Jump to content

The dreaded "While I'm at it" Engine pull?


Recommended Posts

I have the dash about ready to go back in so the car will be running again soon but I am thinking about pulling the engine to do some freshening up and detailing of engine bay and under carriage.  I already know I have to pull the passenger side head and replace the head gasket as well as put a new water pump on it.  The previous owner said it had a rebuild about 3 years ago before he sold it to me a year ago.  The car sat more than it was driven.  So here is what I am thinking.  Tell me what you all think.

 

 

  • pull motor
  • Pull heads and do some exhaust side gasket matching and overall smoothing of the chambers.
  • take heads to machine shop for cleaning and valve job 
  • Machine for adjustable valve train?
  • Pull pan and replace oil pump with high volume pump since I don't know what is in there now or if it really was rebuilt
  • Install oil restriction kit?
  • Replace cam, lifters, timing chain.  Was planning on doing this anyway per my earlier post
  • Paint engine with Eastwood  ceramic ford blue
  • Clean and paint engine bay.
  • Change gear oil in 4 speed.

 

 

Engine does not knock and appears strong. With the exception of what appears to be a bad head gasket I think the overall health of the motor is good.  I dont see any reason to tear down the short block for new bearings and rings.  If I start to go that far I might as well do the head gasket in the car and wait till I can afford to build the 460 I have into a stroker.

 

Suggestions\Opinions?

 

Thanks

Wade

Thanks!

Wade

1972 Mach 1 351 cj 4speed

"We confide in our strength, without boasting of it; we respect that of others, without fearing it."--Thomas Jefferson

 

 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

It really doesn't take long to pull the engine, and it is so much easier to work on, especially when removing and installing the intake manifold and heads. If you don't have a couple of helpers use your engine hoist to help you remove the hood. It's easier to pull the engine and transmission together than removing/installing the transmission from under the car. You can change the camshaft with the engine in the car, but not the cam bearings. One problem with an engine sitting for long periods of time is condensation and pitting of bearings.

  • Like 1

 

 

“If you can't explain it simply, you don't understand it well enough.”

--Albert Einstein

 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Yeah, I fall into that "while I am at it" rut all the time...

 

Went back to working on Mustang while waiting for Explorer 5.0 roller cam short block to come back from machine shop for installation in an MG along with the T5 I bought long ago for the Mustang. 

 

Explorer motor looked so good inside, I kind of regret taking it apart.. But, the while I am at it thing took control and it will end up being a new motor with aluminum heads and will sell the GT40p heads that were on it. Want the lower weight to suit MG suspension.. But, being motor is apart anyway, might as well put new pistons, cam, rings, bearings, etc, etc, etc..

 

Got my 73 Mustang sports roof in trade more than 10 years ago as a running 351c 2v with a broken C6. Initial plan was to just fix leaking rear main and stick in a T5 and drive it. 

 

Pretty solid southern (GA?) car, but had some trunk water intrusion causing rust on tail light panel below taillights and a few spots on the trunk floor and some small amount of rust inside trunk lid lower edge. All from bad trunk gasket, I believe..

 

I've fixed a lot worse trunk floors and deck lids, but repro parts are cheap so why not just install full new trunk floor while I am at it, instead of multiple small patches?   Hmm.. One piece floor install requires tail light panel removal, so if doing that might as well just replace tail panel too... 

 

And repop trunk lids are relatively cheap too, so why not make a clean sweep of all rusted panels at the same time (floor is in, tail panel tacked in place not fully welded pending new rear bumper test fit, new trunk lid still in the box...).

 

While reading forums years ago, I learned about the cowl rust problem and so while motor is out better check that out, right? Wasn't actually very rusty compared to most, but a real labor intensive job to deal with. But it had a small rusted area at the bottom, so still required fixing.

 

And I also had an already rebuilt 460 with forged pistons and Dove heads, Weiand Stealth intake sitting on an engine stand. Once I pulled the 351c to do the rear seal, it just kind of snowballed from there. Had a CJ big spline Toploader too, though it needed a rebuild at the time.

