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To Be Or Not To Be...Original Or Modded?


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OK, so I've decided that I would like to have a full engine rebuild be a part of the overall restoration of my 72 Mach 1 Q Code. 

 

My question is simply this...  If you want to keep your car "original" does that just come down to the markings on the outside of the engine block and anything else that is fully visible?  I've noticed on the good ole inter-webs that this engine is very capable of producing 500hp and even higher.  So of course I'm trying to figure out what my options are and at what point is your car no longer "original"??  If you do a performance build does that automatically nix the stock 4bbl carburetor?  If I change some of the internals and all of a sudden my engine is producing much more horsepower does that negate its originality? 

 

What are my options as far as rebuild kits go?  I've seen several threads here but wondered if there was a consensus on which kit was best for a standard rebuild and also for a performance rebuild?

 

Does something like this kit I found on Ebay fit the bill with its Comp Cams or is it no good?  Any input would be very much appreciated. 

 

Thanks everyone! ::thumb::

Stang Life!

 

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It really depends on what you like. If you want to keep the car original there are grades/steps to just how original you want to be. I know many extremely original cars that have some modifications. But they are done in a way to not jump out at you upon observation(s). To me concourse doesn't mean 100% original. To me 100% original means the car is just like it left the factory or arrived at the dealer. Concourse is definitely a very high level of restoration.

 

So just pay attention to the details - even the little ones and make it look as original as you can while keeping it safe and enjoy your car. If that is the direction you are shooting for.

 

As far as your engine questions - there are plenty of builders on here that can help with those! There is a 351 engine forum that has good info too. Hopefully another member will post a link to it here.

 

Ray

1971 Boss 351  

1972 Q code 4 speed convertible 

1971 Mustang Sportsroof  351-2V FMX 

1971 Hardtop (parts car)

1973 Mach 1 (parts car)

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If you want it to be a stock build, then you'll need to put new versions of the original factory parts back in, and configure according to factory specs.

 

If you want it to look like a stock build but have more power, you can certainly replace internals with performance goodies (nobody's ever going to see them, after all), and forego the performance cosmetics.  For instance, my engine has a lot of chrome bling, because that's what I like.  I could've just as easily gone with factory-style replacement cosmetic pieces (like valve covers, etc.), painted everything Corporate Blue (as opposed to Duplicolor "Old Ford Blue"), and do a better job of hiding the other things (like the Duraspark ignition box, etc.).

 

If you install an Edelbrock Performer intake and file off the Edelbrock badging then paint it Corporate Blue, only the very knowledgeable purists would be able to tell that you had an aftermarket intake sitting under your factory style air cleaner when the hood's up at a car show.  I wouldn't go that far just for that, though.  Paint it Corporate Blue?  Maybe... file off the aftermarket performance evidence/logos?  Not so much.

 

Hey - it's your car, and nobody's going to reward or penalize you for whichever way you go.  So, figure out how important it is to maintain stock appearances... or not... I guess is the question.

Eric

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As Boss1Ray said it really depends on what you like and what your purpose is. Most 100% concurs original cars do not get driven. Even the ones that are very close to 100% original will not be driven or driven very little. There is actually rule books and politics involved in what is 'original' from a judging standpoint. It is very expensive to put together an 'original' car. The better alternative would be to buy one that is very original and not many miles.

 

If you are going for an original look then you have some more flexibility. You can run different internals in the engine and it still appears original. You can replace the points with an electronic distributor and no one will see unless they pop the distributor cap. Even the carb can be replaced with something different and if you leave the air cleaner on most people would be none the wiser. Lots of people use an aftermarket intake and just paint it ford blue. If you build an engine to get to 500hp it will be obvious that it is not original. The lope alone will be a give away. You probably will want roller rockers and that might require taller valve covers. Headers would help get the best horse power out of a really built engine.

