacturer (Erson) recommends springs with each cam that they sell and pretty closely matches the rates given by Barnett.

 

Delving into rebuilding a 351C 4V engine has become quite the exercise. Characteristics of the engine and 4V heads in particular are a bit different than the B/RB Mopars that I am used to. And trying to understand those quirks of the 351C 4V has made this journey interesting and eventful.

 

I guess I am feeling an little pressure since I am helping a friend and don't want him to have something he is not happy with, or worse something that may fail..

 

And it will be much harder than this to get rid of me!::thumb::


1.6 ratio is Windsor not Cleveland - your cam is spec'd for 1.73's

 

That will be a very nicely behaved cam with your 4 speed. It will have a nice lumpy idle but will not be obnoxious.

 

We now all seem to be in agreement that you do not need to run "break in" springs on a cam with this lift - good - one less thing to worry about.

 

Any good aftermarket spring set will work - I would just get the set from whom ever made the cam as they are all about the same cost and quality.

 

Low RPM's while breaking in a Cleveland will kill the cam. If 3000 seems to high then back it off a bit - just be sure that you are over 2500.

 

Ford extracted a little more HP on the Cleveland by changing the throws on the crank - it cuts through the oil with less splash. Less splash means less oil getting up on the cam lobes and as such the cam runs a bit hotter at lower RPM. You do not want this when breaking in a cam shaft.

 

Glad you did not bail from the group - Several of us were worried that we had gotten off to a bad start with you.

 

- Paul of MO

 

The 2500-3000 RPM for break in is something that I have read in several places and have wondered why the cam card said to break in at 2000. I also have the book recommended everywhere about the 351C engine and will look up cam/lifter break in this evening.

 

Thanks for the input.

 

Jeff-


1.6 ratio is Windsor not Cleveland - your cam is spec'd for 1.73's

 

That will be a very nicely behaved cam with your 4 speed. It will have a nice lumpy idle but will not be obnoxious.

 

We now all seem to be in agreement that you do not need to run "break in" springs on a cam with this lift - good - one less thing to worry about.

 

Any good aftermarket spring set will work - I would just get the set from whom ever made the cam as they are all about the same cost and quality.

 

Low RPM's while breaking in a Cleveland will kill the cam. If 3000 seems to high then back it off a bit - just be sure that you are over 2500.

 

Ford extracted a little more HP on the Cleveland by changing the throws on the crank - it cuts through the oil with less splash. Less splash means less oil getting up on the cam lobes and as such the cam runs a bit hotter at lower RPM. You do not want this when breaking in a cam shaft.

 

Glad you did not bail from the group - Several of us were worried that we had gotten off to a bad start with you.

 

- Paul of MO

 

No problem Paul. Jeff works in Customer Service and I'm a Quality Engineer. Pretty much impossible to offend us.

 

Dave, I thought you weren't allowed to call yourself an engineer anymore ...... :whistling:

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1.73 rockers for sure.

 

Mystic Fish, I will explain my question regarding the lift . I am very well aware of the rocker ratio on a Cleveland head and have been since around 1970 so I was not asking what rocker ratio you had so my aplogies if my question was not clear . The fact is that I have seen the lift listed for 1.6 rockers on some Cleveland cams so it never hurts to take two minutes to simply verify it . The other easy way to determine valve lift is to simply take the lobe lift on the cam card and multiply it by the your rocker ratio...easy deal.

 

 

 

The 2500-3000 RPM for break in is something that I have read in several places and have wondered why the cam card said to break in at 2000. I also have the book recommended everywhere about the 351C engine and will look up cam/lifter break in this evening.

 

As far as break in rpm, I have broken in dozens of cams in Cleveland engines and so have my friends whom are also professional engine builders, and although some of them rev them to around 2400 rpm, none of them rev them anywhere near 3000 rpm and none of us has had a cam failure during break in.

 

As far as needing the higher rpm to get sufficient oil on the cam from the crankshaft, this then does not appear to be a necessity in our experience, however, others may have had cam failures but since I don't know their specific break in techniques, I have no idea why that might be.

 

Oil not only comes from the crank throwing it on the cam, it also comes from the clearance between the lifters and the lifter bore, which is typically worn a little on a used engine which thereby allows MORE oil to flow DIRECTLY onto the cam than it did when the engine was new.

 

The biggest killers of flat tappet cams during break in are incorrect oil and high spring pressures.

