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Vinnie

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Hey folks,

 

There is a lot of discussion on the internet about what "concours" actually means. I am wondering what people here think about it.

 

Should a concours car be close to 100% original parts for that particular car? (So no headers, no other carb/intake and no dual exhaust (for mine anyway)). Can you change the cam?

 

What are the greatest challenges for our cars to make one concours quality?

 

What exactly is the meaning of "numbers matching" and how does that fit in the picture?

 

Cheers,

Vincent.

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The question is more, how to you want to be judged and where.

 

At TMCN, Team Mustang Center Nederland, we've defined a dutch resto "concours" class,

Piet Jaarsma, a dutch mustang importer for years and the club managers at the time, we wanted for our meetings to have a "concours" category.

For that we got contact with the Mustang club of America, and based on their standard we've defined a scale.

 

To the club members who wanted to follow courses, we've spend a year to form judges per mustang years.

While I was (and still am) more a "modified class" person, I was one of the two following the 71-73 courses.

Each week, we've spend one weekend evenings together and looked at the many specs per year, options etc...

We took exams end of that year, each candidate in its respective years. And got myself that nice paper :)

 

In practice, in the morning when cars were arriving, they were parked per years, and for each one entering the concours judges went to work.

At the time i was active as judge, this ment judging 2 or 3 71-73 max. There were simply not many cars of these years. The 64-68 and 69-70 were

much more popular.

Our point system was a sort of a check list. Going thru each items on the list. Checking if the item was the original, a repro matching the original, missing and its state.

Because there were not many 7173 coming and even less entering the concours class. The price was given to the best of the participants, even if the total points

were bellow USA standards for such category.

So as you live in the Netherlands, this is more or less the kind of concours you would enter. If you push a bit more and go to other countries

like France or England, you may get few more challengers but not much more. Pegleg probably can tell you more about english way than I do.

 

Also regarding cam or any parts that are invisible to the eye. They were simply not on the checklist.

Extra points were also available for "era correct details", like an original dealership order or built sheet etc..

 

In the end, its up to you to define how far you push the restoration quality and how near factory state you want to be.

Going thru TMCN, you would be first or second each time, tho you would get tips/remarks after the judgment. So your 3 stories high new garage will be filled with cups in no time :)


73 modified Grande 351C. Almost done. 

71 429CJ. In progress

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I am no expert and have no experience with "Concours" restoration but I have read a bit about it and seen a few examples.

I think the target is to get as close to 'off the assembly line' or 'first day of delivery' as possible. All original parts including hoses, spark plug wires, etc. Assembly line paint and other markings will be visable. An example would be proper paint stripes on the drive shaft. All parts painted in factory colors and typically try to match normal 'overspray'. Of course assembly and paint was done by hand so no two cars were ever the same but there are acceptable/expected levels of overspray in some areas. All stickers must be in the correct locations.

 

Fanatics will try to find batteries and tires from the appropriate year. The battery might not even have anything inside but it is original. They won't drive it on the old tires, they are for show.

 

And many of the high point concours cars do not get driven. They are towed on a trailer.

 

As Fabrice explained different clubs have different criteria and points process.

Obviously rust or visable rust repair will deduct points. Options on the car have to match what was available for that model. A rear spoiler on a coupe would have points deducted for example.

 

My understanding is 'dealer installed' options are treated differently depending on the option and the club rules.

 

I would imagine a low milage original paint car would be the best starting point for a concurs restoration. Getting to a near perfect car is difficult and expensive. People will pay crazy money for very hard to find original parts, especially the 'throw away' parts like the tie downs used for original shipment, rare carbs, etc.

 

I do not know if additional points are given to more rare cars or not.

 

'Numbers Matching' is another interesting area. Some cars have the VIN stamped on the engine and transmission. Others have part of the VIN, like the last 6 numbers stamped. I don't believe our Mustangs do. But there are numbers cast into vairous parts and most include a date code. So to be correct you wouldn't put a engnie with a 73 date code into a 71 mustang. There are a couple of folks here who are doing some close to concurs restorations and they can provide much more detail.


'Mike'

73 Convertible - 351C/4V CC heads/4bolt/forged flat tops/comp 270/rhodes/mallory unilite/tri-power/hookers/glasspacks/c6/3.50 limited slip/Gear Vendors/Global West sub frames, strut rods and shelby style traction bars/ Rear sway bar/tilt steering (not original)

 

Pics of modifications included in: [button=http://www.7173mustangs.com/thread-1973-convertible--3335]My Garage[/button]

 

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The question is more, how to you want to be judged and where.