'Mike'

73 Convertible - 351C/4V CC heads/4bolt/forged flat tops/comp 270/rhodes/mallory unilite/tri-power/hookers/glasspacks/c6/3.50 limited slip/Gear Vendors/Global West sub frames, strut rods and shelby style traction bars/ Rear sway bar/tilt steering (not original)

 

Pics of modifications included in: [button=http://www.7173mustangs.com/thread-1973-convertible--3335]My Garage[/button]

 

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I'm not into originality, but I recognize the value. My vote (if I got one) would be to build a better engine that looked stock and sounded close to stock, but produced a real 350-400 horsepower at the flywheel.

 

stroke it to a 393 or 408, use a mild cam without extreme duration, build it at a true 10:1 compression ratio and swap over to a Holley carb between 750 and 850 cfm. You'll end up with a much more fun to drive car and you won't totally overwhelm the stock suspension.

http://www.7173mustangs.com/gallery/1_01_07_15_8_53_18.png

 

"I love my Hookers!" and "Get some Strange" probably have a different connotation to non automotive enthusiasts!

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Guest Pastel Blue

I think I can add some current perspective here. I am doing a very high level and very expensive restoration on my J Code vert. 

 

As the car was very well used by the time I got it, there are some items that will never be returned to absolute pristine condition, not for a lack of trying, just that the exact similar part simply is not available today. A good example of this is the original wire harness, wiring throughout the car. You can only do so much with what you have...

 

Sticking to the engine question, I have been obsessed with ensuring that the exterior of my engine, all components are both factory correct and appear as they would have leaving the factory. Again, you can only do so much...

 

Internally, is a different story... my engine was in very poor shape and many of the original pieces had been swapped out previously. I searched out some exact replacements but I also upgraded on some parts as locating exact virgin pieces was not going to happen today.

 

I spent big $$$ on the engine, internally and in obtaining the correct and date coded missing external pieces (carb, distributor and alternator). I found a shop that went the full monty..., ensuring that every aspect of the build was done properly.

 

My understanding of the value aspect is that having the original block, heads, manifolds, intake etc are deemed as having the original engine intact to the car. Changes to internals that are not to extreme are generally accepted. An example for me would be the camshaft, you can not locate a true from the factory cj camshaft today, so I went with one that had very similar specs so that the engine would run similar to that at the factory.

 

 I doubt that many cars crossing the auction block claiming to have the original engine, do I fact have all original pieces, unless it is a very low mileage, rarely ever driven car.

 

 An original car is generally advertised at auction as having its original engine (ie. block, heads, etc), not confirming that every single piece in the engine is original to the car... obviously, external components must be factory correct.

 

Lots of opinions out there, but for my restoration, there will be few whom can find many differences from factory original with my engine and compartment once completed. That is my ultimate goal...The best I could do 45 years after the fact...

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There any many things to be considered when doing an engine rebuild. How much performance do you want? Are you willing to upgrade the rest of the drivetrain to handle additional power? What is the realistic budget to complete the upgrade? Can you do some of the work or is it all going to be hired out? You can have an engine that looks stock or near stock yet make much more power than what it originally made. I give up a few points at shows for having headers, a deep sump pan, and a non-motorcraft carb. Making the Motorcraft 4300D work properly is a story by itself.

   The most important part of any engine rebuild is the quality of the machine work. Find a machine shop that does performance work and knows Ford Cleveland engines. A good question to ask is " Do you use a deck plate when boring and honing the block?" If the answer is no or "What's a deck plate?" Keep looking for a real machine shop. If the machine work is not top quality, no amount of money spent on parts will help. Expect to spend more money for quality work. I would find a machine shop before you do anything else so you can get an idea of what the machine work is going to cost. The cost to bring the heads, crank, rods, and block to an acceptable level may surprise you.

   I'm not a fan of "engine rebuild kits". Not even for a bone stock rebuild. The kits are not the optimal combination of parts to yield the best performance and durability. They are designed to be inexpensive to fit a particular market segment. Before you buy any parts you need to know what the final bore size is. What are the final journal sizes on the crank? What is the finish on the bores? What is the finished deck height?

