K. Marti vs. L. Emminger Factory Invoice...

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So, I received my "package" ordered for my 429 vert. From K. Marti today. I had to order a new door data label due to the restoration process which would have destroyed the original one. Fortunately, I was able to remove my original data label to keep for verification and prosperity purposes. I also ordered, all the belts, carb tag, rad cap, Spark plug wires, voltage reg., Wittek clamps etc. Pricey, but nice stuff for a restoration. They have done well by me over the last 20+ years...

Additionally, I ordered the Factory Invoice from Marti (he assumed this database from Lois Emminger a few years back).

I am both a little ticked and I guess somewhat relieved by what was contained in the factory Invoice in comparison to the Marti Deluxe Report I had received when I purchased the car. Everything matches up between the two except for the missing reference of "Bumper Gaurds" on the Factory Invoice.

Initially, having just the Marti Report, no other documentation, I could not understand why my car had no bumper Gaurds on it when I got her. I knew the rear bumper had been changed in the past, but the front was original and there was no signs of "bumperettes" having ever been installed on the car. I researched extensively trying to find out what should be on the car since the Marti report made reference to these on my car. I had no build sheet as it disintegrated under the driver front carpet area...

Now, with this Factory Invoice in my possession, I can safely put the issue to bed... The car did not come with them.

Great, I bought a near mint set a while back, don't know if they are front or back... Once I figure that out, I will sell them...

Not sure how the Marti report included this reference, dissapointing to say the least...

Sometimes, what we see in writing may not be totally accurate, even from trusted sources... It is good to have other documentation, pictures, etc. To help determine the truth.

 
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Kevin's database is not entirely infallible, nor is Lois' work. The occasional discrepancy or error may pop up at times.

That said, if you have an Eminger invoice that doesn't match up with Kevin's report, send him an email. I'm sure he'd be glad to explain the discrepancy; what's more, if there's any error, I dare say he'd be more than happy to correct it.

-Kurt

 
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And this point, I trust the Factory Invoice as this is not something that can be easily, if at all, that can be altered. Kevin's report is one that is put together based on available information at his disposal. It would b easy to slip something in error into their report, next to impossible on the Factory Invoice. It's unfortunate, but the two documents are different as described.

Yes, I could contact him and go through the process to have it corrected, that was not my intent or my point in this post. What's done is done, caused me some $$ and hours trying to figure out what was what. Had I not ordered additional documentation, I would never have known that the car did not come from the factory with the bumper guards.

Again, one cannot believe everything they read, continue searching for answers until sufficient proof one way or another is provided. I have my proof, time to move on.

 
And this point, I trust the Factory Invoice as this is not something that can be easily, if at all, that can be altered. Kevin's report is one that is put together based on available information at his disposal. It would b easy to slip something in error into their report, next to impossible on the Factory Invoice. It's unfortunate, but the two documents are different as described.
Kevin's information is put together based on the same invoices Lois had, though his database of the invoices is on a computer system - and it's possible for the system to have an error that the physical paper invoice does not have (plus, some of the wording on invoices vary depending on year/batch).

As for trying to find your invoice to verify it: Consider the fact that when Kevin acquired the original factory invoices, NPD sent out about 5 (might have been 7, don't recall) semi trucks out as a courtesy to move the documents (to an NPD warehouse).

Kevin is managing this pretty much on his own, as there hasn't been a single person on the job market that he has hired who has been intelligent and throughout enough to properly write a report or invoice (window stickers being the toughest).

Not trying to belittle your frustration here, but Kevin is essentially a fellow collector who has dedicated (given up?) a good part of his life and money (he has a family, you know) to preserve this database and provide it to the community at a cost that hardly covers his time. He's made an extraordinary sacrifice to provide these services, and it is just slightly upsetting to see people criticize an error without ever attempting to ask Kevin to help rectify it (your original documents can help Kevin fix errors like these in the database, which make it all the more important that the few of us who do have this content share it with him).

