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exploding oil filter, Please Help!!


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It doesn't matter where the pressure gauge is located in the system, because in general, the pressure within the system is the same everywhere.

 

There is a bypass valve in the oil pump just as I and others have stated . There is ALSO an anti drain back valve in the filter.

 

As I mentioned, I would try a high pressure filter and 5w-30 or 10w-30 oil first before assuming the valve is stuck because it is far less work.

 

 

This is bad advice... put a high pressure filter on and run it??? If OP has a blockage then that will result in the destruction of his crankshaft along with the first two connecting rods. No oil in that part of the engine is bad.

 

Even if it is just the pump then what good does it do to put a high pressure racing filter on it? Great, the filter does not burst. OP still has a bad pump and will still damage the distributor gear on the cam.

 

 

I based this suggestion on the fact that he has primed the engine and saw oil coming out of all the push rods . The oil goes to the crank before or at the same time it goes to the cam on a Cleveland, therefore it's reasonable to theorize that since there is oil flow to the cam, there is oil flow to the crank as well, especially since it is impossible to install the crank bearings in a way that would allow oil flow to the cam but not the crank.

 

Also, he has also already started his engine, so if there was some blockage inside the engine itself, it may have already done damage, plus is there was a blockage inside the engine and he changed the pump the engine would still get damaged.

 

 

It will not damage anything if he does it the way I suggested in post 28 .

 

FROM POST 28

 

ok, i reread your thread.

 

your brad penn was thinner than your straight weight vr1 when it was cold so that made the problem WORSE.

 

i also see that you are in minnesota so i looked up the air temp which was around a high of 50.

 

the oil filters you tried have a burst pressure of around 300 psi . a royal purple filter is 600 psi but the seal should blow at around 300 psi.

 

before you tear the thing apart, you might consider installing a royal purple filter and 5w-30 or 10w-30 conventional oil with at least 1150 ppm of ZDDP or ZDDB.

 

I would also consider using a dedicated break in oil.

 

if your oil pressure stays above 100 for more than a few seconds, i would turn it off and remove the pump.

 

http://www.oreillyauto.com/site/c/search/Conventional+-+5W-30/N0423/C0162.oap

 

ROYAL PURPLE BREAK IN OIL ... 10W-30 .... ZDDP 1200

COMP CAMS BREAK IN OIL ....... 10W-30 .... ZDDP 3000

VALVOLINE VR-1 ..................... 10W-30 .... ZDDP 1250

JOE GIBBS HOT ROD OIL .......... 10W-30 .... ZDDP 1250

.

 

...and OP destroys an engine based on your advice. This is not the type of advice that is good or helpful to the membership.

 

Fair warning...the discussion path you seem to be wanting to go down may not end favorably.

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...and OP destroys an engine based on your advice. This is not the type of advice that is good or helpful to the membership.

 

Fair warning...the discussion path you seem to be wanting to go down may not end favorably.

 

 

I added more to my post above which you didn't see.

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It has not been broken in, but was ran on a simulator.

 

Are you saying that the engine was broken in on a simulator or the cam was?

 

If the engine was broken in who did it?

 

What oil pump did they use?

 

What oil did they use?

 

I figured you were referring to the engine which is another reason I suggested just trying the thinner oil and higher pressure filter . If the engine was broken in then there should be no blockages in it . If there were, it would have likely damaged something by now and if the builder broke it in, I would hope he would have corrected any probs before delivering it to you, especially if he is providing a warranty with it.

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To clarify, the filter bypass is intended to address a clogged filter element. In the case where the element becomes clogged the bypass allows oil to bypass the element and prevents it from being disintegrated and pumped through the engine. I've seen the result of a disintegrated element first hand...it's mostly plastered to the oil pickup screen.

 

I believe you stated that you had normal pressure at the gauge. I suggest you tap into the port shown adjacent to the fuel pump (in the diagram Paul posted) to see what the pressure is right at the pump discharge. With a stock spring, you should see no more than ~70psi. With a stuck bypass, it should be easy to go beyond that. The premise is that the restrictors limit the volume of oil able to reach the pressure port at the rear of the block and only allow you to see 60-70 psi, despite much higher pressure upstream of the first restrictor. I don't have first-hand experience with this scenario, I'm only offing based on my understanding and application of fluid dynamics.

 

A much shorter way of saying what I said is that if you plugged the wrong passage and 100% blocked your first main bearing the pump simply can not bypass all of that pressure. Check the pressure by the fuel pump and it will be over 300 at 3000 rpm even with a correctly functioning bypass.

