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351C 4V Valve and valvetrain replacement


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"One of the quirks with the Cleveland is the oiling system . Some people use cam oil restrictors and push rod oil restrictors if the hole in the lifter is a little large . Another thing that is done is the installation of lifter bore bushings . These correct loose lifter to lifter bore tolerances and reduce foaming of the oil caused by the band in the lifter beating the crap out of it due to the massive oil hole they use in the lifter bore."

 

What?

 

Clevelands have a "bass ackwards" oiling system and the all but the 1st rods / mains gets oil AFTER the cam and lifters. You do all of the various oiling mods to force more PSI to the crank and rods at high RPM. High RPM means over 7000 rpm. High RPM can force too much oil up the push rod and flood the valve cover while depleting the oil supply in the pan. Resistor push rods are the easiest fix for this if you are worried about it. Don't be worried about it.

 

The hole in the lifter galley is about the same as all small Fords - the problem is that there are only 2 galleys instead of the traditional 3.

 

More extensive oil system mods on a Cleveland are absolutely not needed except on full blown race engines.

 

Just did not want another source of concern to be created for people building a Cleveland. Rest assured your oil is not going to get foamed by your lifters.

 

- Paul of MO

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"One of the quirks with the Cleveland is the oiling system . Some people use cam oil restrictors and push rod oil restrictors if the hole in the lifter is a little large . Another thing that is done is the installation of lifter bore bushings . These correct loose lifter to lifter bore tolerances and reduce foaming of the oil caused by the band in the lifter beating the crap out of it due to the massive oil hole they use in the lifter bore."

 

What?

 

Clevelands have a "bass ackwards" oiling system and the all but the 1st rods / mains gets oil AFTER the cam and lifters. You do all of the various oiling mods to force more PSI to the crank and rods at high RPM. High RPM means over 7000 rpm. High RPM can force too much oil up the push rod and flood the valve cover while depleting the oil supply in the pan. Resistor push rods are the easiest fix for this if you are worried about it. Don't be worried about it.

 

The hole in the lifter galley is about the same as all small Fords - the problem is that there are only 2 galleys instead of the traditional 3.

 

More extensive oil system mods on a Cleveland are absolutely not needed except on full blown race engines.

 

Just did not want another source of concern to be created for people building a Cleveland. Rest assured your oil is not going to get foamed by your lifters.

 

- Paul of MO

Exactly..I did the larger diameter pushrods with a restricted oil hole..(which I mentioned in my first post) Piece of mind and plug and play with out the fuss or expense of other methods

LOVE OF BEAUTY IS TASTE..THE CREATION OF BEAUTY IS ART

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Mystic Fish, installing oil restrictors is one of the common practices that is done on Cleveland engines that will be run at high rpm for a sustained period of time . Installing these restrictors increases oil to the crank without causing an insufficient flow to the cam. This has been proven to be effective in countless engines, however, some people opt not to do this and instead install a restrictor elsewhere.

 

If you are installing cam bearings, you should install the front bearing to the factory depth which is .003" to .005" . One of the reasons for ths is that there is a huge hole in the front cam journal thst is not always completely blocked off by the bearing and the deeper the bearing is, the more of the hole is exposed . The more of the hole that is exposed, the more oil that freely leaks out, and since the Clevelands do have a weak are regarding oil to the mains, the less unnecessary freely leaking orifices there is the better.

 

Also, due to the design, the rods only get a shot of oil intermittently with every revolution of the crank, so to increase the duration of oil to the rods, you can install half grooved bearings . The groove goes in the top where the least amount of stress is.

 

This exposed oil hole is why ford only installs the fron bearing ,003" to .005" deep.

 

80-20151001_225628_6dac4d1126687be5a9524e8e22dfedb8cbaf1a68.jpg

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Exactly..I did the larger diameter pushrods with a restricted oil hole..(which I mentioned in my first post) Piece of mind and plug and play with out the fuss or expense of other methods

 

Restricting oil to the cam bearings is free if you are rebuilding an engine . All you need to do is buy oil restrictor bearings . Tim Meyer is one of the authorities on this series of engines and he sells them.