 

Since the 460 was overkill for the project it had been built for anyway (57 Ford) and would fit right in the Mustang, why not just install that since it bolts right in and just get another (3rd) motor built for the other project. (I did build the 3rd motor for the other car, but that's another long story..).

 

Being the Mustang was now going to be a stick, had to hunt down all the clutch parts besides rebuilding the Toploader. And being it would have some serious power, it probably should really have a tach and full Mach gauges displays right.?

 

That was when I learned the wiring harness was different and spent more time hunting down wiring harness and gauges and still not sure I got all that done right. Should know soon..

 

Once Toploader was in, probably a console would be appropriate too, no? More hunting and fiddling around.  Of course, the automatic rear end was too high geared for the stick, so out comes the rear end for a lower ratio unit.

 

Wasn't sure how good the floors were (they were pretty good), so (while I am at it..) might as well put in some sound deadener since the interior had come out to really look over floors anyway, right?

 

And being I had to pull headliner to put sound deadener there too, decided to change interior color while at it... Getting way beyond the "put in a rear seal and T5 and drive it"..   

 

Oop.., also have to pull back glass to install headliner in these cars... New back glass gasket and a spare back glass (just in case..) salvaged from roached junkyard Mach that I took the dash wiring harness from..

 

Since it is a fastback but a plain-Jane, why not add the Mach front and rear spoilers?  Put them on temporarily and car looked so much better to me.  Bet a NASA hood would even make it better compared to the perfectly good flat hood that was on it.

 

Actually bought 3 hoods and the best one has the chrome front lock holes, but no locks.  Buy some more parts, of course.. New set of locks and brackets still in box waiting for hood alignment resolution.

 

But, what good is Ram Air really if it doesn't function?  Got repro parts to do that still in boxes also waiting resolution of hood alignment. Mailman, UPS, FedEx here almost every day the past couple of weeks. (I know it won't fit with high Stealth intake, but I have a plan...).

 

Door hinges were real bad and had to lift doors to shut them, so off come fenders and doors. Get those all fixed, doors and fenders cleaned inside and coated with Eastwood rust killer -while I was at it.

 

Spent a lot of time aligning doors and fenders, but both of NASA hoods fitted have a rise in the middle near fenders and don't line up good enough (still working on that..). Flat hood fit fine, so appears to be a thing with NASA hoods..

 

Had to clean up engine compartment to install fresh new motor of course, and if doing all that work anyway, might as well replace master cylinder and booster since engine is a tight fit and don't want to deal with booster issues after it is already running with tall SVO aluminum valve covers on it.

 

After motor is finally in, yep... Front of car sits too low with the 351c coils.  Bought some 429 springs ten years ago and finally put them in two days ago. 

 

But, if I am going to tear the front end apart for installing coils, better do all the ball joints and bushings right?  Opted to just replace all the A arms and since those were off, replaced the tie rod ends as well, though they weren't too bad.

 

Shocks looked fairly new, but really soft.  So decided I better replace those too... Sloppy idler arm already replaced when engine compartment was cleaned up and strut rod bushings come with A arm kit, so had to install those obviously. 

 

Fun getting the stock strut rod bushings out with the one piece inner steel sleeve, but nothing was rusty anyway, not one broken bolt anywhere and interior of shock towers looked great too..

 

Although brakes worked when I got the car, don't want to chance problems with brakes after sitting so long and being caliper rubber slider sleeves were obviously shot and probably sticking causing rotor and pad wear to be uneven side to side. 

 

New rotors now too... Can't just go with old wheel bearings, since all the other new front parts already and those old one's had to come out to replace rotors anyway.  And the original rubber brake lines did not look bad, but they are 44 years old.  Can't risk leaving those in..

 

Multi-part Calipers need new hardware kit, of course... And can't put on all these new parts without painting any raw metal so they don't rust up.. Rotor centers and perimeter should probably be painted, so they don't rust too.  

 

Sway bar already replaced with 429 unit and aftermarket bushings and end links, so didn't have to clean and paint that part now anyway.  But, many hours spent cleaning up parts like strut rods, masking, painting, etc.