 

Paul of Mo

 

 

Paul,

 

I was wondering what fraction of the pump's capacity the bypass was designed to handle. I certainly don't know, but I'm with you on the point you're making above.

 

BT

 

That is a very good question and google does not seem to know the answer.

 

Melling does not say other than that they state when the bypass is activated your engine will still receive oil pressure.

 

I went out the the junk pile, grabbed an old Cleveland pump and measured the opening with the bypass open. Did some calculations (with a slide rule) and figured that it is about a 40 percent bypass once the bypass is fully open.

 

So with a blocked oil passage early in the system you could have easily have 300 psi at the filter and it would probably burst.

 

I now better understand what I kinda sorta new all along.

 

Thanks,

 

Paul of MO

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...and OP destroys an engine based on your advice. This is not the type of advice that is good or helpful to the membership.

 

Fair warning...the discussion path you seem to be wanting to go down may not end favorably.

 

 

I added more to my post above which you didn't see.

 

 

It is only what I and the other staff members do see on the forum that matters. Whether you added to your post or not is irrelevant.

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...and OP destroys an engine based on your advice. This is not the type of advice that is good or helpful to the membership.

 

Fair warning...the discussion path you seem to be wanting to go down may not end favorably.

 

At this point he hopefully does not have a scored crank and he certainly does not have rods hanging out the side of the block. But he could if he does what you are suggesting.

 

Running the engine with a blocked oil galley going to the first main bearing means no oil to the main and no oil to the first set of connecting rods. There is nothing good that will come from this.

 

Even if it is the bypass then why stress the oil pump drive components?

 

A few seconds with no oil can and will destroy and engine.

 

(He has a roller cam - break in oil and additive levels are irreverent)

 

Paul of MO

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It is only what I and the other staff members do see on the forum that matters. Whether you added to your post or not is irrelevant.

 

I don't understand your comment . I accidentally hit the post button instead of the review button before I was finished posting so I simply hit the edit button so I could complete my post and reposted it . I did not even see your post until I was done posting which you can see by the time of my edit which was 3 minutes before you posted . My apologies that my post was incomplete at the time you saw it.

 

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(He has a roller cam - break in oil and additive levels are irreverent)

Paul of MO

 

Omie1, break in oils are not irrelevant on roller cam engines according to Joe Gibbs Racing and Total Seal Piston Rings and Timken bearings . According to them, in addition to laying down a coating of ZDDP on the cam to improve the cam to roller interface, the break in package is also there to help the break in of other areas where there are high pressure . I prefer not to risk engine damage when I break in engines and therefore try to take every precaution I can.

 

http://www.drivenracingoil.com/news/dro/training-center/articles/roller-cams-need-break-in-too/

http://www.onallcylinders.com/2015/06/24/roller-derby-how-to-properly-break-in-a-roller-camshaft/

 

EXCERPT

 

"Think of a break-in oil like a primer. Putting down primer before you paint establishes a uniform coating to build from, and that is exactly what a break-in oil does – it establishes a uniform anti-wear film that provides the foundation for protection. Just like a thick coat of primer smoothes out a surface, a properly formulated break-in oil does the same thing. The protective layer of ZDDP anti-wear film smoothes out the peaks and valleys that comprise microscopic surfaces on the roller wheels and needle bearings."

 

"Matt Hartford from Total Seal agreed. “High performance ring packs need the right balance of chemical additives in the oil to ensure maximum performance,” he explained. “That is why we worked with Driven to develop our own line of break-in oils. The Driven product is proven to provide the best ring seal while also protecting the valve train. Performance engines typically have roller cams or at least roller rockers, so using the correct break-in oil is critical to keeping the entire engine happy.”

 

"The more aggressive the valve train, the more critical these details become. “It is hard to fall off the bottom of the mountain,” said Brian Reese from COMP Cams. “The more aggressive the valve train is in terms of lift, duration and spring pressure, the less margin of error you have. The little details become critical.”

 

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WOW, I did not mean to start this kind of discussion, but heres the latest news, I tried a K&N HP filter last night, again everything primed fine, oil to the rockers etc..... I walked away for 10 minutes, and came back and just floored the drill and did not pop the filter, I did this several times without popping the filter so I thought maybe we had a winner. BUT.............Once I started the engine, POP went the weasal. So before I do any damage, the pump is getting replaced. I talked to the pump manufacturer yesterday and he said he will replace the pump, I also talked to Tim yesterday and he said he simulated the engine after build and verified that oil IS getting to everything in the engine so I don't think there are any restrictions, I think for whatever reason the bypass valve is just getting stuck during the initial pressure spike upon start-up. Thanks for all the info and advise gents, as usual there is so much wisdom and expertise here on the forum. Will keep everybody posted!!!