 

At TMCN, Team Mustang Center Nederland, we've defined a dutch resto "concours" class,

Piet Jaarsma, a dutch mustang importer for years and the club managers at the time, we wanted for our meetings to have a "concours" category.

For that we got contact with the Mustang club of America, and based on their standard we've defined a scale.

 

To the club members who wanted to follow courses, we've spend a year to form judges per mustang years.

While I was (and still am) more a "modified class" person, I was one of the two following the 71-73 courses.

Each week, we've spend one weekend evenings together and looked at the many specs per year, options etc...

We took exams end of that year, each candidate in its respective years. And got myself that nice paper :)

 

In practice, in the morning when cars were arriving, they were parked per years, and for each one entering the concours judges went to work.

At the time i was active as judge, this ment judging 2 or 3 71-73 max. There were simply not many cars of these years. The 64-68 and 69-70 were

much more popular.

Our point system was a sort of a check list. Going thru each items on the list. Checking if the item was the original, a repro matching the original, missing and its state.

Because there were not many 7173 coming and even less entering the concours class. The price was given to the best of the participants, even if the total points

were bellow USA standards for such category.

So as you live in the Netherlands, this is more or less the kind of concours you would enter. If you push a bit more and go to other countries

like France or England, you may get few more challengers but not much more. Pegleg probably can tell you more about english way than I do.

 

Also regarding cam or any parts that are invisible to the eye. They were simply not on the checklist.

Extra points were also available for "era correct details", like an original dealership order or built sheet etc..

 

In the end, its up to you to define how far you push the restoration quality and how near factory state you want to be.

Going thru TMCN, you would be first or second each time, tho you would get tips/remarks after the judgment. So your 3 stories high new garage will be filled with cups in no time :)

 

Thanks for the input Fabrice! Interesting to read how things work in the Netherlands. I have similar plans with my car.Sort of 'concours' level but not a trailer queen. I am planning to stick to the marti report....

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On the numbers matching. That refers to the original engine, transmission and body being together. All 71 - 73 has the VIN# stamped in the dash tag and each inner fender beside the shock tower underneath the fender. There is also a partial VIN stamped on the engine block. It is located on the Right Rear just below the head and will be all crooked not in a straight line. The transmission, manual or automatic has the VIN # stamped in it also. The rear has a tag but does not have the VIN # applied.

If you have an engine block without a VIN# it was a replacement sold across the counter at a Ford dealer. Just not having a matching numbers car can devalue it by 50% in the eyes of a true collector.

 

I myself quit going to MCA shows and dropped membership because I personally know they wrote the rules to match some of the old members cars even though they were not Ford original.

Back in the 80's if I were to show my 73 Mach 1 that I bought new and ordered they would deduct points because it had dealer applied undercoating. I even had the order form that shows the undercoating as a paid option but they would not accept that. The undercoating was done while Ford still owned the vehicle but that was not accepted either.

Concours is how some group sees the car to be correct and will never all be the same everywhere.

You have to be in the Click to win at the Concours shows. Sad to say but true.

I have a friend that won the Pontiac Nationals one year with over 800 vehicles in the show. He had two deductions, one was for radial tires and the other for a non factory Interstate battery. The remainder of the car was judged to be 100% correct. That was the first time the car was shown.

One little chip in the paint, one wrong stitch in the upholstery and you get a deduct. Depends on the group that does the judging.

All cars have many flaws coming from the factory then and now and what you see at the shows is not the way they came from the factory. They are much better today but if you know where to look you can still find flaws.


When a man is in the woods and talks and no women are there is he still wrong??:P

David

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@JD79 the idea was to make the meetings not only cozy, but also a way to elevate the club cars quality and guide our members for the restoration and maintenance of their Mustangs.

All the mustangs came by road, +-100 each meetings. Only 1 or 2 per trailer, and these were dragsters (from Voorend autoparts if you know them)

 

" I have similar plans with my car.Sort of 'concours' level but not a trailer queen. I am planning to stick to the marti report...."

This sounds like a good plan to me. Putting a perfectly operating car on a trailer, drive low speed to go to the event and back doesn't compute for me,

especially when its the only mustang you own :)


73 modified Grande 351C. Almost done. 

