351C 2V build

Hey fellas (and gals), its been far too long since I've posted. I've finally started working on my mustang again after 2 or 3 years of not doing anything to it. So, I figured that doing the cam and head swap should be a nice little project to get me motivated to work on it more... About that, I took the intake off and noticed a nice gas aroma from the oil. After draining the oil I found out that gas had been getting into the oil along with some water and some shiny metal. I had been contemplating pulling the motor but now I guess it made that decision easier for me. I should have the motor out and torn down this weekend.

I'm looking for around 400(ish)HP so here's my plan for the motor:

-Ported and polished 2V open chamber heads (they're not ideal but should work)

-Comp Cams XE262H 218/224 @ .050 lift http://www.compcams.com/Company/CC/cam-s...d=847&sb=2

-Harland Sharp 1.73 ratio roller rockers

-Edelbrock Performer intake

-Holley street avenger 770cfm carb (I know this is kind of large for my application but I got it cheap so I'll try it out)

-undecided on pistons (Forged vs Hyper)

-undecided on the ignition system

With all that being said I have a couple of questions for you guys about the build up of my 351C:

Is there anything I should look at upgrading while I have the motor out to get rebuilt?

Do you have any suggestions for what pistons and ignition system to run?

Is it worth going with ARP head studs, main bearing studs and rod bolts?

motor in its current state:



Sorry, for the long post and thanks for looking.

The 351c was also used in the Detomaso Pantera. In this article on one of their forums there are a few things mentioned that you should/could do.

http://pantera.infopop.cc/eve/forums/a/tpc/f/5650045562/m/319104265

Click on my garage for the recipe I used for mine. It looks like you're going in a similar direction as I did.

I went with Hyper pistons, roller "everything," mild port & polish, and a Duraspark ignition, along with the Edelbrock Performer intake, Hooker headers, and the other things to not only make power, but keep the engine appearing fairly stock to use the factory Ram Air.

Some things you'll definitely want/need to do:

• Crane Cams screw-in rocker studs (for the roller rockers)
  
• hardened valve seats
  
• get the intake valley drilled & tapped for the roller lifter keepers (if necessary)
  
• WCCP "Pantera Mod" for the thermostat
  

Hope this helps!

I have not heard good things about the Edelbrock Performer intakes. Look at the Performer RPM series. Planning that for my 67 FE motor. Keep us posted on the project and welcome back from your absence. Life does get in the way at times.

Hey fellas (and gals), its been far too long since I've posted. I've finally started working on my mustang again after 2 or 3 years of not doing anything to it. So, I figured that doing the cam and head swap should be a nice little project to get me motivated to work on it more... About that, I took the intake off and noticed a nice gas aroma from the oil. After draining the oil I found out that gas had been getting into the oil along with some water and some shiny metal. I had been contemplating pulling the motor but now I guess it made that decision easier for me. I should have the motor out and torn down this weekend.

I'm looking for around 400(ish)HP so here's my plan for the motor:

-Ported and polished 2V open chamber heads (they're not ideal but should work)

-Comp Cams XE262H 218/224 @ .050 lift http://www.compcams.com/Company/CC/cam-s...d=847&sb=2

-Harland Sharp 1.73 ratio roller rockers

-Edelbrock Performer intake

-Holley street avenger 770cfm carb (I know this is kind of large for my application but I got it cheap so I'll try it out)

-undecided on pistons (Forged vs Hyper)

-undecided on the ignition system

With all that being said I have a couple of questions for you guys about the build up of my 351C:

Is there anything I should look at upgrading while I have the motor out to get rebuilt?

Do you have any suggestions for what pistons and ignition system to run?

Is it worth going with ARP head studs, main bearing studs and rod bolts?

motor in its current state:

Sorry, for the long post and thanks for looking.

Click to expand...

You need to know what the CR is going to be before trying to select a cam. If the 73 engine is stock, the CR is about 8.0:1. Not much room for a cam with increased overlap. Stock valve train will also limit cam choices, no fast ramp or big lift cams. If you are going to raise the CR and convert to roller rockers the cam choices will expand greatly. Gear ratio and stall speed will also help decide what a good cam choice is. When you have all the specs for the entire drivetrain, call Schneider, Lunati, Bullet, and ask to speak to the Cleveland Guru. While I have no 2V Cleveland experience, it is still a canted valve head and should respond to Lobe Separation Angles changes like a 4V head. So I would think a LSA of about 112 degrees should work well and have good manners (decent idle, make enough vacuum to run the brake booster). As for upgrades, I'd make sure the block was bored and honed with a deck plate. If the machine shop doesn't have one, find a shop that does and is familiar with 351Cs. I'd also deck the block to get very close to zero deck, the piston no more than .005 down the bore when at TDC. Select a head gasket that yields a quench distance of about .045. I'd also install restrictors to the cam bearing, chamfer the oil feed hole at the oil filter boss, match the oil pump to block hole, and check for lifter bore wear. Don't use a high volume oil pump without a larger capacity oil pan.