   There are some items that I consider must be replaced and upgraded. Replace all the valves with quality single groove stem valves. At a minimum replace the rod nuts, preferably the bolts as well. Invest in a good multi-slot true roller timing set so what ever cam you buy can be "degreed in".

   There is a lot more to rebuilding an engine properly than many people know. Let us know what you decide to do. Chuck

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I agree with much of what Chuck has to say.

 

It's all up to you which direction you take with your car. In my years of ownership(22) I started using many aftermarket parts, but over the years have been coming back towards original appearing parts. Not 100% original, but enough that the casual onlooker would never know the difference. My engine appears quite stock but makes 400ish flywheel horsepower. 500 is certainly a possibility with a stroker and still be made streetable if you executed it correctly. You could flaunt it or conceal it. Just have a plan and stick to it. Changing directions during a build gets expensive. Do what you want the first time so you don't need to spend more money later doing something again.

Mike

__________________________________

Black 1985 GT

Yellow 1973 Mustang Mach 1

Black 2012 5.0 GT, 6-speed, Brembo brakes, 3.73's

Wimbledon White 1966 F-100 Shortbed Styleside, 390ci, Tremec 3550, FiTech EFI

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That is definitely what I want....to keep the car looking "original" but to have 400-500hp under the hood.  This is my first project car EVER...so this is where I need the most help.  What will it take for me to get this?  What specifications do I need to give to the engine shop that will be working on the block for me, what components do I need to purchase to replace the stock internals, etc.?  Do any of our members have a similar build that they have done on their Q code 351...maybe even a thread with details on the build and components used?  I have many links that I have saved and articles that I have read regarding the 351c 4bbl, but it will be some time until I am anywhere close to being an expert who can answer my own questions so I really do appreciate all the help you guys have provided.

 

:udaman:

Stang Life!

 

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Maybe you should start a new thread explaining your budget and intentions so we can try to see if we can steer you in the right direction to meet your goals. There will likely be several options and opinions put forth. In the end, you will need to decide the path you will take.

Mike

__________________________________

Black 1985 GT

Yellow 1973 Mustang Mach 1

Black 2012 5.0 GT, 6-speed, Brembo brakes, 3.73's

Wimbledon White 1966 F-100 Shortbed Styleside, 390ci, Tremec 3550, FiTech EFI

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I like the way you think.I prefer to do my cars "factory" looking with big power.I tried to keep mine as subtle as I could.Mine appears somewhat original from the outside with the hood down.That all goes out the window when I start it though.Im giving up some power to keep everything below the hood .One thing I would suggest is talk to a custom cam grinder that knows Fords.

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Lots of helpful opinions and advice.

 

Originality adds value, if you were to sell, a more original, unmodified car will have a higher value and appeal to more potential buyers than one that has been modified.

 

That being said, my suggestion would be to honestly decide what you want out of the car, and try and stick to that.

 

I have never been able to do that, which is probably why my car is sitting in a million pieces in the corner of my garage...

Matt

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Lots of helpful opinions and advice.

 

Originality adds value, if you were to sell, a more original, unmodified car will have a higher value and appeal to more potential buyers than one that has been modified.

 

That being said, my suggestion would be to honestly decide what you want out of the car, and try and stick to that.

 

I have never been able to do that, which is probably why my car is sitting in a million pieces in the corner of my garage...

 

I like the idea of having a car that "looks" original but with better performance.  I think when it comes to originality many people are looking at the overall appearance of the interior/exterior and probably wouldn't complain about having a few extra ponies under the hood. 

:wrench:

 

I'm definitely trying to keep the car original as far as the appearance goes.  If not it would be getting painted Grabber Blue with a two tone hood, black aftermarket leather interior with digital gauges, ram air, etc etc etc.

Stang Life!

