Jump to content

Harmonic Damper Replacement


Recommended Posts

I have been working on getting my '71 351 H code tuned this "spring."

 

I have replaced the old 600cfm Edelbrock with a new 1806 650CFM Edelbrock Thunder series. Runs very well, expect for bogging when punching it to WOT. Before I dig into that, I want to make sure that everything else is running right. I have replaced the points with a Pertronix Ignitor I, and have been working my way through the ignition system. Here is where the problem occurred...

 

I tried timing the car for the first time since buying it in August, it has been running very well so I never did it previously. I was not able to see any of the timing marks with the light hooked to cylinder #1. I crawled underneath and cleaned the marks on the original balancer, so they should be nice and visible. I tried again, and still nothing. For poops and giggles, I stuck the induction pickup from the timing gun on the #4 spark plug wire, and suddenly could see the marks. I am fairly certain my damper has slipped.

 

I purchased a new Powerbond 1082ST damper. I took the step up to the ST for the very nice laser marked timing marks. The thing is a work of art, almost a shame to put on the engine. I also got a new ARP damper bolt.

 

I plan on digging in tonight. I have replaced dampers before, but never when the engine was in the car. This is the best thread that I have found so far, and plan on following many of the tips: http://www.7173mustangs.com/thread-harmonic-balancer--23212 . I especially like the home made bar to bolt to the balancer to keep the engine from spinning, that was one of my concerns.

 

As far a removing the balancer bolt, I will probably use my impact gun. I should be able to borrow a puller from my dad. To put the new balancer on I plan on borrowing a balancer installation tool from Autozone. I hope to put the bolt back in place with my torque wrench.

 

Tonight, I hope to just get everything apart to get easy access to the balancer. I plan on pulling the radiator, to get more room. I have an FMX automatic, so I will need to disconnect the cooler lines as well. Any tips or tricks on those? I really don't want to mess those up. I will probably use a set of line wrenches, to make sure I don't round off the nuts.

 

Does anyone have any recommendations for getting the new damper to fit? I have heard some people say bake it, other say boil it, both to increase the ID and get and easier fit. The last damper I put I on I used an emery cloth on the crank snout just a bit, and got it to fit very well. That was on a Datsun straight six though, so a little different beast.

 

I guess I don't have too many questions in general, just looking too see if anyone wants to chime in with a tips or tricks that I have not come across yet. Anything tricky to removing the radiator that I may not realize? Is there a certain method that works well for removing the fan shroud? I assume it should come off before the fan, I am not sure if it is two pieces, that would be nice.

 

I plan on taking a bunch of pictures as I work, so hopefully I will be able to come back to this thread when I am done and post pictures for people looking to do this in the future.

1971 Mach 1, Grabber Blue with 5W Deluxe White Interior, 351C H code with Edelbrock 4 barrel

Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • Replies 25
  • Created
  • Last Reply

Top Posters In This Topic

The Ford manual says to pull the vibration dampener without pulling radiator, up to you. When you take the hoses off the radiator take your time and don't just try to twist them loose. If they are old hoses just split the end and peel them off. I use a little anti-seize on the connection to prevent sticking. They seal fine and the rib on the tube prevents the 15 lbs. of pressure from blowing it off.

The shroud has bolts on top and slips into slots in the bottom. Take the radiator off first then the shroud will come out past the fan. If you leave radiator in you have to pull the 4 bolts out of the fan and extension off to get it out. Of course all the belts have to come off. If radiator is in taking the top clamps off and letting it move forward will give a little more room to get the fan bolts out. You have to take the fan and spacer off the end of the water pump. Not enough room to pull the bolts out they will hit radiator. So fan, bolts and spacer come out together. The pulley then comes off the end of the water pump. This can be a pain to get all aligned with radiator in.

Unbolt the pulley from the dampener then the center bolt in the crank.