I would use studs for the main caps, no where else. I definitely would up-grade the rod bolt & nuts, the nuts are a known failure point, and have the rods re-conditioned. The are manufacturers other than ARP that work well and cost less, Pioneer as an example.

As for pistons, my first choice is Mahle Power Pak forged flat tops with their rings. They have the best seal and least drag that I know of. Another perhaps cheaper choice would be Auto-Tec, or forged speed pro, also flat top.

The Sharp rockers a great pieces. Scorpions work very well and should be a bit cheaper. Change the valves to single groove valves (Ferrea, REV, EPN, Manley) use appropriate springs, retainer, locks, and pushrods.

For a distributor, anything with the Ford style trigger (MSD, Rich Porter,etc.) and a properly set curve. For ease I'd use a MSD 6AL amplifier.

Since you have the 770 cfm Holley I'd try it at least. If you are buying a new intake I'd look at the Edelbrock RPM Air Gap.

The most critical selection you will make is the machine shop. If their work is not first quality, the parts you've selected won't matter a whole lot.

Keep us updated on the build. Chuck

Thanks for the info guys. I should clarify a few things, everything that I listed I already have and got for a good price. The heads were reworked with 1 piece valves, guides, seats, ported, milled, drilled and tapped for screw in studs and roller rockers by Turtle5353 and I got the intake from him as well. I picked up the cam from my machine shop for cheap because someone ordered it and never came and got it. The FMX transmission was upgraded with heavy duty parts and I plan on swapping the rear axle with an 8.8 with a LSD and 3.73 gears. As for pistons, I don't suppose the Cleveland and Windsor pistons are interchangeable. I guess I have a lot of decisions to make and hopefully when I tear the motor down it will help clear some of them up.

Click on my garage for the recipe I used for mine. It looks like you're going in a similar direction as I did.

I went with Hyper pistons, roller "everything," mild port & polish, and a Duraspark ignition, along with the Edelbrock Performer intake, Hooker headers, and the other things to not only make power, but keep the engine appearing fairly stock to use the factory Ram Air.

Some things you'll definitely want/need to do:

• Crane Cams screw-in rocker studs (for the roller rockers)
  
• hardened valve seats
  
• get the intake valley drilled & tapped for the roller lifter keepers (if necessary)
  
• WCCP "Pantera Mod" for the thermostat
  

Hope this helps!

Click to expand...

I'll have to look into the pantera mod for the thermostat. I haven't heard of that.

It basically replaces the Cleveland-style thermostat with a Windsor thermostat and a fully closed thermal bypass plate.

I was having overheating issues most likely due to never actually having a Cleveland-style thermostat (parts store kept selling me Windsor thermostats). Basically, my problems went away after making this change, since the bypass pathway was eliminated altogether, rather than expecting the non-existent Cleveland-style thermostat to close it off.

Read about our experiences here: http://www.7173mustangs.com/thread-351-cleveland-thermostat-restrictor

http://www2.cougarpartscatalog.com/waterrestrictplate.html

If your cooling system is working properly, however, you might not want to change a thing. Just offering up what worked for me.

J, I ran some static and dynamic compression number using the cam specs. on the Comp site. You will need to get the static compression to at least 9.0:1, preferably 9.3:1. Zero decking, modest head milling, and a .041, or less, compressed gasket thickness should get you there. I suggest you have one combustion chamber CCed to see you are starting at. I also suggest you have the cam degreed in using a multi-position crank sprocket.

Keep us up-dated. Chuck

I am running a 351c 2v using stock heads. 270hr with roller rockers and roller thrust bearing. Stockish bottom end (rebuilt before I got it so don't know the specs. Performer intake and Holley 670 street avenger carb. Black diamond long tube headers. Accel distributor.

Now the first thing I will mention is I wish I went with a slightly more aggressive cam. But it looks like yours will make power higher in the rpms than mine did. Other than that I am really happy with my engine build for a street car.

