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Build up 302 or drop a 460


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Tataocb,

 

As much money and time to get the machine work, plus getting all the parts, I would do a turn key setup over having my 1984 GT 302 roller rebuilt.

 

I know this is way off budget base.

 

https://prestigemoto.com/347-ford-stroker-crate-engine-425.html

 

111jn12.jpg

 

Dyno Tested / 3 Year Warranty

 

Horsepower: 425

Torque: 425

Bore / Stroke: 4.030 x 3.400

Compression: 10:1

Fuel Requirement: 91-93 Octane USA 95+ RON

 

 

This may give you an idea to look at possible way.

 

mustang7173 :bravo:

Thanks,

mustang7173 🇺🇸

"Courage is being scared to death but saddling up anyway" -- John Wayne

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A 302 will never be able to make what a 460 does on the low end, which is torque. Torque is what gives you the seat-of-the-pants feel on take-off. The more you build a 302 the higher up the RPM range the power range will be. Generally, the longer the stroke is compared to the bore the more torque an engine will make. The 302 (as well as most Ford auto engines) is an "over-square" engine with a bore bigger than the stroke (4.00" bore by 3.00" stroke). The 351W, C, and M are 4.00" x 3.50" and the 400M is 4.00" x 4.00". The 429 is 4.36" x 3.59" and the 460 is 4.36" x 3.85". The 427 Windsor stroker is 4.125" x 4.00".

 

 

“If you can't explain it simply, you don't understand it well enough.”

--Albert Einstein

 

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Tataocb, you are my hero. You keep buying engines, changing your mind and making money in the process. I say just keep doing that until you find what you want. If nothing else you will have some extra cash. Sorry I don't have any good advice besides that.

 

Scott

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Tataocb, you are my hero. You keep buying engines, changing your mind and making money in the process. I say just keep doing that until you find what you want. If nothing else you will have some extra cash. Sorry I don't have any good advice besides that.

 

Scott

Lol.....yeah, luckily I have been able to make money on these.

 

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Just my 2-cents from my my personal experience. I've done it both ways. Bought a '71 351 windsor out of a cougar for $150. bought a Scat stroker crank to take it to 393. Comp cams 270 or 280, can't remember exactly, stock heads re-worked, low-rise dual plane intake, and holley 650, MSD electronic dist. Builder charged me $1650 to build it, Including the crank. Problem was he used the wrong pistons, I put it in the car and it was wicked but had problems with detonation. CP turned out to be 14:1. He rebuilt it and I added AFR170 heads. Little motor dynoed at 425HP and 450 torque but went flat above 5500 rpm. Limiting factor was intake design. BUT, Thats what I wanted it for-low end torque. Great relatively inexpensive street motor. While that motor was on dyno I came across a 427FE side-oiler. this was going in a 68 shelby GT500 so I decided it needed the big block. Paid $4000 for a non-running 427. Had a bad cam. Followed pretty much the same formula -comp cams, MSD, except had ford Medium riser 2-4 intake with 2 600 cfm carbs, added eldelbrock alum heads. In taking the engine apart to freshen up and replace cam, found out that it had been stroked "Old School" by offset grinding a forged 391 truck crank. Swapped the 393 in the car for 427. Driveability and handling were night and day. 393 was light and responsive, 427 was nose heavy. Of coursed 427 was much faster on top end, it never stopped pulling, but in retrospect, for a daily driver, the stroked windsor was a better choice, and much,much,much less temperamental and expensive.

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  • 2 weeks later...

Mbrew2 - thanks for sharing your experience. I think a "windsor" is probably the less complicated way to go.

 

Continuing with the tradition of buying parts...I got this great deal on a pair of complete 289 C6OE 54cc chamber heads with relapped valves and new valve stem seals, 2 bbl intake and autolite 2100. I thought I might use the heads to raise compression, but I am not sure since these probably won't flow much better than the current heads. But the deal was too good to pass.