 

"Today, there is a better alternative to the old restrictor plugs. Tim Meyer offers special cam bearings with the oil-restrictor holes built into the bearing (PN F26 fits Cleveland)."

 

http://www.tmeyerinc.com/

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If the engine is only to be a mild build and not see the high side of 6500 rpm's. Just build it with traditional good quality bearings and pay attention to the camshaft thrust clearance.

Mike

__________________________________

Black 1985 GT

Yellow 1973 Mustang Mach 1

Black 2012 5.0 GT, 6-speed, Brembo brakes, 3.73's

Wimbledon White 1966 F-100 Shortbed Styleside, 390ci, Tremec 3550, FiTech EFI

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Mystic Fish, installing oil restrictors is one of the common practices that is done on Cleveland engines that will be run at high rpm for a sustained period of time . Installing these restrictors increases oil to the crank without causing an insufficient flow to the cam. This has been proven to be effective in countless engines, however, some people opt not to do this and instead install a restrictor elsewhere.

 

If you are installing cam bearings, you should install the front bearing to the factory depth which is .003" to .005" . One of the reasons for ths is that there is a huge hole in the front cam journal thst is not always completely blocked off by the bearing and the deeper the bearing is, the more of the hole is exposed . The more of the hole that is exposed, the more oil that freely leaks out, and since the Clevelands do have a weak are regarding oil to the mains, the less unnecessary freely leaking orifices there is the better.

 

Also, due to the design, the rods only get a shot of oil intermittently with every revolution of the crank, so to increase the duration of oil to the rods, you can install half grooved bearings . The groove goes in the top where the least amount of stress is.

 

This exposed oil hole is why ford only installs the fron bearing ,003" to .005" deep.

 

80-20151001_225628_6dac4d1126687be5a9524e8e22dfedb8cbaf1a68.jpg

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Exactly..I did the larger diameter pushrods with a restricted oil hole..(which I mentioned in my first post) Piece of mind and plug and play with out the fuss or expense of other methods

 

Restricting oil to the cam bearings is free if you are rebuilding an engine . All you need to do is buy oil restrictor bearings . Tim Meyer is one of the authorities on this series of engines and he sells them.

 

"Today, there is a better alternative to the old restrictor plugs. Tim Meyer offers special cam bearings with the oil-restrictor holes built into the bearing (PN F26 fits Cleveland)."

 

http://www.tmeyerinc.com/

 

Is the .003 - .005 clearance measured from the block face to the front edge of the cam bearing? I have not heard about this before. It looks like the clearance in the picture is much more than .005. I assume that this is an attempt to nearly block off the hole. Is this correct?

 

Also, the motor will not likely see 6,000 rpm, so 7,000 rpm is not going to happen either.

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Mystic Fish, installing oil restrictors is one of the common practices that is done on Cleveland engines that will be run at high rpm for a sustained period of time . Installing these restrictors increases oil to the crank without causing an insufficient flow to the cam. This has been proven to be effective in countless engines, however, some people opt not to do this and instead install a restrictor elsewhere.

 

If you are installing cam bearings, you should install the front bearing to the factory depth which is .003" to .005" . One of the reasons for this is that there is a huge hole in the front cam journal that is not always completely blocked off by the bearing and the deeper the bearing is, the more of the hole is exposed . The more of the hole that is exposed, the more oil that freely leaks out, and since the Clevelands do have a weak are regarding oil to the mains, the less unnecessary freely leaking orifices there is the better.

 

Also, due to the design, the rods only get a shot of oil intermittently with every revolution of the crank, so to increase the duration of oil to the rods, you can install half grooved bearings . The groove goes in the top where the least amount of stress is.

 

This exposed oil hole is why ford only installs the fron bearing ,003" to .005" deep.

 

80-20151001_225628_6dac4d1126687be5a9524e8e22dfedb8cbaf1a68.jpg

.

 


.

.

Exactly..I did the larger diameter pushrods with a restricted oil hole..(which I mentioned in my first post) Piece of mind and plug and play with out the fuss or expense of other methods

 

Restricting oil to the cam bearings is free if you are rebuilding an engine . All you need to do is buy oil restrictor bearings . Tim Meyer is one of the authorities on this series of engines and he sells them.