Like you say you will need the puller. I would think since the engine is in the car having the trans. in park should prevent the crank from turning especially if you use impact to remove. For sure you want to torque when going back on. Check the woodruff key for any damage in the crank.

I would clean the crank snout with fine emory cloth or steel wool. Yes warming up the dampener will help it go on but not too hot or you will ruin the rubber or urethane. Little bit of oil on the crank and the outside of dampener to protect seal and you might change the seal while that deep into the thing. Look for oil leaks. There is a special tool from getting the seal out that clamps from the outside and pulls the seal out. Check with you parts house if they have one. This prevents any damage to the cover.

There is also a special tool to push the dampener back on with the limited space you cannot get soft hammer in there and do much.

I would check your water pump and feel the bearing and see if there is any signs of leaks. Good time to change if there are any issues.

On the Cleveland make sure you have the correct thermostat with the little hat on the end that goes into the engine. It changes the circulation of water in the block and is very important to have correct one. There are threads on the Forum about them.

Sometimes these simple jobs can grow. When was the last timing chain and gears installed?

Just follow the instructions in any good manual or find them online and it will be a simple fix. You might put some white paint on the pointer for timing to see easier.

Just go slow and post some pictures and how it goes.

I am not a mechanic just have always done my own work. It is all bolts and nuts and hard parts no black magic in an engine. If something not going right ask questions, get a manual or go online and download info.

David

  • Like 1

When a man is in the woods and talks and no women are there is he still wrong??:P

David

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Thanks! That is exactly the type of advice I was looking for!

 

I will see what I can do tonight without removing the radiator, that would be great if I don't need to. I may drop a thin piece of plywood in front of it to keep my hands from getting destroyed and to prevent me putting any tools through it.

 

I am not sure on the timing gears or chain, I imagine they are original. The car only has 66,000 miles on it and is mostly original under the hood. I plan to pull the engine in a year or so for a set of Edelbrock heads and cam, just waiting to finish another project to get the winter garage space. I will probably wait to tackle those until then. I will check the water pump, hopefully it is okay. I am hoping to get in and out without spending too much more $$. I know how much these projects can grow, heck, this started as a carb tuning project!

1971 Mach 1, Grabber Blue with 5W Deluxe White Interior, 351C H code with Edelbrock 4 barrel

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I prefer the boil vs the baking to warm the dampener. It seems to provide the heat in a more even fashion and prevents hot spots that could damage the rubber. When pulling the dampener, even with a tool, you have to be careful to not bugger up the threads in the crank. I simply back off the bolt a bit and work against the bolt, and when the dampener has pulled up to the bolt I take it apart and back the bolt off some more and repeat until I have the old one free.

 

Dampeners should be an interference fit. Sanding should be limited to removing flaws such as minor rust or light damage.

http://www.7173mustangs.com/gallery/1_01_07_15_8_53_18.png

 

"I love my Hookers!" and "Get some Strange" probably have a different connotation to non automotive enthusiasts!

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Good idea on using the bolt as the stationary base for the puller Jeff! Any sanding that is done to the crank will be to clean it up, material removal is not the goal.

1971 Mach 1, Grabber Blue with 5W Deluxe White Interior, 351C H code with Edelbrock 4 barrel

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I did not have good experiences with a repacement damper. During engine overhaul I changed the original for a Pioneer 872027 bought from summit with a 28oz imbalance. After reassembly and startup of the renovated Cleveland it ran with a vibration. After replacing the Pioneer again with the old OEM part the vibration was gone.

 

So I think that not every damper that fits on a Cleveland and is advertised for it by the manufacturer oes really run good.

 

Did anyone have the same experience after replacing the old balancer?

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Hmmm... I will have to eyeball the counterbalance, to make sure it is in the same location relative to the keyway.

 

I planned on comparing them anyway, to see how far the outer ring had slipped.