 

I checked the tag on the rear end and the ratio is 3.00. The motor has a hesitation when I hit the gas from a complete stop. I rebuilt the carb a couple months ago. The accelerator pump is working as I can see gas going in when I push the accelerator pump rod/linkage. I cleaned up the balancer. The distributor was hooked up to manifold vaccum and the initial timing was set to 6 BTDC, so I hooked it up to ported vaccum and set initial timing at 10 BTDC. I hoped that would fix the issue, but it did not. When I hit the gas it's sometimes it will just shut off. I thought I'd try the autolite carb I got as part of the deal, but the linkage is setup for a manual transmission.

 

Any idea on what else to check or should I start a new thread? If I try to swap the linkage between the 2 carbs, do I need to disassemble the throttle shaft and throttle valves? My current carb is a 1.08, the one I got as part of the bundle is a 1.14 venturi.

 

I know a 2 bbl and 3.00 gears won't feel too powerful off the line. Would a performer intake with a 1406 make a significant difference? Or will most bolt ons not really make much of a difference with 3.00 gears?

 

 

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So I eventually bought a 73 351w for $300 which needs rebuilding. I have found an 84 351w already rebuilt with about 20k miles going for $900. I assume I will end up spending another $1300+ dollars to get the engine rebuilt. It has made me wonder how much more power will I get from a stock 351w 4 bbl when compared to my 302 and throwing in an edelbrock performer intake along with an edelbrock carb?

 

 

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you will spend a lot more than 1300 rebuilding it.

 

you will get a lot more torque/power

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I know a 2 bbl and 3.00 gears won't feel too powerful off the line. Would a performer intake with a 1406 make a significant difference? Or will most bolt ons not really make much of a difference with 3.00 gears?

 

 

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With everything properly tuned and running as optimally as possible, there would be a noticeable increase in power between the 1406/Performer and the 2bbl/2V intake - not a huge increase, but definitely noticeable. The 3.00 gears are indeed a limiting factor, since they're designed more for cruising, economy, etc.

 

I have a 1406/Performer intake on my 351C-2V with the stock heads (mildly worked over by my machine shop, though), and it runs great. Lots of power - arguably more than what would've come from the factory, but then again I already have all the go-fast goodies built into it (since it was seized when I got it). I also have 3.00 rear gears, but I can't say I'm completely disappointed in those, either. I do think the AOD is locking up the torque converter into OD too early at such low rpms, which could be remedied with 3.50 gears (and would make the low-end more fun). But the '89 5.0 vert my AOD came out of had 2.75 rear gears, after all. So, I'm kind of on the fence about what to do about that (a quick blip of the throttle unlocks and drops it back to 'D' with no issues, but that's not going to cut it as a long-term Band-Aid).

 

In your case, I'd have to say that you can't fix fundamental issues by simply bolting on a bigger funnel for more gas to be dumped in. You need to determine if your issues are fuel starvation issues, flooding, or something else altogether. If they're fuel starvation issues, then sure - the new carb & intake should have an impact on that. If it's flooding, then the new carb & intake would only make it worse.

 

I'm thinking it's something fundamental (timing-, compression-, or induction-related). You mentioned needing to go with a solid-state ignition system - I'd go with that first. Start with basics.

  • Get a compression test done
  • upgrade to solid state ignition (Pertronix, MSD, Duraspark, take your pick)
  • ensure you have no vacuum leaks and/or fouled plugs
  • check the cap, rotor, spark plug & coil wires
  • get the timing stabilized and set properly
  • get your throttle linkage issues sorted out
  • Exhaust leaks taken care of

 

If the engine's running well, then consider a set of 3.50s for the rear end. Any numbers much bigger, and you'll start losing top end and any hope of fuel economy is out the window.

 

Once you get those things sorted out, then worry about carb, intake, heads, cam, rockers, headers, etc.

 

I'm just thinking along the lines of simply things to start with, because it's a lot easier to find ways to make more power if you're not troubleshooting while doing so.

Eric

mach1sig2.gif

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I like my 3.50 gears. My car can easily light them up if needed. You can wake up a windsor pretty easily with the right parts on it. The 600 carb should work fine when properly tuned.