71 429CJ. In progress

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I can appreicate attempts to put together a concurs car. Although I probably don't really appreciate the amount of effort. I think it is great that people try to preserve and show what they looked like 40 and 50 years ago. It's too bad there are 'politics' involved with the judging but any time you have people involved in a process that will happen.

 

I think it looks cool when you lift the hood and it looks original, even if it is full reproduction parts. I also like the highly modified examples. Well, heck, I guess I like them all. I even think it is cool when I see an original 6 cyl in one of our ponies.


'Mike'

73 Convertible - 351C/4V CC heads/4bolt/forged flat tops/comp 270/rhodes/mallory unilite/tri-power/hookers/glasspacks/c6/3.50 limited slip/Gear Vendors/Global West sub frames, strut rods and shelby style traction bars/ Rear sway bar/tilt steering (not original)

 

Pics of modifications included in: [button=http://www.7173mustangs.com/thread-1973-convertible--3335]My Garage[/button]

 

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First off let me say that its is your car and you should finish and show it like you want.  MCA specifies in their judging sheets what qualifies for concourse and modified. If you enter in an MCA show you will typically be classified at the time you arrive to the show.  I will attach the 71-73 judging rules to this email.  These are the 2016 version as MCA has not modified our years for 2017.  I have shown at 2 MCA nationals this past 2 years and will also be going to the Grand National in Kansas City at the end of August.  Judges do not check for part numbers nor vin numbers on the drivelines.  What they emphasize most is correct for the way it rolled off the assembly line and everything matches the vin as decoded to the car and the cleanliness of its presentation.

 

In my case I do not have a matching #'s engine. It is date correct to the month and year that mine should have been produced. I do have the original transmission and rear end.  Regarding the original question of headers, intake, carb and exhaust.  Changes to any of these items from its original production would be considered modifications and be scored off from judging its originality.  If you are OK knowing these will be deductions and accept it will affect your final score do what you would like, just know that these deductions will affect your final award level.

 

MCA Mustang Rules 71-73.2016.pdf


BKDunha

72 Mach 1 H-Code (Concourse driven restoration)

67 S-Code Factory GT with 4-Spd

68 Mercury Cyclone (Pro-Street project)

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Thanks for sharing the MCA info! After spending a fortune on prepping the car for a repaint it must be a difficult decision to finish the paint in orange peel! I am a perfectionist with certain things so I am not sure if I could live with an orange peel finish ;-)

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it must be a difficult decision to finish the paint in orange peel!

 

ahahaha, yeah its crazy to try to match how Ford fu...ed up finishes to catch production demands.

 

In same spirit, I recall once judge a red 72 vert that had been fully "originally" restored here in Holland

by some really qualified pros. Had good laugh together with the owner, about removing points for his doors,

they were so well adjusted, seals and rubbers so well placed, that they were closing like a german. pof!

This was of course wrong as they should have done that metallic sound... :)


73 modified Grande 351C. Almost done. 

71 429CJ. In progress

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I must admit I have what would be considered less than original orange peel in my paint. If you are going for Thoroughbred it would be judged more critically. It has been a notation on both of my judging sheets but no points deducted. Assistant National Head Judge for 71-73 Johnnie Garner has judged my car at both MCA shows. Johnnie is a great guy and great to talk with after he has judged the car. Look the rules over and decide for yourself which path you want to take. I will say this is my first concourse car and for the time being will be my only one. It is a real passion to get a car to this level. Maybe after I retire from my career I will tackle another, but not in the near future.


BKDunha

72 Mach 1 H-Code (Concourse driven restoration)

67 S-Code Factory GT with 4-Spd

68 Mercury Cyclone (Pro-Street project)

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BKDUNHA has been a inspiration and brilliant sounding board. Realisticaly living here in the UK its tough getting the parts you need. I have purchased parts that are original as well as reproduction parts. I would rather install repro part that looks shiney and new than a imperfect original part. Some parts i bought used like a original carb from a member on this forum. I had it glass bead blasted and it looks like new. The last owner reversed over something and dented the backplate. He had a go at elding but it leaked and looked diabolical. I had the axle stripped out and welded again (will post pics soon). In my opinion the new weld looks better than Ford would have done. If i got deductions for that i wouldnt mind. When i get the car sprsyed there will be no orange peel. Points lost but happy to loose points for a 21st century paint job. As BKdunha said on a couple of occasions. Its your car and you restore it however makes you happy. I reckon when my grabber lime paint goes on and the white vinyl roof i will get mistaken for a pimp lol


Steve

1971 Grande

 

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I restore my cars to MMH specs. (makes me happy!)