1971 Mach 1, Grabber Blue with 5W Deluxe White Interior, 351C H code with Edelbrock 4 barrel

Link to comment
Share on other sites

For balancers I would only use a Romac or BHJ Dynamics. They both make dampeners specific to the Cleveland engine. Not many have heard of BHJ but they are one of the best if not the best in the industry. Check them out and give them a call.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Most of the recommendations I saw were for Romac and PowerBond. Never heard of BHJ. I already installed the PB Balancer, so it is a little late now, but I will keep that in mind for the future.

 

I am trying to upload my pictures to my Google drive now. I hope to add a post soon about my installation.


So, I got the old damper out and the new damper in. It went significantly better than expected. I did not have to remove the radiator, there was more than enough room to work with it in place. Getting down to the old damper took only about 20 minutes. Everything came apart very easily, never even broke out the penetrating fluid.

 

Getting the damper off was no real problem. I used the homemade crank lock seen in my pictures and the linked thread above. That worked like a charm. Once I got the bolt out, I used a pulley puller to remove the damper, came right off.

 

The old damper was bad... very bad. The outer ring had slipped almost 180 degrees, and was out of alignment by about an inch. It had actually worked itself back into the timing cover, leaving a mark there.

 

The new damper by comparison looks great. The timing marks are easy to see, and it looks real slick in fresh black.

 

The crank looked fine, as did the woodruff key.

 

Getting the new damper on was fairly simple as well. I tried to use the Autozone loaner installation tool, but could not figure it out. Instead, I just used the old bolt to press the damper in place, again locking the crank with the homemade tool. I used some black RTV in the keyway, to help seal that. Once the damper was seated I removed the old bolt. I put in an new ARP bolt and washer, using the supplied lube and torquing to 120 ft/lb per their instructions.

 

I loosely reinstalled the pulleys and belts, to make sure everything lined up. It all looks good. I am going to take the pulley back off to clean it. I hope to get it all buttoned up on Saturday.

 

Here are all the pictures: http://imgur.com/a/bE7cB

1971 Mach 1, Grabber Blue with 5W Deluxe White Interior, 351C H code with Edelbrock 4 barrel

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I used some black RTV in the keyway

 

Glad you mentioned that. One of my pet peeves. So many people do not and after a short while it can create a mess. After a few years it makes a pretty big mess.

 

FWIW, I installed a Streetdamper on my engine years ago when the original came apart. I wanted one that was one piece, would never fatigue, weather or fail. About 15 years old now and looks as good as the day I bought it.

 

In the end any decent quality aftermarket unit should suit you well. The Chinese stuff can be a gamble so scrutinize wisely before spending the money. Check some reviews and see what you think.

Mike

__________________________________

Black 1985 GT

Yellow 1973 Mustang Mach 1

Black 2012 5.0 GT, 6-speed, Brembo brakes, 3.73's

Wimbledon White 1966 F-100 Shortbed Styleside, 390ci, Tremec 3550, FiTech EFI

Link to comment
Share on other sites

So I got everything buttoned back up last night. I would like to say that it has been smooth sailing since... but of course it has not.

 

Re-assembly wasn't bad, a little tricky to line up the whole fan assembly and tighten with the radiator and shroud in place, but not too bad. The issues came after.

 

I warmed the car up for about 10 minutes in my driveway, disconnected the vacuum advance, plugged the line, and checked the timing.

 

It is kind of difficult to see all the way down in there, but one I got a good angle I could see that it was showing about 30 degrees before tdc initial timing. This does not seem correct, as the car has been running very well. No sign of pinging. I believe everything is stock engine wise, so no crazy cam to account for.

 

I tried adjusting the dizzy, to see what would happen. Nothing, as in I couldn't turn the thing. It seems to be seized in place.

 

So, still two issues:

 

1. Is my timing really 30 btdc, or is my new damper not correct on the timing marks, or am I moron and can't figure our how to read initial timing? I think all three are equally plausible at the moment. I honestly would take the new damper back off to compare timing marks, but I cannot do that since my old damper spun so badly. I may have to get a piston stop and determine TDC like that, and compare to the new damper.