-Kurt

 
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And this point, I trust the Factory Invoice as this is not something that can be easily, if at all, that can be altered. Kevin's report is one that is put together based on available information at his disposal. It would b easy to slip something in error into their report, next to impossible on the Factory Invoice. It's unfortunate, but the two documents are different as described.
Kevin's information is put together based on the same invoices Lois had, though his database of the invoices is on a computer system - and it's possible for the system to have an error that the physical paper invoice does not have (plus, some of the wording on invoices vary depending on year/batch).

As for trying to find your invoice to verify it: Consider the fact that when Kevin acquired the original factory invoices, NPD sent out about 5 (might have been 7, don't recall) semi trucks out as a courtesy to move the documents (to an NPD warehouse).

Kevin is managing this pretty much on his own, as there hasn't been a single person on the job market that he has hired who has been intelligent and throughout enough to properly write a report or invoice (window stickers being the toughest).

Not trying to belittle your frustration here, but Kevin is essentially a fellow collector who has dedicated (given up?) a good part of his life and money (he has a family, you know) to preserve this database and provide it to the community at a cost that hardly covers his time. He's made an extraordinary sacrifice to provide these services, and it is just slightly upsetting to see people criticize an error without ever attempting to ask Kevin to help rectify it (your original documents can help Kevin fix errors like these in the database, which make it all the more important that the few of us who do have this content share it with him).

-Kurt
Clearly, you have a soft spot for K. Marti. I am not a bad person in all of this, I simply stated a point (error) and my disappointment in the end result. I ended my conversation with the thought that it is wise to research extensively if you believe something does not add up between the paperwork purchased from a Ford authorized source that cost the consumer good money and what is actually on your car.

I am well aware of K Marti's involvement in the hobby, but he also runs a business that advises people they can receive detailed information concerning their cars. I payed my money and yes, I expected to see similar information in the two documents. As I mentioned, this "small" issue of possible bumper protection being installed on my car did wind up costing me money needlessly, as well as time in hours of researching the issue. Although you choose to defend Marti in this case, the end result could have been much worse for the consumer if the discrepancy had been something much more expensive. I got away relatively unscathed and I have no further concerns.

I was actually relieved to find out the bumper issue had been resolved to my satisfaction after receiving the Factory Invoice.

As for you being upset that I have not contacted Marti on the issue, at the end of the day, not really your concern. I have contacted their office previously on various queries and have left feeling that they had no interest in helping me. I have spent a few thousand $ acquiring products from them in the past. Again, I should not have to be responding here, but your comments have forced my hand, that's fine.

Although you seem bent on making me the issue here, I stand by my post which was to advise others not to trust purchased written documentation implicitly from trusted sources without doing your own homework on your car. If this bothers you that much, you can follow up as you see fit. At this time, I have no interest in doing so as was my intention from the get go.

 
Mine were right on the money, I have heard of a few people that there Marti and invoice didn't match up, but you have to conceder Kevin had to decode everything and make the database, so an error or two has to be expected.

dealer invoice 72.jpg

Marti Report.jpg

 
I think we can all agree that despite best efforts and intentions, errors and mistakes can and will be made along the way - we're all human, in other words.

Without taking sides, I think it's safe to say that without the efforts of Kevin Marti and Lois Emminger, we would be having a LOT more difficulty in researching such information on our vehicles, since Ford did a fairly crappy job of maintaining their records at the time.

As well, Kevin Marti is a businessman as well as an enthusiast. He has taken up the cause to provide this previously "lost" information because he figured out that people would be interested in having it. He also makes a tidy profit for his efforts - being familiar with databases and output products, those Marti Reports are realistically only worth about $2.40 each, when you factor in materials to print them, the cost of CPU horsepower/software/storage media, and shipping charges. Is it worth the price he asks? I say Yes, because he needs to recoup the time and effort spent organizing it, after all. But he's gotten this down to a fine science and I'm sure things have gotten a LOT easier for him over time: you order a report for your VIN, he looks it up, exports the information to a pre-defined .PDF, hits "print," stuffs an envelope, sends you an e-mail, and deposits your money. Good for him, I say. ::thumb::

Is it perfect? No. Are all of the details 100% correct, perfect, and accounted for? No. Is it the best that can be done with the information provided? Probably, but some things have and will continue to slip through the cracks - it happens. Are we in MUCH better shape than the Mopar and Chevy guys when it comes to information resources as a result of Lois and Kevin's efforts? Absolutely.