73 Grande H Code. Headman long tube headers, T-5 Transmission, 3.70 Traclok, Lowered 1" all around, Aussie 2v heads w/ 2.19 intake, 1.71 exhaust, screw in studs, full roller cam 608/612 lift 280/281 duration LSA 112, Quick Fuel 750 CFM double pumper, AirGap intake.

 

- Jason

 

 

082-hot-rod-power-tour-2017-1970-1970s.jpg

 

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We talk about the paint a lot on the forum. The only real info I have seen on the paint is located in the Ford Facts Book. Scanned copies are on the Forum this is 1971. https://www.7173mustangs.com/attachment.php?aid=11017

They say they used " zinc rich primer" in rust prone areas like inside doors and under the car. During the wash process the body did get a dip in phosphate. The primer is stated as being Epoxy with two coats with wet sanding between coats. Then there were three coats of color and the last was electrostatic application. The paint did have lots of orange peel and the metallic colors had issue with the metallic sagging. The Black paint under the hood was really bumpy and had runs.

The only time I went to a MCA national in Atlanta I was placed in an un restored class. I did get a third place. They deducted points because I had the battery unhooked so the under hood lights trunk light and interior lights did not drain the battery. It was the original battery also. They sent me a long list of things that I would have to change on the car to do any better. The car had 12,000 one owner miles on it and I was original owner. Nothing was changed. That is the reason I just drove it into the barn, poured oil down the carb and it has sat there for 35 years. They said lots of the bolts were incorrect and would have to be changed. That is why I never went back the politics to do any good were not in my blood. It is somewhat of a communist point of view. I has to be only one way to be right. NOT in automotive production especially on model run out late in the year. You get what they have to put on the car.


When a man is in the woods and talks and no women are there is he still wrong??:P

David

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@David

So basically now you own a time capsule that will smoke a lot next time you start it..

What is the car state now?


73 modified Grande 351C. Almost done. 

71 429CJ. In progress

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First off let me say that its is your car and you should finish and show it like you want.  MCA specifies in their judging sheets what qualifies for concourse and modified. If you enter in an MCA show you will typically be classified at the time you arrive to the show.  I will attach the 71-73 judging rules to this email.  These are the 2016 version as MCA has not modified our years for 2017.  I have shown at 2 MCA nationals this past 2 years and will also be going to the Grand National in Kansas City at the end of August.  Judges do not check for part numbers nor vin numbers on the drivelines.  What they emphasize most is correct for the way it rolled off the assembly line and everything matches the vin as decoded to the car and the cleanliness of its presentation.

 

In my case I do not have a matching #'s engine. It is date correct to the month and year that mine should have been produced. I do have the original transmission and rear end.  Regarding the original question of headers, intake, carb and exhaust.  Changes to any of these items from its original production would be considered modifications and be scored off from judging its originality.  If you are OK knowing these will be deductions and accept it will affect your final score do what you would like, just know that these deductions will affect your final award level.

 

 

Having been awarded a silver in the trailered concourse class at a MCA National show (1969-70 Trailed Closed) and a first in the 71-73 daily driven class in a MCA National show., I would have to agree with bkdunha's post. The class you decide to enter has a lot to do with the rules applied. Most of us drive our cars and the occasional and daily driven classes rules take that fact into consideration, so undercoating and radials are not point deductions. The street driven and trailered concourse classes trailered are judged against more stringent criteria i.e no undercoating in the trailered class, but it's ok in the driven class. Its when you get to the thoroughbred class where you can't have service replacement parts or incorrect date coded parts on your car, or points are deducted because the car has a combination of factory delivered markings and tags (prior to dealer prep) and markings or the lack thereof as it had been dealer prep'd. That's where it gets crazy (in my opinion). The unrestored class is an another animal all to itself.

 

Build your car the way you want it and go show it off. The satisfaction is in restoring/modifying the car to the level you set for yourself when you started.


1973 H Code Convertible - Medium Copper Metallic - June 8, 1973, Built Ford Marketing Sales Vehicle

DSC_0266xsm.jpg

satellite.png Proud Space Junk Award Winner!

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

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Rackerm, Thanks for sharing I had no idea there were so many different classes to compete in. So back to Vinnie's question 'What is the definition of Concurs' the answer is 'it depends'.