 

2. Get the distributor unstuck WITHOUT breaking anything. And yes, I did loosen the hold down. Nearly took it off.

1971 Mach 1, Grabber Blue with 5W Deluxe White Interior, 351C H code with Edelbrock 4 barrel

Link to comment
Share on other sites

That engine looks like a pretty unaltered example. Is that bottom radiator hose original or a repo? I see the stapled Ford style clamp. The brackets for air conditioner are still phosphate and not rattle canned.

On the timing. Are you sure you have the #1 plug wire Right Front Cylinder, passenger side? I do not think it would run very good if it were off that bad.

It would suck if the dampener were wrong and I would never do business with them again if it is.

I just put MSD in my car yesterday and yes the distributor will stick. Soak it several days and use a strap wrench to work it. Be careful they will break I broke one in a 429 and was not being rough with it, that sucked.

Put some rotating force on it and tap with hard faced soft hammer. It might take some time to let is soak.

The timing mark is really difficult to see for sure lots of belts and stuff in the way.

David

When a man is in the woods and talks and no women are there is he still wrong??:P

David

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I am 99% certain that I have the pickup on the correct wire. The engine is pretty much as it left the factory, which is good and bad. I imagine the hoses are reproduction, it does have a new aluminum radiator that the PO installed.

 

I am actually in the process of removing the AC compressor, attempting to get more room to work on the distrubutor. To do that, I have had to remove the fan and all the pulleys again. I am at the point where I would pull the damper to check the timing marks if I had anything to compare to.

 

Does anyone know there TDC should be in relation to the keyway?? I could get a protractor on mine and see where it is. If it is incorrect I could probably work with Summit for a refund. I hope it isn't though, the damper is very nice.


I found intructions for a Ford racing Windsor damper that mentions the keyway should be at 12 o'clock when the engine is at TDC... any idea if that is true for Clevelands as well? Based on the pictures that I took, the keyway looks to be aligned with the first pulley bolt hole past 50 degrees before tdc. I may turn the crank so that lines up to the top of the engine, and see where the timing pointer is.

1971 Mach 1, Grabber Blue with 5W Deluxe White Interior, 351C H code with Edelbrock 4 barrel

Link to comment
Share on other sites

So, I pulled the new damper to check the timing marks. I confirmed with a mechanic buddy that the keyway at 12 o'clock should correspond to TDC.

 

I pulled the new damper and compared it to the old one. I wanted to make sure that the couter weights were in the same spot. Since those are attached to the inner ring, it would not have slipped with the outer ring. The weights did appear to line up, so that was a relief.

 

I then marked the keyway location on the outer ring using some white out.

 

Installation time again. I got the new damper re-installed and turned it so that the keyway mark was at 12 o'clock. This showed that the timing mark was pretty much dead on at TDC.

 

So, it looks like the damper is correct for the engine. I also compared the rotor location with the damper at TDC, it looks like it would be right around cylinder #1... but it it hard to tell. I would love to get a clear mock distributor cap with timing marks on it. That way I could verify that the rotor is hitting at the right spot. Heck, you could probably get close to setting initial timing with the engine off, if it is at TDC, with something like that!

 

I am going to put everything back together and check to see if I get any different results. I am thinking at this point that I am doing something pants-on-head stupid when checking the timing or my light is bad.

 

My mechanic buddy is going to help me get the dizzy unstuck at his shop, so at least I don't have to worry about that at the moment.

 

More pictures here: http://imgur.com/a/6eS4k

1971 Mach 1, Grabber Blue with 5W Deluxe White Interior, 351C H code with Edelbrock 4 barrel

Link to comment
Share on other sites

One last update for now. I put the car back together again, and with my dad's help re-checked the timing. I made sure that we drove a good bit, got the car nice an fully warmed up, choke fully open. We then checked the timing, pulling the car into my garage so we could see a little better.