 

"Today, there is a better alternative to the old restrictor plugs. Tim Meyer offers special cam bearings with the oil-restrictor holes built into the bearing (PN F26 fits Cleveland)."

 

http://www.tmeyerinc.com/

 

Is the .003 - .005 clearance measured from the block face to the front edge of the cam bearing?

 

I have not heard about this before.

 

It looks like the clearance in the picture is much more than .005. I assume that this is an attempt to nearly block off the hole. Is this correct?

 

Also, the motor will not likely see 6,000 rpm, so 7,000 rpm is not going to happen either.

 

1. Yes it is and my guess is that it is around .150" which is .140" too much . That photo is from an engine that ate the cam bearings.

 

2. That's because you are a MOPAR guy, lol . Since you mentioned that you are unfamiliar with some of the nuances of the Cleveland of which this is one, I will make some suggestions for you for your build . My guess is that others will also.

 

3. Yes that bearing is in WAY more than .005" which is why the hole is exposed . The distance from the front of the block to the front of the the hole in the photo is around .010" . If the bearing was installed .005" deep, it would still block the hole / The bearing has a slight chamfer on it so the edge of the chamfer might be around .002" from the edge of the hole at that point.

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Are there any other little nuggets like this I need to know before putting the bottom end together?

 

Well I would do the following but others may not.

 

BEARINGS

 

Use Clevite 1/2 groove bearings . They also come moly coated.

 

 

CONNECTING RODS

 

If you are going to resize them, I would consider installing ARP nuts or ARP nuts and bolts or at least new nuts . It's probably a bit of overkill for your app but it's a cheap upgrade and additional insurance.

 

 

OIL PUMP

 

Stock volume MELLINGS but I would consider installing a 60 psi spring . Also, completely disassemble it and clean it and make sure the bypass valve goes perfectly smoothly through the bore . If you even think it might be the slightest bit sticky, run a small ball hone in the bore with some WD40 for a few seconds then clean it and try it again There have been a couple reports of this valve sticking recently.

 

 

OIL PUMP DRIVE

 

An ARP one is maybe $22.00 so why even risk using a stock one . Make sure you test fit the distributor before you put the pan and timing cover on . You may need to move the clip on the drive down a little bit . Once the distributor is in, make sure the oil pump drive goes up and down a hair to insure it isn't binding..

 

 

MAIN AND ROD BEARING CLEARANCE

 

I typically use around .0022".

 

 

CAM GEAR

 

If I even think the teeth are sharp or i can see machining marks on the face of the teeth, I tape the journal and adjacent lobe and "burnish" it with a soft wire wheel.

 

 

DISTRIBUTOR GEAR

 

I often use CRANE's but don't burnish it.

 

 

CAMSHAFT END PLAY

 

Check it to make sure it is not excessive . I prefer them a hair towards the tight side.

 

 

DISTRIBUTOR AND CAM GEAR MESH

 

Check it to insure it's correct.

 

 

FRONT LIFTER OIL GALLEY PLUGS

 

I drill around a .016" hole in them to increase the oil to the distributor gear and timing chain and cam thrust plate. They must be removed to do this.

 

 

LIFTER GALLEY PLUGS Disregard the yellow circle.

 

351M_noridge.jpg

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The picture of the cam bearing that was posted is a 400M not a 351C - I can tell by the casting line. And yes it is set to deep into the block.

 

Here is a better picture showing how close to thrust face of the block the front cam bearing is in a 351C.

 

28h1ly1.jpg

 

Now in real life will this cause a problem? Not really. As long as all of the flat area in the block is covered by the bearing then you are good. If the bearing is farther back into the block exposing some of the flat area then yes - more of that oil passage would be exposed and that would not be good.

 

For our engineers (even the ones in denial) - if the bearing protruded farther forward and stuck out over the bevel (like in my picture) would more of that oil hole actually be covered or would it just be shrouded a little bit?

 

I think Ford just wanted to make sure you had it in far enough not to interfere with the thrust plate so they gave a specification to accomplish this goal.