351w - Ford racing GT40X 178 cc aluminum heads - Ford racing(crane) 1.7 roller rockers - Comp Cams 280H magnum cam .544" / .544" lift - ARP hardware - hedman longtubes - magnaflow exhaust with X pipe - Duraspark - MSD digital 6al box - MSD TFI coil - optima red top battery - tuff stuff 140 amp alternator - weiand stealth intake  - edelbrock 1406 600 carb  - march pullies and brackets - Be cool fan controller - derale electric fan - FMX trans - motive 4.11 gears - traction lok - lakewood traction bars.                                            

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

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In your case, I'd have to say that you can't fix fundamental issues by simply bolting on a bigger funnel for more gas to be dumped in. You need to determine if your issues are fuel starvation issues, flooding, or something else altogether. If they're fuel starvation issues, then sure - the new carb & intake should have an impact on that. If it's flooding, then the new carb & intake would only make it worse.

 

Great advice! I decided to start with that. I took off the carb and noticed fuel doesn't come out when I activate the accelerator pump. I bolted on the Autolite carb and it seemed to Rev fine (but the linkage is for a manual trans). I took it off and noticed that fuel does come out when I activate the accelerator pump.

 

So I inspected the accelerator pump assembly on the Motorcraft and the spring was on backwards, I changed that and now it leaks fuel out of one side of the housing. The diaphragm looks fine, but I guess the housing might be a little warped or the passage is blocked. I will switch out the housings and try again, or might end up swapping the shafts along with the linkage from one carb to the other. If I do that, I wonder if I can swap the choke assembly as well as the autolite is heat activated while the motorcraft is a combination of heat/electric.

 

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I took off the carb and noticed fuel doesn't come out when I activate the accelerator pump. So I inspected the accelerator pump assembly on the Motorcraft and the spring was on backwards, I changed that and now it leaks fuel out of one side of the housing. The diaphragm looks fine, but I guess the housing might be a little warped or the passage is blocked.

 

You can put a piece of 120 or 180 grit sandpaper on a granite couter top or window pane and sand the accelerator pump housing until it has a little shine all the way around . the corners will have the biggest shine because they are bent the most . the power valve covers on the old carbs are also usually warped and can be surfaced the same way.

 

Do not connect the choke to the ignition wire . use the 9 volt post n the back of the alternator

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I let it sit overnight, and the next day, once the gasket had dried up, it sealed up the leak.....the mysteries of science. Regardless, no fuel came out the bottom when I hit the gas. It would still bog down. So I guess it is a blocked passage. I ran a string of copper wire as far in as I could, but still, the same result. When I spray carb cleaner into the passage, nothing comes out the bottom. How do you fix something like that?

 

So I took it upon myself to swap the throttle shaft with the linkage between both carbs. It took a couple of hours to get it done, I also swapped the choke housing to get an electric choke. When I put it back on, it leaked fuel from the filter that acts as the inlet. I turned it with the wrench and it broke...leaving the threaded part stuck in place. I thought I was screwed. Then I ramed one end of a set of pliers as far in as I could and started turning it, and the piece came out. I had a spare filter so I used it, started the car, set the idle speed to 950 rpm, adjusted the mixture screws, readjusted the idle speed and took it for a test drive. It still doesn't have the power I am looking for, but at least the tire (open differential) screeches when I hit the gas coming out of a full stop.

 

I think I am going to wait with the exhaust leak, and just install a new full exhaust system when it comes time for that. I was thinking of using boom tube mufflers...hehe.

 

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  • 3 weeks later...

This 460 has a Weiand intake and a 650 cfm 1406 carb; an HEI distributor, and everything else is stock.

 

This motor with a C6 transmission is now sitting in my garage. I think I have made up my mind now...hehe. It only cost $50 more than what I sold the early 80s 460 for.

 

It comes with motor mounts and the insulator, but they might be slightly different than the ones in the Crites kit.

 

Unfortunately the C6 is the long tailshaft version and came from a column shifter car. Can the long tailshaft version be used in my Mustang by modifying where the crossmember bolts to the bottom of the car, or do I have to convert it to the short tailshaft?

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This 460 has a Weiand intake and a 650 cfm 1406 carb; an HEI distributor, and everything else is stock.