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Omie,

 

You did not start anything bad. You have a lot of time and money in your new engine and the members of this group would be heartbroken if it got damaged due to dubious advice.

 

I am concerned that you blew a HP filter the second the engine fired up.

 

Here is my logic.

 

If the bypass is stuck open then you would have normal oil pressure when cold and low oil pressure when warm. If it is stuck closed then you would have high pressure when the engine is cold and normal pressure when warm.

 

I just don't think a standard pressure oil pump that is not bypassing when cold could pop a HP filter rated at 600 pounds. It certainly could not make enough psi to pop this type filter if it was stuck open and bypassing unless something is blocking the oil flow. I hope I am wrong.

 

The cam and lifters can still get oil if the first main galley is blocked through the small passage that feeds the distributor. This would be one hell of a restriction but some oil would get past.

 

You have to keep us posted. There are a lot of people following this.

 

Paul of Mo

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I keep seeing this "simulated" of the engine. Can someone explain what this is? I've been reading this everything I am seeing points to a blocked oil passage, I am no expert though. Paul's logic seems to make sense to me. I just don't know what is being referred to as far as running on a simulator?

73 Grande H Code. Headman long tube headers, T-5 Transmission, 3.70 Traclok, Lowered 1" all around, Aussie 2v heads w/ 2.19 intake, 1.71 exhaust, screw in studs, full roller cam 608/612 lift 280/281 duration LSA 112, Quick Fuel 750 CFM double pumper, AirGap intake.

 

- Jason

 

 

082-hot-rod-power-tour-2017-1970-1970s.jpg

 

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I keep seeing this "simulated" of the engine. Can someone explain what this is? I've been reading this everything I am seeing points to a blocked oil passage, I am no expert though. Paul's logic seems to make sense to me. I just don't know what is being referred to as far as running on a simulator?

 

Me also, do not understand what you are describing.

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WOW, I did not mean to start this kind of discussion, but heres the latest news, I tried a K&N HP filter last night, again everything primed fine, oil to the rockers etc..... I walked away for 10 minutes, and came back and just floored the drill and did not pop the filter, I did this several times without popping the filter so I thought maybe we had a winner. BUT.............Once I started the engine, POP went the weasal. So before I do any damage, the pump is getting replaced. I talked to the pump manufacturer yesterday and he said he will replace the pump, I also talked to Tim yesterday and he said he simulated the engine after build and verified that oil IS getting to everything in the engine so I don't think there are any restrictions, I think for whatever reason the bypass valve is just getting stuck during the initial pressure spike upon start-up. Thanks for all the info and advise gents, as usual there is so much wisdom and expertise here on the forum. Will keep everybody posted!!!

 

Thanks for keeping us posted....like many, I'm interested in this and want to see you resolve the issue with the least time/money/heartache.

 

I suggest that when you replace the pump, you connect your pressure gauge to the port next to the fuel pump, as I suggested before. Use your drill to prime. If all is well, the pressure should be ~70 psi (for a stock bypass spring). If you seem pressure much higher (say 100psi) then stop. You need to keep looking. I'm in line with these guys...I suspect a stuck (closed) bypass or some sort of blockage in a main oil galley. Maybe the two are connected somehow.

 

Best wishes and thanks again for keeping us posted.

BT

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I keep seeing this "simulated" of the engine. Can someone explain what this is? I've been reading this everything I am seeing points to a blocked oil passage, I am no expert though. Paul's logic seems to make sense to me. I just don't know what is being referred to as far as running on a simulator?

 

This is a machine that turns the engine over at slow rpms, so you can watch clearances in the valve train and and to see that everything is getting oil , it can be used on motors without intake manifolds too really see everything in side. Dan

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Here is my 393 running on TMeyers simtester

 

That is an awesome tool. We used to use a heavy duty starter that we misted with water to test run an engine like this. Plugs out and thin oil we could get almost 1000 rpm. When the starter started steaming we would quit.

 

That is a good looking engine you have there!

 

 

Paul of Mo

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Here is my 393 running on TMeyers simtester

 

That is really cool. I have never seen a machine like that. I have seen a starter used as Paul mentioned. This method seems to be much more controlled.