 

The only real important thing is to have the bearing lined up with the oil passages for the mains and for the rockers. To shallow or to deep or clocked wrong and life will not be good.

 

As far as cam bearings go they typically can last though 3 or 4 or 10 full life spans of an engine. If there is no signs of damage or wear I typically did not replace them.

 

351C cam bearings are honed after they are installed and replacements are most often to tight. Again not a big deal - things will clearance themselves most of the time.

 

I had a used cam that we cut a deep grove in the bearing journals then we would coat them with a very fine cutting compound then spin it with a drill to clearance the new bearings. Seemed to work OK. The new cams went from being almost impossible to turn by hand to spinning like they had been buttered.

 

I have built and run many 351C's that the cam started off tight without any problems. We only used the tool for the ones that were really stiff.

 

Like I say the most important thing is to have fun!

 

(Do not drill a hole in your galley plug - it will cause a leak)

 

(The photo of the galley plug is a 351M not a 351C not that it matters)

 

- Paul of MO

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If the engine is only to be a mild build and not see the high side of 6500 rpm's. Just build it with traditional good quality bearings and pay attention to the camshaft thrust clearance.

 

Thumbs up on this suggestion. You do not need funky grooved bearings for your Cleveland.

 

Distributor gear problems? - I never had any but there seems to be some buzz on the internet about it in the past few years. Don't really know why.

 

Get Tom Monroe' book and do what it says.

 

Paul of MO

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Distributor gear problems? - I never had any but there seems to be some buzz on the internet about it in the past few years. Don't really know why.

 

Comp had a bunch of cams with poorly finished gears and they in turn killed a lot of distributor gears, but there has been other probs as well.

 

I am currently helping a friend of mine in Australia to fix his $18,000.00 aud Dart Windsor engine . The idiot builder didn't check the cam gear and the pad on the block was not machined deep enough so when they tightened the clamp on the MSD PRO BILLET distributor, it put a bind on the distributor making it hard to turn . It had a bronze gear and that wore the pad on the block down by maybe .010" before it lost all its teeth.

 

This also drove the cam rearward so hard as it was turning that it ground a .050 deep groove in the front of the thrust plate.

 

He actually got the Howards billet solid roller cam from the US a couple hours ago that I ordered for him.

 

Burnishing the cam gear and adding the holes in the galley plug is simply free insurance against this happening, even though it's fairly rare these days.

 

MSD also uses a custom size distributor shaft that is just .001" larger than stock so you have to either buy their gears or get the Crane or other mfg's gears reamed out to fit it.

 

The bronze gear they use is the best one available but the CRANE steel gear is better than their gear and since you can;t burnish them because they are melonite, I prefer to use the CRANE . It was discontinued for a while as they changed hands but they started making it again and it still has a nice finish on it but it is a slightly different color so the finish process must have changed somewhat.

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So distributor gear failure is rare these days - sounds like we do not worry about it then.

 

Install the distributor and make sure it is centered with the cam and not bottomed out. Sounds easy enough.

 

Do not drill a hole in your galley plug - it will cause a leak.

 

Good luck with that Ausie engine - Theo at Pavtek could not help them?

 

- Paul of MO

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hes not anywhere near pavtek plus hes paranoid to have anyone work on it now plus he wants to leaarn how to work on engines m. he has never even removed a distributor before but ii told him how to take it apart so the cam is out now and he will have the rest of the parts today and start reassembly today i had him get the double bearing timing set also plus a new distributor with a standard size shaft because they also ground the crap out of the end of the shaft and the body to get it in . . the engine was built by a prominent engine builder too . my guess is that the builder gave the distributor install to a trainee.


even though gear failure is less common these days it still exists and i dont ever want to have one so i preferr to go the extra mile and do the little things i mentioned since they can only help especially making a leak in the galley plugs because in this case a leak is good lol . the size of each hole maybe the equivalent of the clearance between two lifters and the bore or the size of one edm hole in the bottom of a lifter so it is insifinicant in the big scheme of things . unfortunately its just not like the old days where you could just throw the parts in and never have a ggearr prob so in this regard it seems like technology has taken a sttep backwards but who knows . roller cams werent ubiquitous back then either

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Will you be installing your own cam bearings?