 

If you want additional info on the ideal cam break in rpm for a Cleveland, I suggest you contact Dan Jones or Keith Craft . Dan is president of the Pantera club and between him and other professional engine builders he knows, they have probably broken in more Cleveland engines than everyone on this site combined . Keith Craft is also the King of the Clevelands and held the NHRA record in his class with a 351 Cleveland he built . His engines have won over 50 National Championships

 

http://www.keithcraft.com/

.

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1.73 rockers for sure.

 

And since the engine will be mostly stock with the original carb and intake, and will have 10.2:1 compression (Stock is 10.7:1) and most likely will have stock exhaust manifolds, no more cam is really needed or advisable IMO.

 

I believe the cam manufacturer (Erson) recommends springs with each cam that they sell and pretty closely matches the rates given by Barnett.

 

Delving into rebuilding a 351C 4V engine has become quite the exercise. Characteristics of the engine and 4V heads in particular are a bit different than the B/RB Mopars that I am used to. And trying to understand those quirks of the 351C 4V has made this journey interesting and eventful.

 

I guess I am feeling an little pressure since I am helping a friend and don't want him to have something he is not happy with, or worse something that may fail..

 

And it will be much harder than this to get rid of me!::thumb::


1.6 ratio is Windsor not Cleveland - your cam is spec'd for 1.73's

 

That will be a very nicely behaved cam with your 4 speed. It will have a nice lumpy idle but will not be obnoxious.

 

We now all seem to be in agreement that you do not need to run "break in" springs on a cam with this lift - good - one less thing to worry about.

 

Any good aftermarket spring set will work - I would just get the set from whom ever made the cam as they are all about the same cost and quality.

 

Low RPM's while breaking in a Cleveland will kill the cam. If 3000 seems to high then back it off a bit - just be sure that you are over 2500.

 

Ford extracted a little more HP on the Cleveland by changing the throws on the crank - it cuts through the oil with less splash. Less splash means less oil getting up on the cam lobes and as such the cam runs a bit hotter at lower RPM. You do not want this when breaking in a cam shaft.

 

Glad you did not bail from the group - Several of us were worried that we had gotten off to a bad start with you.

 

- Paul of MO

 

The 2500-3000 RPM for break in is something that I have read in several places and have wondered why the cam card said to break in at 2000. I also have the book recommended everywhere about the 351C engine and will look up cam/lifter break in this evening.

 

Thanks for the input.

 

Jeff-


1.6 ratio is Windsor not Cleveland - your cam is spec'd for 1.73's

 

That will be a very nicely behaved cam with your 4 speed. It will have a nice lumpy idle but will not be obnoxious.

 

We now all seem to be in agreement that you do not need to run "break in" springs on a cam with this lift - good - one less thing to worry about.

 

Any good aftermarket spring set will work - I would just get the set from whom ever made the cam as they are all about the same cost and quality.

 

Low RPM's while breaking in a Cleveland will kill the cam. If 3000 seems to high then back it off a bit - just be sure that you are over 2500.

 

Ford extracted a little more HP on the Cleveland by changing the throws on the crank - it cuts through the oil with less splash. Less splash means less oil getting up on the cam lobes and as such the cam runs a bit hotter at lower RPM. You do not want this when breaking in a cam shaft.

 

Glad you did not bail from the group - Several of us were worried that we had gotten off to a bad start with you.

 

- Paul of MO

 

No problem Paul. Jeff works in Customer Service and I'm a Quality Engineer. Pretty much impossible to offend us.

 

Dave, I thought you weren't allowed to call yourself an engineer anymore ...... :whistling:

 

You'll have to take that up with management.

 

::thumb::

Tradition is the preservation of the flame, not the adoration of the ashes.

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Delving into rebuilding a 351C 4V engine has become quite the exercise. Characteristics of the engine and 4V heads in particular are a bit different than the B/RB Mopars that I am used to. And trying to understand those quirks of the 351C 4V has made this journey interesting and eventful.

 

One of the quirks with the Cleveland is the oiling system . Some people use cam oil restrictors and push rod oil restrictors if the hole in the lifter is a little large . Another thing that is done is the installation of lifter bore bushings . These correct loose lifter to lifter bore tolerances and reduce foaming of the oil caused by the band in the lifter beating the crap out of it due to the massive oil hole they use in the lifter bore.