 

This motor with a C6 transmission is now sitting in my garage. I think I have made up my mind now...hehe. It only cost $50 more than what I sold the early 80s 460 for.

 

It comes with motor mounts and the insulator, but they might be slightly different than the ones in the Crites kit.

 

Unfortunately the C6 is the long tailshaft version and came from a column shifter car. Can the long tailshaft version be used in my Mustang by modifying where the crossmember bolts to the bottom of the car, or do I have to convert it to the short tailshaft?

 

You will need to mod or custom build a trans cross member and the driveshaft will obviously end up being shorter.

 

I was able to use a column shift trans with an FMX floor shifter by utilizing a universal shift lever from TCI, some threaded rod and heim joints. If your floor shifter is from a C4 or C6 application it may be possible to do the same but the neutral safety switch may complicate things a bit.

 

Not that you asked but if the intake is a Weiand Stealth my advice would be to sell it or trade it for a regular Edelbrock Performer intake.

73 conv. 460, D0VE large valve heads, Performer RPM manifold, Voodoo 227/233 cam, Holley 950 HP carb, C6 trans, 3.25 trak-loc.

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This 460 has a Weiand intake and a 650 cfm 1406 carb; an HEI distributor, and everything else is stock.

 

This motor with a C6 transmission is now sitting in my garage. I think I have made up my mind now...hehe. It only cost $50 more than what I sold the early 80s 460 for.

 

It comes with motor mounts and the insulator, but they might be slightly different than the ones in the Crites kit.

 

Unfortunately the C6 is the long tailshaft version and came from a column shifter car. Can the long tailshaft version be used in my Mustang by modifying where the crossmember bolts to the bottom of the car, or do I have to convert it to the short tailshaft?

Not that you asked but if the intake is a Weiand Stealth my advice would be to sell it or trade it for a regular Edelbrock Performer intake.

 

I have a C4 right now, but adapting the shifter sounds complicated.

 

It's a Weiand 8012 intake. I am not sure if it will fit under the hood. Is that why you suggest swapping it for a Performer?

 

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This motor with a C6 transmission is now sitting in my garage. I think I have made up my mind now...hehe. It only cost $50 more than what I sold the early 80s 460 for.

 

It comes with motor mounts and the insulator, but they might be slightly different than the ones in the Crites kit.

 

Unfortunately the C6 is the long tailshaft version and came from a column shifter car. Can the long tailshaft version be used in my Mustang by modifying where the crossmember bolts to the bottom of the car, or do I have to convert it to the short tailshaft?

Not that you asked but if the intake is a Weiand Stealth my advice would be to sell it or trade it for a regular Edelbrock Performer intake.

 

I have a C4 right now, but adapting the shifter sounds complicated.

 

It's a Weiand 8012 intake. I am not sure if it will fit under the hood. Is that why you suggest swapping it for a Performer?

 

Sent from my Pixel using Tapatalk

 

In addition to the potential clearance issue it is not the best choice of intake for a mild street driven build.

73 conv. 460, D0VE large valve heads, Performer RPM manifold, Voodoo 227/233 cam, Holley 950 HP carb, C6 trans, 3.25 trak-loc.

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I was contemplating somewhat the same ideas on a 1971 Mach 1 302 3 speed manual car I was going to buy until a purchased a 1973 Mach 1 "Q" code. If staying original looking is your stroke the little beast to 331 or 347. The extra cubic inches alone is enough for seat of the pants power. If changing the motor out is a better option for you I would not lean toward a 460 but 351W. As many have described previously it is much more of a plug and play deal. Personally if I were going this route I would choose a newer style roller block which will aid power later by changing sticks. Not to mention later you can safely make big block power with a stroked pump gas 351W.

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  • 3 weeks later...

I picked up a short tailshaft small block C6 for free on New Year's weekend. I believe the tailshaft is interchangeable, correct?

 

I know nothing about automatic transmissions. Is swapping the tailshaft something relatively simple or something I should take it to a transmission shop for?