73 Grande H Code. Headman long tube headers, T-5 Transmission, 3.70 Traclok, Lowered 1" all around, Aussie 2v heads w/ 2.19 intake, 1.71 exhaust, screw in studs, full roller cam 608/612 lift 280/281 duration LSA 112, Quick Fuel 750 CFM double pumper, AirGap intake.

 

- Jason

 

 

082-hot-rod-power-tour-2017-1970-1970s.jpg

 

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LOL!! Those batons must of been made by Acme. That is Wile E. Coyote's supplier of all the things he uses in his ill fated ideals. And appears to have the same outcome that would have happened to him! Good find 72HCODE! lollerz

Steve

 

No Officer...I really don't know how fast I was going, my speedometer stopped at 140!

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I'm just really hoping I can get my oil pan off without pulling the whole motor back out. I have the Moroso 7 qt pan, anybody ever remove one of these pans without completely removing the engine? I know I will have to raise the engine a couple inches at least, maybe drop the sway bar? Thanks for all the help everybody!!

 

Below is just one of a few different ways to do it.

 

Remove positive battery cable.

 

Remove oil dip stick.

 

Remove fan shroud bolts and rest shroud on fan because fan will hit the shroud when you jack the engine up if you have the stock setup.

 

Apply E brake then Jack front end up and install jacks or use drive up ramps . Block rear wheels also if you have blocks.

 

Inspect the exhaust before jacking engine up to see if anything might hit or bind.

 

Loosen trans mount nuts . This will prevent the mount from cracking when you jack the engine up.

 

If necessary, mark the location of the shift rod on the shifter then remove it from the shifter to prevent anything from getting bent etc . Make sure the E brake is on in case you accidentally knock it out of park even though it's nearly impossible for it to roll.

 

Put newspapers on ground under engine to catch drips.

 

Remove sway bar.

 

Remove the starter if you want more room.

 

Drain oil and remove oil filter then reinstall drain bolt and tighten it.

 

Wipe the filter mount area . It should no longer drip after doing that.

 

Remove the long engine mount bolts that go thru the frame . If they don't easily come out, wait until you jack it up slightly then remove them.

 

If you have an auto trans, undo the bracket that holds the trans lines to the engine . Undo the trans lines from the radiator . You can sometimes leave them attached but there is some risk of possible cracking or kinking involved if you do that . With the bracket unbolted and the lines disconnected from the radiator, you can pull them off to the side and hold them with wire or long zip tie etc . This keeps them out of your way when working on the pan gasket.

 

You can lift the engine with a hoist or by installing around a 12" long 2x4 under the front of the oil pan if it has a stock pan . I have done this countless times, however, I have never done this with a Canton pan so make your own decision about doing this . Make sure the engine mount bolts are removed.

 

Once all is good, jack engine up a little at a time while periodically checking clearances.

 

Your limit "should" be when the trans hits the top of the tunnel.

 

Once the engine is as high as you want it, you can place wood under the engine mounts then lower the jack to remove it if you used a floor jack.

 

Undo the pan bolts then pull it down . It might take some effort due to sealers that might have been used.

 

Remove the oil pump mounting bolts then lower the pump into the pan . If the counter weight on the crank is limiting your access to the oil pump bolts, you can rotate it until it is out of the way . After the pump bolts are removed, simply lower the pump into the pan . The oil pump driveshaft will likely come with it . This can easily be pulled out of the pump . There may be a clip on the shaft . If there is, note where the clip is and reinstall the shaft it in the same direction or mark one end.

 

Try to remove the pan . You may have to rotate the crank to get the counterweights out of the way.

 

After installing the pan gasket for reassembly however you want to do it, place the pump in the pan then position the pan under the engine with it resting on the cross member.

 

Install the oil pump driveshaft then the oil pump then the pan.

 

After tightening the pan bolts to spec or with moderate force, I go over all of them two more times because the ones that get tightened first are often a bit loose after the last one is tightened . I do the same thing with the intake manifold bolts for the same reason.

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He has installed his oil pump with studs. Cool but makes it nigh impossible to lower the pump enough to clear the studs before the pick up hits the pan.

 

Omie, Pull the engine, change the pump, you can then prime it on the stand by putting the pickup into a can full of oil and using your drill. Look for oil coming out around the edges of the main journal closest to the timing chain.

 

If anything on the bottom side looks oddly dry you will have your answer.