 

I pulled the vacuum advance as normal, but this time I also decided to check the idle. It was idling a little high, closer to 1000 rpm. I got the idle as low as I could get it, around 550 rpm. This time, the timing showed a more believable, but still high ~22 degrees btdc. I had my dad rev it up, over the 2000 RPM that my underhood tach will read to. It seemed like the maximum advance (mechanical only) was just shy of 40 degrees btdc. I checked the timing at around 850 rpm, it was right about the 30 degrees btdc that I saw previously, and likely where I was checking it before.

 

I took the car for another drive, and everything seems good. It still bogs if I floor it suddenly, but that will be figured out later. For now, I think I am getting the correct timing reading (~22 btdc), which is closer to target but still high. I am going to work with my buddy to get the dizzy free, to see if I can dial out any of the a bit more. I have seen that total advance, minus vacuum, should be set to 34-36, so I may only need to bump it back a couple degrees or so. The engine runs VERY smoothly, my dad said it is quite smoother than the 351 4bbl in his '70 Mach 1. It isn't pinging or having any other issues.

 

I set the idle for 700 rpm and double checked my vacuum and set the idle mixture screws. The screws were just about perfect where I had them the last time I set them and vacuum was rock steady at 20 inches of mercury. I am not going to lose any sleep over the timing for now, as it doesn't seem to be causing any issues.

1971 Mach 1, Grabber Blue with 5W Deluxe White Interior, 351C H code with Edelbrock 4 barrel

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Something is reading wrong. In my experience with cleveland engines, if your initial timing is past 18 deg, you will have trouble starting and you'll experience some ping under a load. The fact that you have it starting and running smoothly indicates you are pretty close to ideal timing. Might be worth borrowing a variable timing light to re-check timing.

 

You mention 'underhood tach'. Are you referring to an engine analyzer to help read rpm?

Link to comment
Share on other sites

My buddy who is going to help me free up the distributor also has a nice Snap-On timing light, which he knows is very accurate. We are going to use that to set the timing.

 

As far as the under hood tach, it is one of these: http://www.summitracing.com/parts/anm-cp7605?seid=srese1&gclid=Cj0KEQjw2sO3BRD49-zdzfb8iLwBEiQAFZgZfFv4JWGMGtAKT_PLTAtn3GDsqN5Pubr96dcRU_u-SeMaAhE68P8HAQ .

 

 

Bill, I see you are from Buffalo as well! I bet we will cross paths at a show some time or other. Do you ever go to Polish Falcons on Thursdays, or the Cars and Coffee at the OP Orchard Fresh? I believe we are getting an MCA show at Beaver Island State Park this year, I definitely plan on being there.

1971 Mach 1, Grabber Blue with 5W Deluxe White Interior, 351C H code with Edelbrock 4 barrel

Link to comment
Share on other sites

That appears to be a decent analyzer. I think we'll all be interested in results from a different light.

 

Long time attendee of Falcon's cruises as well as all the others that occur from May - Sept. I'm sure we will meet up very soon. Still on the fence on the national MCA show but if I make the decision, it will be my 69 convertible since I retired my 73 vert from MCA about 5 years ago after it had won 4 1st's and a feature article in Mustang Times. I got tired of cleaning it to show standards since I've always driven it to and from the events.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

That sounds awesome. I work just down the block from the Falcons, so I am sure I will be there at least a couple of times this summer. I have never brought the Mach 1 their, but I have been there in my '78 280z. Pautlers is another favorite of mine, tends to be a nice turn out without getting too crazy.

 

I will be sure to post an update when we get the distributor free and get the timing set as it should be. Probably won't be until next weekend though.

1971 Mach 1, Grabber Blue with 5W Deluxe White Interior, 351C H code with Edelbrock 4 barrel

Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • 3 weeks later...

So, I finally got the distributor loosen up. Took a lot of penetrating fluid and a rubber mallet. It turns out that the timing really was very far advanced, 22° btdc or more.