'Mike'

73 Convertible - 351C/4V CC heads/4bolt/forged flat tops/comp 270/rhodes/mallory unilite/tri-power/hookers/glasspacks/c6/3.50 limited slip/Gear Vendors/Global West sub frames, strut rods and shelby style traction bars/ Rear sway bar/tilt steering (not original)

 

Pics of modifications included in: [button=http://www.7173mustangs.com/thread-1973-convertible--3335]My Garage[/button]

 

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Here are all the MCA Classes...including modified classes. Also, There is a MCA National Show Scoring document which summarizes the scoring process.

 

 

7_11_2017_1_52_51_PM.jpg

 

7_11_2017_2_16_01_PM.jpg

7_11_2017_2_25_00_PM.jpg

 

upload photo temporary

 

 

 

upload upload


1973 H Code Convertible - Medium Copper Metallic - June 8, 1973, Built Ford Marketing Sales Vehicle

DSC_0266xsm.jpg

satellite.png Proud Space Junk Award Winner!

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

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Those different classes got me scratching my head. Surely there should be consistency in the way 71-73 are judged. Some classes the 71-73 are judged by these years in a stand alone and other classes 71-73 are lumped in a 1964 1/2-1973 group. Wheres the logic


Steve

1971 Grande

 

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Wow! That's a lot of very useful info and opinions, thanks everybody! I wasn't aware there were so many classes, I'll have to study those. At this point I'm not sure what to do. Money is a big part of the equation so I have to figure out how to get the most out of my bucks. I guess I can start with some basic VIN checks as I really don't want to buy another engine.

 

Thanks again for all your info and opinions, much appreciated!

 

Vincent.

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Those different classes got me scratching my head. Surely there should be consistency in the way 71-73 are judged. Some classes the 71-73 are judged by these years in a stand alone and other classes 71-73 are lumped in a 1964 1/2-1973 group. Wheres the logic

 

Pegleg,

 

I think the difference (logic) is between the concourse classes where the cars are judged on "authenticity" vs modified. Modified is where the years are lumped together, maybe because of fewer numbers of cars in those classes.


1973 H Code Convertible - Medium Copper Metallic - June 8, 1973, Built Ford Marketing Sales Vehicle

DSC_0266xsm.jpg

satellite.png Proud Space Junk Award Winner!

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

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I have a '71 Mach 1, and people will ask me if it's modified. I have to catch myself, in that, I've heard me tell them it's as original.......when actually I really mean to say it's "stock".  Original? No.  Well, for starters, I've had it re-painted twice, albeit it's the original color that it came wearing from the factory, but re-painted. I've owned it for so many years, by now, I've replaced most all of the suspension, re-built the rear end, re-built the engine, the trans, put three interior kits in it, and so on, and so on. There's no aftermarket guages, engine components, stereo, or custom wheels. In the course of usual maintenance, I've used restorer replacement parts that anyone could buy to fix their car. But, as far as it being like it was when new, yes it is.  Still, it would likely not place in a show, but who cares?

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Up to this point, there has been a good discussion on members understanding / view points on the MCA Concours class.  However keep in mind that there is actually an addition class to consider, i.e. Thoroughbred class.  This is a very tough class.  MCA definition as such:

"The Thoroughbred Class is designated for the restored or unrestored cars that are restored or original with the correct era parts, for example, fan belts, battery, exhaust systems, etc. Absolutely no reproduction parts, approved or unapproved, are allowed. This class is designed for the true purist who wants nothing but those hard-to-find original parts."

As far as 71 - 73 cars being placed in with other years.  Yes and no.  The cars entered in the 71 - 73 concours class are never combined with other years as the items listed on the judging 71 - 73 sheet is very specific for these years.  The modified class has a completely different set of judging sheets, more generic if you will, if I will inject my 2 cents, this class is more on fit, finish and workmanship, therefore it is possible to place multi years together.  

The 71 - 73 cars are few in number at most MCA shows.  I personally have had at times only one car in the concours class to judge.  

 

Mac

MCA 71 -73 Gold Card Judge

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I have a concours driven car. I finished it over 8 years ago and it has less than a thousands miles on it since completion. If you want to drive the car I'd suggest skipping the concours route. I've built several cars over the years and this one is my first and last concours effort. I spent way too much time researching fasteners, finishes, date stamps, and other small details to be fun. The car did receive gold and I was happy about that. When I do drive it, I enjoy it as it has a lot of get up and go (judges can't see what is inside the engine). Decide how you want to use the car, your skill level, your budget, and let that guide your restoration plans would be my advice. Chuck

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