Let's not get too wrapped around the axle here, guys. :cool:

 
I thought Marti uses an old Ford database? So he has flawless access to the data?

Errors are easily made by humans. Maybe the guards were incorrectly added to the sheet or maybe somebody put them on but they weren't ordered. Who knows?

 
Agree with most of the comments here, what's done is done, people make mistakes, however, it is easier to accept[/align] when it doesn't happen to you...

K. Marti saw a business opportunity, seized it and has done well by it, good for him.

I am having trouble accepting "mistakes happen, part of the business" aspect of these conversations. If this had been a mistake say, your told on the report that your car came with ram air. So, you go out buy and all the pieces install it only to find out afterwards that it was not installed on the car or your car came with PW and you do the same...

I'm sorry, but some emphasis has to be put on the responsibility of the business that is advertising reports and the onus is on them to do what is necessary to ensure the correct information is on the report before sending it out, otherwise really; do you want to receive such a report? Its easy to sit back and take another approach when you are not put in that position, consider yourself lucky.

I'm torn here because my intent with the post was to let others know only to do your homework when researching your car, buying parts, accepting information from others, etc. If I am being asked to accept the mistake, well like 99% of you here, I don't but it is not the end of the world. Put this to bed, move on and good luck to all as you continue to enjoy the hobby. Thanks

 
Ken,

Nobody's asking anybody to accept anything about anything. Obviously, you didn't accept what you believed to be a mistake and found what you believe to be the truth on your own - which is great! Now you know what you know. ::thumb::

I, however, am attempting to prevent this from turning into another butting of heads between two respected members who have different opinions on this topic... and I will prevail in the end. Just sayin'. ;) :whistling:

 
Hey everyone take a deep breath and relax.

We all know that Ford kept the records due to recall requirements. GM kept theirs also they just have not shared. I am told they are in storage in a salt mine somewhere. Yes we are lucky that Marti has kept them going. It does seem a little steep when you pay $500 for a new VIN tag for your dash, yes he does make and sell them. Tiny piece of aluminum. Same with engine and rear tags. Anyone can order the stamps from Argon and make them you just cannot sell them without an agreement with Ford.

Hey if we were all perfect we would not be working on old Mustangs. No car on the Forum is perfect. In fact most are too perfect. There was never a mustang made with perfect gaps, no orange peel and everything coated in way too much paint. Ford built cars using the minimum of everything to save every penny. Dents came with your new Mustang along with runs, orange peel and bare metal. Just like they say a Mustang is only original once then in my opinion it is just another resto mod nothing like original and no comparison doesn't matter if it is a 250 6 cyl. or a SCJ 429.

Marti does a great job and we all owe him a thanks. There will never be anyone of us that is perfect and our cars should not be perfect so they would be more original.

 
Hey everyone take a deep breath and relax.

We all know that Ford kept the records due to recall requirements. GM kept theirs also they just have not shared. I am told they are in storage in a salt mine somewhere. Yes we are lucky that Marti has kept them going. It does seem a little steep when you pay $500 for a new VIN tag for your dash, yes he does make and sell them. Tiny piece of aluminum. Same with engine and rear tags. Anyone can order the stamps from Argon and make them you just cannot sell them without an agreement with Ford.

Hey if we were all perfect we would not be working on old Mustangs. No car on the Forum is perfect. In fact most are too perfect. There was never a mustang made with perfect gaps, no orange peel and everything coated in way too much paint. Ford built cars using the minimum of everything to save every penny. Dents came with your new Mustang along with runs, orange peel and bare metal. Just like they say a Mustang is only original once then in my opinion it is just another resto mod nothing like original and no comparison doesn't matter if it is a 250 6 cyl. or a SCJ 429.

Marti does a great job and we all owe him a thanks. There will never be anyone of us that is perfect and our cars should not be perfect so they would be more original.
Well said.

John J

 
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