 

As far as MOPARS go . I am a closet Mopar guy and have been since maybe 1967 . I am actually helping a friend out with a 400 we are going to stroke to 470 with a Source 440 crank and K1 rods and custom 4032 forged side relief pistons from Race Tech.

 

I am using the Eddy VICTOR heads with Ferrea hollow stem intake valves and Manley NexTek 1.3" springs and their lightweight tool steel retainers . I have to use .060" thick lash caps on the intakes to get the stem heights even and correct . I really don't know why people even mess with the Indy stuff since the VICTOR heads really are the best bang for the buck and the people at Indy seem to be a bit "uppity" on occasion.

 

Rockers are 1.7 T & D.

 

TTI makes 1 7/8 headers for this exact setup so no prob there.

 

It will either have a Howards off the shelf roller or a custom cam from Chris Straub.

 

Intake will either be an Eddy RPM or a VICTOR.

 

Carb will probably be some type of Quick Fuel.

 

Lifters will be Morels.

 

Push rods will tapered from TREND so the clearancing of the push rod hole in the heads will be kept to a minimal . It seems that in their infinite wisdom, Eddy failed to realize that the push rods on a Mopar are at an angle, lol . If the push rods were straight, 3/8" would clear.

 

Steel 2 bolt main caps with dowels.

 

ATI dual inertia ring damper.

 

Roll Master IWIS timing set.

 

We just got the block back from sonic testing and it is going to be thin on the right rear cylinder if it gets bored o center, so am going to have that entire bank offset bored .012" which will leave him enough for one more bore.

 

It will have around 550 real hp not these inflated hp numbers you sometimes see.

 

.

.

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Management cant ever get it right anyway :shootself:. Once an Engineer always an Engineer. Besides, someone else's jealousy is a real goofy reason for a response from management :shootself::shootself::shootself:!


Delving into rebuilding a 351C 4V engine has become quite the exercise. Characteristics of the engine and 4V heads in particular are a bit different than the B/RB Mopars that I am used to. And trying to understand those quirks of the 351C 4V has made this journey interesting and eventful.

 

One of the quirks with the Cleveland is the oiling system . Some people use cam oil restrictors and push rod oil restrictors if the hole in the lifter is a little large . Another thing that is done is the installation of lifter bore bushings . These correct loose lifter to lifter bore tolerances and reduce foaming of the oil caused by the band in the lifter beating the crap out of it due to the massive oil hole they use in the lifter bore.

 

As far as MOPARS go . I am a closet Mopar guy and have been since maybe 1967 . I am actually helping a friend out with a 400 we are going to stroke to 470 with a Source 440 crank and K1 rods and custom 4032 forged side relief pistons from Race Tech.

 

I am using the Eddy VICTOR heads with Ferrea hollow stem intake valves and Manley NexTek 1.3" springs and their lightweight tool steel retainers . I have to use .060" thick lash caps on the intakes to get the stem heights even and correct . I really don't know why people even mess with the Indy stuff since the VICTOR heads really are the best bang for the buck and the people at Indy seem to be a bit "uppity" on occasion.

 

Rockers are 1.7 T & D.

 

TTI makes 1 7/8 headers for this exact setup so no prob there.

 

It will either have a Howards off the shelf roller or a custom cam from Chris Straub.

 

Intake will either be an Eddy RPM or a VICTOR.

 

Carb will probably be some type of Quick Fuel.

 

Lifters will be Morels.

 

Pus rods will tapered from TREND so the clearancing of the push rod hole in the heads will be kept to a minimal . It seems that in their infinite wisdom, Eddy failed to realize that the push rods on a Mopar are at an angle, lol . If the push rods were straight, 3/8" would clear.

 

It will have around 550 real hp not these inflated hp numbers you sometimes see.

 

.

.

 

Sounds pretty stout. All of the good aftermarket heads weren't around when I used to build and tinker. I had to make do with the factory iron and try to make those things breathe. You could spend a fortune on machine work back in the day getting big block Mopar heads to move more air.

 

Have been away from building them for more years than I want to admit and never used the Victor heads. The INDY heads look real sweet, but so does their price!

 

And I think Edelbrock got a bad rep for just that reason. They build Chevy stuff and tried to apply it to Mopar and likely other OEM's and got stuff "tight" or just plain wrong, but live and learn.

 

If I ever do build another big block I will have to go INDY!!!

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