 

I was going to have the machine shop install the cam bearings. Looks like we may need to make sure that they are not installed too far.

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Will you be installing your own cam bearings?

 

I was going to have the machine shop install the cam bearings. Looks like we may need to make sure that they are not installed too far.

 

the front one is the only one you need to worry about .

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Ok, so we didn't get to the machine shop quick enough to make sure that the front cam bearing was installed to the correct clearance.

image.jpeg.9e38d3d59a0039b5fb9a1719ed12a712.jpeg

 

When asked, the machinist said that "there is a groove in the block and that's where it goes". It is my belief that he is just aggravated at us and didn't want to deal with it,but maybe it is what he believes.

 

I also already have the book by Tom Monroe, but had not got to chapter 7 where it addresses the cam bearing. I actually had looked through all of the illustrations but assumed that the machine shop would know this little tidbit.

 

 

There is also some text in the book addressing the bearing clearance.

 

image.thumb.jpg.8f3a3209afff4a128e6e9896d8ae42e6.jpg

The book does mention that the clearance should be .005 - .020 which is a little different than the .003 - .005 mentioned earlier in the post.

Just curious why the book has a different spec than what is advised earlier in the forum.

Is the .003 - .005 clearance specific to higher performance engines?

 

Second question is regarding how to correct the clearance. I have always relied on machine shops to install cam bearings and have never installed them myself. I want to tell the machinist to set it at my desired spec, but I believe he is ready to tell us to pick up our parts... This may be an exaggeration on my part,but I want to rectify the problem the easiest way possible.

 

Is there a way for me to correct the bearing myself or will I need to buy new bearings and have the machinist replace it properly?

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The shop could very easily correct the issue bit it would require a new cam bearing galley plug at the rear of the engine. They could try and do the job from the front but it would not guarantee a straight bearing installation.

 

If you are not building a high revving engine I honestly wouldn't lose any sleep over it. Just ensure that the camahaft thrust clearance is within spec and you'll be fine. So many of these engines were reassembled in this manner over the decades without issue is the reason that this specification is rather difficult to track down and is little known.

 

One of the other major no-no's in these engines is running a high volume oil pump. They put excess strain on the distributor gear and distributor gear roll pin and almost always cause excessive wear in those areas or breakage. They are just not needed with properly spec'd bearing clearances.

 

Another unneeded modification is drilling a hole in the oil galley plug for distributor gear oiling. The very hole that is being covered by that bearing is going directly to the base of the distributor gear. The gears already get plenty of oil.

Mike

__________________________________

Black 1985 GT

Yellow 1973 Mustang Mach 1

Black 2012 5.0 GT, 6-speed, Brembo brakes, 3.73's

Wimbledon White 1966 F-100 Shortbed Styleside, 390ci, Tremec 3550, FiTech EFI

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The shop could very easily correct the issue bit it would require a new cam bearing galley plug at the rear of the engine. They could try and do the job from the front but it would not guarantee a straight bearing installation.

 

If you are not building a high revving engine I honestly wouldn't lose any sleep over it. Just ensure that the camahaft thrust clearance is within spec and you'll be fine. So many of these engines were reassembled in this manner over the decades without issue is the reason that this specification is rather difficult to track down and is little known.

 

One of the other major no-no's in these engines is running a high volume oil pump. They put excess strain on the distributor gear and distributor gear roll pin and almost always cause excessive wear in those areas or breakage. They are just not needed with properly spec'd bearing clearances.

 

Another unneeded modification is drilling a hole in the oil galley plug for distributor gear oiling. The very hole that is being covered by that bearing is going directly to the base of the distributor gear. The gears already get plenty of oil.

 

Thanks, I was hoping for a simple solution.

 

By the way, how do I get an Air Force insignia to the side like you have. I served from 1980 until 1987. Worked in F-4E's and F-111F models in California and England.

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By the way, how do I get an Air Force insignia to the side like you have. I served from 1980 until 1987. Worked in F-4E's and F-111F models in California and England.