 

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the 1972 351c 2V that i bought was rated at 177HP when new. After I had the block line honed and bored .04 and had new parts (kept the crank) installed it made 378hp on a dyno and I pulled around 100lbs out from over the front wheels. new wheels are lighter with wider rubber. new brakes stop better. new cooling system runs cooler, new ignition runs smoother with lower fumes, new TC is quicker off the line, new gear set makes engine run in the sweet spot. Unless I opened the hood people saw the 48k miles and swore it was 100% showroom. When I did open the hood nobody ever mocked the CHI alum heads or red MSD ignition box. Unless you have a BOSS 351 time machine a 7173 is never going to be a $50k collector so do whatever you want! except for cragar SS's.....they are for cmaro's.

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Guest Pastel Blue

the 1972 351c 2V that i bought was rated at 177HP when new.  After I had the block line honed and bored .04 and had new parts (kept the crank) installed it made 378hp on a dyno and I pulled around 100lbs out from over the front wheels. new wheels are lighter with wider rubber. new brakes stop better. new cooling system runs cooler, new ignition runs smoother with lower fumes, new TC is quicker off the line, new gear set makes engine run in the sweet spot. Unless I opened the hood people saw the 48k miles and swore it was 100% showroom. When I did open the hood nobody ever mocked the CHI alum heads or red MSD ignition box. Unless you have a BOSS 351 time machine a 7173 is never going to be a $50k collector so do whatever you want! except for cragar SS's.....they are for cmaro's

 

.....

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There's a few engines here in Australia that look very standard looking but making really good power. One in particular is an Arrow block (Australian aftermarket Cleveland block) Scott Cook 4V aluminium heads and one of his dual plane intakes and this engine makes just under 700HP. If not for the Robb Mc fuel pump, bigger fuel lines, headers and Holley it looks like a factory 4V engine as Scott Cooks stuff looks just like factory castings, including the 4 dot on top of the heads and the intakes look identical to the factory 70-71 4V dual plane. He even had the factory distributor modified by IC&E and the box is hidden. Another is a 550 HP one and looks so close to standard, the only thing that sticks out is the Holley carb. It's a cast iron factory 4V headed, one of Scott Cooks dual plane, same modded dizzy and modified the stock fuel pump that has an electric pump pushing fuel through it. Even had a 3/8 steel fuel line made like the original piece and runs modded standard exhaust manifolds. I'm going along similar lines for my engine build as I prefer the standard look under the hood and with the Ram Air will just top it off nicely. Not as much as the other builds, but a true 450-470 HP and torque range makes a very nice all round street combo.

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  • 2 weeks later...

I recently had my engine built on the mild side of what you are looking at. I told my engine builder that my target was 400+/- hp, reliability, and a fairly stock appearance. He built it to 10:1 compression so it will require premium fuel, which I was fine with. He was a very knowledgeable Ford/Mustang engine builder, and helped to recommend peripherals along the way. For now i'm using the stock intake manifold with aftermarket points distributor, 750cfm carb, and headers. I have yet to fire up the car and drive it to even know how it performs, but I'd be happy to share any more information on my engine build as I recently went through the process (this is my first restoration as well.)

 

Unfortunately I no longer have a numbers matching car--my car was purchased by my dad in the late 70's when he was in college, and he immediately swapped the original Q-code for a built 1970 M-code and turned it into a drag racer. The good news is I have closed chamber 4v heads and was able to have my engine built to take advantage of that setup. Even though my engine isn't what the car came with from the factory, I am still interested in a more stock appearance as well. Good luck.

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Find a damn good machine shop.. Some don't know what they're doing and can ruin your project.. IMHO

 

Number one rule before starting any engine build. I've seen some machine work over the years that's left me dumbfounded as to how someone could even do it that badly, let alone let it out of their shop like it and give it to somebody to try and attempt to build it. As the old saying goes, good work ain't cheap and cheap work ain't good, but I've seen exception to that rule especially the last part of that saying.

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