 

Some pics:

 

14359fc84e74c798dcc58f2330cb6348.jpg

 

dac2680dd1d2e2046d0f39367ea9c203.jpg

 

42374490de4903b9120c94eac08a9ad9.jpg

 

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  • 9 months later...

Put a 460 and don't look back!

 

I love mine, Easy swap, call a store on the internet their name is Crites they sell engine mounts and information needed to do the swap. It's not cheep like header, intake, and carb on a 302. 302s are nice motors to build inexpensive 350-400 HP but with twice the money you can have a mild built 460 and get an easy 450-500 HP. My Big Block has lots of aluminum total car weight is 3000 LB, I auto crossed it at Cruisin for a cure and did just as good against all the small blocks. Also ET 1/4 mile in 12s.

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This is what I've been thinking about dropping under the hood. Maybe have them upgrade to all forged bottom end.

https://blueprintengines.com/collections/ford-crate-engines/products/ford-306-base

 

HP & Torque: 370 HP / 350 FT LBS

Compression Ratio: 9.5:1

Aluminum Heads

Hypereutectic Pistons

Roller Cam

Cast Steel Crank

 

BLOCK:

 

Hand picked seasoned blocks 

Square and parallel decked

Align honed main bearing bore

Cylinders honed on computer controlled machine to within .0002 straightness and roundness

Cylinders are sonic tested for thickness

 

ROTATING ASSEMBLY:Cast steel crankshaft

Rods w/ 150,000 psi bolts

Hypereutectic pistons

Hastings Moly rings

Balanced rotating assembly

High volume oil pump

Hydraulic roller camshaft

Heavy duty double roller timing set

 

CYLINDER HEADS:BluePrint Performance Aluminum

58-60cc Chamber, 190cc runner

Hardened retainers and springs

2.02 swirl polished intake valves

1.60 swirl polished exhaust valves

BP Aluminum Head Part# HP9009

 

CAM SPECS:Cam Type: Roller

.543 Intake .554 Exhaust

218 Intake / 226 Exhaust duration @ .050 - 112 degree lobe separation

 

IGNITION TIMING:34 degrees at 3500 RPM

 

ALSO INCLUDES:

 

Valve covers

Painted oil pan

Brass freeze plugs

Dyno test results shipped with engine

 

WARRANTY:30 month / 50,000 mile

"I drank what?" - Socrates

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As far as transmission goes, this is my choice

 

https://transmissioncenter.net/product-category/ford/aod/level-4-aod-ford/

 

This is a high performance non-electronic 4R70W transmission. This is accomplished by placing all of the internal parts of an electronic 4R70W or AODE into a non-electronic AOD case. Now you can have an AODE or 4R70W transmission in your 1993 and older Mustang without all the expense of an after market computer and related wiring. This is an easy drop-in direct replacement. Simply remove your AOD transmission and install the A O Dominator. This is a highly modified transmission and torque converter. This package deal comes with a 2200 / 2500 converter stall speed (#16) (non-lock-up only), but can be ordered with any stall speed you need. Some of the features of the A O Dominator are, a two inch wide Carbon Fiber overdrive band, mechanical diode with Spiral “Plus” Ring Kit instead of the stock roller clutch that is prevalent to breakage and a high performance Superior Posi Shift Pac. This transmission has a 4R70W wide ratio gear set, 2.84 ratio first gear (15% lower than an AOD or AODE), 1.55 ratio second gear (5% lower than an AOD or AODE), non-lock-up torque converter, extra hard intermediate shaft (a must for high horse power motors), the Superior “A+” overdrive billet servo for added holding power and 8 clutches in the direct clutch drum (Alto Red Eagle Power Pack). This is 33% more than a stock 4R70W transmission, and the list goes on and on. This is a great transmission for towing and 4WD use.[/color]

 

Wait no longer, now you can have the baddest AOD / 4R70W on the planet. No trade-in needed on this one. This transmission is for motors having up to 750 horse power. Add torque converter upgrades if needed. Call 1-888-2012066 to place an order or ask questions. We have this exact AOD transmission in hundreds of 1965 to 1973 Mustangs and other Fords. Add our conversion kit to your order for $575.00.

"I drank what?" - Socrates

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