 

Been a while since I got mine. I'd just PM a moderator or admin and ask them nicely. I'm sure they'll hook you up.

Mike

__________________________________

Black 1985 GT

Yellow 1973 Mustang Mach 1

Black 2012 5.0 GT, 6-speed, Brembo brakes, 3.73's

Wimbledon White 1966 F-100 Shortbed Styleside, 390ci, Tremec 3550, FiTech EFI

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Looking at your pic they have the passage underneath the bearing more than half closed off. I would not expect it to cause any issues but it is just a bit to far back for my comfort.

 

Cam bearings are cheap - they did it wrong - have them redo it.

 

They need to worry about getting the passages under the cam bearing centered in the grove more than being concerned about the exact clearance behind the thrust plate. This is the reason for such a wide window for the official specification.

 

If they knife edged the leading edge of the cam bearing to make it install smoother then they will have a problem knocking it back out just a hair.

 

If it were me I would just replace it. 20 minutes and 20 dollars. Not a big deal.

 

If they bitch then offer to pay for the part - not exactly fair but for 20 bucks the lack of worry would definitely be worth it.

 

Also -

 

Yes on the standard pressure oil pump and it does not need to "modified" for higher pressure.

 

Do not drill a hole in your galley plug - it will cause a leak

 

- Paul of Mo

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Looking at your pic they have the passage underneath the bearing more than half closed off. I would not expect it to cause any issues but it is just a bit to far back for my comfort.

 

Cam bearings are cheap - they did it wrong - have them redo it.

 

They need to worry about getting the passages under the cam bearing centered in the grove more than being concerned about the exact clearance behind the thrust plate. This is the reason for such a wide window for the official specification.

 

If they knife edged the leading edge of the cam bearing to make it install smoother then they will have a problem knocking it back out just a hair.

 

If it were me I would just replace it. 20 minutes and 20 dollars. Not a big deal.

 

If they bitch then offer to pay for the part - not exactly fair but for 20 bucks the lack of worry would definitely be worth it.

 

Also -

 

Yes on the standard pressure oil pump and it does not need to "modified" for higher pressure.

 

Do not drill a hole in your galley plug - it will cause a leak

 

- Paul of Mo

 

Thanks Paul, I think that we are going to leave it as is to keep from pissing off the machine shop.

 

We already had to return the wrong pistons and the wrong camshaft to his supplier. And since he is a well respected local (and older guy) machinist I would rather just leave it alone. The rebuild is basically stock anyway with original intake & exhaust manifolds and carb.

 

And we also have no intention of drilling any oil passages...

 

Jeff-

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Looking at your pic they have the passage underneath the bearing more than half closed off. I would not expect it to cause any issues but it is just a bit to far back for my comfort.

 

Cam bearings are cheap - they did it wrong - have them redo it.

 

They need to worry about getting the passages under the cam bearing centered in the grove more than being concerned about the exact clearance behind the thrust plate. This is the reason for such a wide window for the official specification.

 

If they knife edged the leading edge of the cam bearing to make it install smoother then they will have a problem knocking it back out just a hair.

 

If it were me I would just replace it. 20 minutes and 20 dollars. Not a big deal.

 

If they bitch then offer to pay for the part - not exactly fair but for 20 bucks the lack of worry would definitely be worth it.

 

Also -

 

Yes on the standard pressure oil pump and it does not need to "modified" for higher pressure.

 

Do not drill a hole in your galley plug - it will cause a leak

 

- Paul of Mo

 

Thanks Paul, I think that we are going to leave it as is to keep from pissing off the machine shop.

 

We already had to return the wrong pistons and the wrong camshaft to his supplier. And since he is a well respected local (and older guy) machinist I would rather just leave it alone. The rebuild is basically stock anyway with original intake & exhaust manifolds and carb.

 

And we also have no intention of drilling any oil passages...

 

Jeff-

 

Jeff,

 

Not a problem. I am certain that you will not have any long term issues. In later years I would grab a cheap 351C engine here and there just to have some on hand.

 

I would bet nearly all that had been opened up at sometime in their lives had the front cam bearing in to deep like yours is.

 

Have fun putting everything together!

 

- Paul of MO

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