 

I set the timing for between 12 and 13° btdc at 500 rpm, with the vacuum advance disconnected. When idling at 750 rpm, the mechanical advance kicks in a but to bring it to around 15° btdc.

 

I did not have a helper, so I couldn't check what the total timing is.

 

I did check the vacuum. Previously, at idle the car would pull upwards of 22"hg. With the timing set to 12 now, it pulls around 18 at 500 rpm and 20 at 750 rpm.

 

This is all I can do for now, snow has started falling again. I will need to wait for more rain to clean the streets before I can start tuning the carb.

1971 Mach 1, Grabber Blue with 5W Deluxe White Interior, 351C H code with Edelbrock 4 barrel

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Guest Pastel Blue

Speaking of vacuum, I remember my last 429cj Mach had a new cam put in as recommended by a buddy. Can't recall the cam specs, but with it, the engine would only pull 5" of vacuum at idle... When the rpm's hit 3000, the engine woke up and wow! Probably not the best for a street application, live and learn...[/i]

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Yeah, 5" is nothing. I am surprised it was able to pull in enough fuel to run.

 

Did it have power brakes? Those probably would have been worthless too.

1971 Mach 1, Grabber Blue with 5W Deluxe White Interior, 351C H code with Edelbrock 4 barrel

Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • 2 weeks later...

has anyone mentioned damper balance. these engines are usually externally balanced meaning the damper and flywheel are balance together with rotating assembly. putting on a new damper may mess up the balance and cause vibration. if new damper caused vibration may be a good idea to visit an engine balancer with the new and old damper to see if the balance can be duplicated in the new damper. also the windsor and cleveland cranks use different size snouts about .005 inch different so be careful the damper is engine specific. last time I had my cleveland balanced w/ stock damper the builder took a ton of metal off the damper to get it balanced so each damper can be constructed very differently.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

So, I solved the mystery of the crazy advanced "initial" timing. Worn out distributor springs! I was getting ~ 10 degrees of mechanical advance even at idle. I am assuming at some point the initial timing was set around 12° btdc, but as the springs wore out, more and more mechanical advance crept in.

 

I wasn't pinging, because the total advance was still between 38 and 40°. A little high, but not catastrophically so. I assume I didn't have starting problemschool because the starter was not spinning the engine fast enough to get significant mechanical advance, it wasn't until it started running in its own that it reached that point.

 

After I got the distribute freed up and "initial" timing set to 12° btdc, I noticed a drop in high rpm power, likely due to the fact that I had unknowingly decreased my total advance to ~25°.

 

I put on a set of the P925D advance springs after realizing that my springs may be shot. Initial advance dropped right down to 0°, confirming that my old springs has given up the ghost. I now have initial timing set to 10° btdc, with total mechanical advance of 35° coming in right around 2800 rpm.

 

I still have the sudden WOT bog, but at least I have the timing and ignition all sorted so now I can focus on the carb.

 

Mycoses, the new balance seems correct. I have verified TDC, and verified with a protractor that the counter balance weight is at least in the same position as that of the old damper. Keep in mind, the old damper counterbalance wound not have spun, as it is not on the outer ring with the timing marks. The engine seems to run very smoothly now. The damper I got was from an Australian company, specifically designed for the Cleveland. Australia had the Cleveland in production for a much longer time than we did here in the US. That is part of the reason I went with that specific damper.

1971 Mach 1, Grabber Blue with 5W Deluxe White Interior, 351C H code with Edelbrock 4 barrel

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Join the conversation

You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.

Guest
Reply to this topic...

×   Pasted as rich text.   Paste as plain text instead

  Only 75 emoji are allowed.

×   Your link has been automatically embedded.   Display as a link instead

×   Your previous content has been restored.   Clear editor

×   You cannot paste images directly. Upload or insert images from URL.

 Share

  • Recently Browsing   0 members

    • No registered users viewing this page.

×
×
  • Create New...