 

You will probably make a mess - but you are getting real good at cleaning up oil.

 

Thanks and keep keeping us posted (there has been wagering)

 

- Paul of MO

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I'm just really hoping I can get my oil pan off without pulling the whole motor back out.

 

I am going to try to get the pan out with the engine in the car as I no longer have the means to pull the engine all together unless I rent a trailer.

 

Omie01, I'm definitely with you on that one because if it works, it will take maybe 5 hours total as opposed to maybe 15 depending upon how fast you work etc, not including going to get a hoist plus the additional expense . Also, there is far greater risk of scratching something when removing the entire engine, especially if you don't have a helper which you obviously don't need if you only remove the pan.

 

If your oil pump studs are too long to allow you to remove the pump with the pan dropped down, just remove them . If they have been tightened into the block with very much force, you can simply put two nuts on them and tighten the nuts together then try to turn the nut that is closest to the oil pump and they will come right out . If the studs don't protrude beyond the pump far enough to get two standard size nuts on them, you can use thin nuts like jam nuts or similar . These are typically around 35% thinner than standard nuts and I have gotten them at various hardware stores and Fastenall.

 

As far as reinstalling the pump, you can just leave the nuts on the studs and reinstall them with those if you choose to tighten them in the block again which isn't necessary, or you can just buy some regular bolts and lock washers like it originally had . I use grade 8 because many hardware store bolts are Chinese and a Chinese grade 5 is really around a US grade 3.

 

.................................................. JAM NUTS

 

.................................3-8-UNF-Thin-Nut_250_43G3O.jpg?height=248&width=248&scale=both

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I tried to get the pan out without removing the engine and its just NOT going to happen, the Moroso pan is too big, I will be pulling the engine this weekend, I already have all accessories disconnected, exhaust dropped, hoses out and engine and floor cleaned up. I will definitely be testing new pump in engine first and I have a 100psi gauge to check pressure as well. fortunately I'm getting good at it, I wasn't overly happy with my pick-up to pan clearance anyway so I'm going to fix that too!! And I have already bought new grade 8 bolts and lock washers for the pump!!

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Well I got the new oil pump in, and the old one out. I did take the old one apart and inspected it. Its one of those things where "yeah that could be a problem, or maybe not" kind of things. The hole that was drilled for the safety valve, where it meets the bypass cavity was very sharp and not deburred, and I think maybe some of the tumbling media was still in there, also it did not feel very smooth going in and out, but it did travel ok, not great but ok. I did prime the engine again with a 100 psi gauge hooked up to the port next to the fuel pump and got a constant 72 psi at 400 RPM's and the filter did NOT explode. I used 10W30 VR1 oil.

 

More on the old pump, The internal parts were moly coated, but the edges did not look or feel smooth, the color code of the spring was the same color as the other 2 standard volume pumps I have, and I don't think actual bypass valve was polished in any way, it looked like it had the exact same finish as my un-blueprinted pumps. I'm not trying to bash anybody, but other than the moly coated parts it looks like a standard out of the box pump. Oh, and the cap was safety-wired. It's going to take a couple days before I can start the engine again so I will keep everybody posted.:cool:

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Well that's good news, what a major pita.

 

The bypass area on an un-blueprinted pump is not going to be any better or cleaner than it was on your blueprinted pump . now you have seen why i take them apart . my guess is that melling has changed their machining practices from the old days and might even have them made over seas now like many other us based "mfgs" seem to be doing with some of their parts.

 

I don't "polish" the bypass valves nor do i know anyone whom does . i just use some very fine sand paper and water or wd40 on the outside of them and very, very lightly sand them if they feel rough, then i use a hone on the piston bore if it looks rough or if the valve doesn't go thru perfectly smoothly.

 

the deal with the valve is that it will not cause a problem if it is a little loose because it still will not allow much oil past it, therefore, it won't adversely affect oil pressure, however, it can cause probs if the clearance is very small, which is why i prefer to err on the side of caution and make sure it is not on the tight side etc.

 

as far as blue printing oil pumps goes, in addition to addressing the bypass valve area, the gears should be made the same height and the clearance from the gears to the cover should be made to the correct clearance . an excessively large clearance will reduce oil output . they probably did the gear clearance on yours but you just can't tell because they coated the gears.

 

as far as the gears being rough goes, they can be sent out to be REM finished which might cost around $30.00 these days . this would be more beneficial than moly coating them but very few people have heard of this process.

 

some people also smooth the inside of the housing a little if it is rough.

 

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