I would caution getting compression up too high on the stock open chamber 2v heads unless you have access to non-ethanol 93 octane fuel or higher as you may end up with pinging or detonation and have to retard your timing a bit to get it to stop, effectively de-tuning the engine. I am planning a 2v build with a stock bottom end but with a set of closed chamber aussie 2v heads and roller set up with a fairly aggressive cam. I am running a 5 speed and will be installing 3.70 gears as well.

Compression is your friend, I would not be afraid of running forged pop ups and setting the build up to be in the 10.5-1 range at all.

Restricted cam bearings or restricted pushrods help to reduce excessive oiling of the valvetrain, I'd drill a .030 hole in the oil galley plug behond the cam gear to improve oilingat the distributor gear. A duraspark conversion from Performance Distributors would be my choice for a mild build.

Head studs and main studs are unnecessary at that power level, but good rod bolts and nuts are a must.

Debur the casting flash from the outside of the block so that it looks good and doesn't tear up your hands.

I like an oversized oil pan, and to check and clean up the oil returns as necessary.

Compression is power, oil is life!

Small update: I got the motor out and on the stand yesterday. I'm going to tear it down during the week and hopefully get it to the machine shop by the end of the week.

I got the motor tore down last night and didn't see any major damage. There was some light scoring on some main and rod bearings but I didn't see any major damage to the crank. I brought the block, crank and pistons to the machine shop to get cleaned, magged and measured. A couple of you suggested some oiling mods, can you guys explain those for me a little bit because I'm not sure why you want to restrict the cam bearings.

Thanks again for the info.

I got the motor tore down last night and didn't see any major damage. There was some light scoring on some main and rod bearings but I didn't see any major damage to the crank. I brought the block, crank and pistons to the machine shop to get cleaned, magged and measured. A couple of you suggested some oiling mods, can you guys explain those for me a little bit because I'm not sure why you want to restrict the cam bearings.

Thanks again for the info.

Click to expand...

It is more a matter of having a larger volume of oil available for the crank and rods. Restricting the amount going to the lifters is one way to do that. A much better, and more expensive, fix is to bush the lifter bores with bushings with a small hole for lifter oiling. If you look at the size of the holes at the lifter bores you'll understand why. There are some videos by T Meyer Racing that may be helpful.

Chuck

I didn't see any oil mod videos from them. Do you have a link to one?

I did hear back from the machine shop. They said that they would recommend a .030 overbore because there was some scoring likely from the poor lubrication (gas/water/oil mix). Also they said they can polish the crank but that might cause too much clearance and I might want to go .010 under. What are your guys' opinion on the crank situation? Would it be better to go with a forged crank or is the stock on ok? After giving it some thought I kind of want a higher revving motor, I know that's not very adventitious with the 2V heads but there's something about a high revving Cleveland. With that said I'm looking at different camshafts do you have any suggestions for them? I really appreciate your guys' info, it really helps me for when I go discuss the build with the machine shop.

Thanks,

J, I would go ahead and have the crank cut .010 .010 under. The stock crank cut down will be fine. With the heads and intake you got from me, you will be able to turn 5500-5800 rpm. You should easily be able to get in the 400hp range with the right cam. here is a link to the cam I was running with those heads...... https://www.summitracing.com/parts/cca-cl32-246-4/overview/make/ford

How much RPM is "High revving" to you? Will the rest of the drive train be compatible with high revving? 2V heads and and high revving are not mutually exclusive but, you must understand the trade offs. How much do you intend to drive it on the street, do you care about mileage, do you need to run power brakes?

If you are confident in the capabilities of your machine shop I'd go with their recommendations. As far as the crank goes, if everything is properly prepared, the cast crank should be fine, I've turned stock stroke cast cranks consistently to 7200 RPM.

We'd need a lot more specific build information before beginning to discuss camshafts. RPM is similar to horsepower, "Horsepower costs money, how fast do you want to go?"

I would like to rev it out to 7500rpm regularly, though that's probably not plausible. I don't really care about fuel mileage and its only really going to driven on nice weather days. I don't really know if an FMX can rev that high and I might swap to a hydroboost power brake setup if I don't have enough vacuum to run stock power brakes. I'm sorry if my expectations are high I'm just trying to get as much info so I can decide what to do.

"I would like to rev it out to 7500rpm regularly" That realistically requires an 8000 RPM build.

You will need to spend a LOT of money on premium parts and the engine will not be streetable. The rest of the driveline would need to be replaced. Drop the RPM to 6500 RPM regularly and the build gets a lot cheaper. I'm not trying to be a wet blanket, just trying to help.

What heads do you have?

Chuck