 

Lucky I took calipers and rubber lines off, black and brownish brake fluid in lines, gotta flush those before installing new hoses, which is the point I am at finally after days of working on it (retired, so cars now full time hobby..)

 

Can't remember if I did rear brakes when I installed the lower ratio differential, so at minimum I probably have to pull rear drums and look and see how everything looks back there and since fluid looked sketchy in front lines when I cut them off, it may in the rear also..

 

But, "while I am at it",  maybe I should steal the 9" rebuilt posi from my Fairlane project since the Mustang rear end will be partially taken down and the car on stands in rear anyway...

 

Maybe shoulda stuck with the original plan, but spending so much time with the car my wife visits me in the garage to see if I am here.  And can't really slack off now, since it has come this far after so many "while I am at it's"..

 

But, probably will just drive the Mustang in the spring and worry about painting it next winter.. Gotta assemble the MG 5.0 motor soon, and while I am at it, maybe I should narrow and install Turbo Coupe posi rear sitting out in the axle pile..  :D

 

Mike

Link to comment
Share on other sites

i am with the "while i'm at it" thought process... u have or are doing a bunch of work on car and with engine out do it all... your not talking a lot of money to replace the bearings and rings.. what u WILL know is the engine is in good shape and NOT relaying on anyone else's opinion of ya i did this. if something happens to the motor because u didn't do something u WILL be kicking yourself.. u gotta pull the engine again... oh and replace the oil pump shaft too..

for me i just keep thinking back 5 yrs ago when i got the '66 fairlane off ebay and the seller said it was restored a few yrs ago... can u spell 'LIAR" .. and he owned a auto repair shop so i figured he knew what he was talking about... bottom line, it's your call...

Link to comment
Share on other sites

In my pile of 'while it is out' engine parts I have a Canton extra capacity oil pan. You might do this. Tap it for an oil temp sender too, just in case you decide you want the extra gauge.

If it's a Cleveland you might want to replace the front engine cover too.

Also, motor mounts.

'Mike'

73 Convertible - 351C/4V CC heads/4bolt/forged flat tops/comp 270/rhodes/mallory unilite/tri-power/hookers/glasspacks/c6/3.50 limited slip/Gear Vendors/Global West sub frames, strut rods and shelby style traction bars/ Rear sway bar/tilt steering (not original)

 

Pics of modifications included in: [button=http://www.7173mustangs.com/thread-1973-convertible--3335]My Garage[/button]

 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Thanks all!!!!

 

Mike all I can say is DAMN!!!!   rofl ::thumb::

 

Wade

Thanks!

Wade

1972 Mach 1 351 cj 4speed

"We confide in our strength, without boasting of it; we respect that of others, without fearing it."--Thomas Jefferson

 

 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

IMHO, BEWARE of the High Volume oil pump trap. It's not necessary on a stock engine. The addition of a high volume oil pump on my engine when it was rebuilt professionally caused the shop to do a warranty rebuild a couple of years later. Too much flow took out the first lobes of the cam as well as the main bearings. Basically it did a lot of damage to an engine that was NOT built for the higher volume. A stock pump will give plenty of pressure and flow in a stock engine without mods to the system. Again something that was not done and apparently needs to be done one any new pump, is to set the pressure spring. I am NOT sure of the facts here so get proper help on that subject.

Also, I took advantage of the "while I'm at it" situation and totally redid my engine bay utilizing a "Stock Appearing" theme. There are several posts on engine bay detailing for your information and help. Mine is pictured below.

Good luck with your engine and project. Seems like you have a pretty good plan going.

Geoff.

Geoff.

 I learn something new every day!

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I also can vouch that a high volume pump is a bad thing is a stock rebuild. It caused me a ton of headaches with distributor gears and snapping the drive pin on more than one occasion. I installed a standard oil pump and all the problems went away and the oil pressure was darn near identical.

Mike

__________________________________

Black 1985 GT

Yellow 1973 Mustang Mach 1

Black 2012 5.0 GT, 6-speed, Brembo brakes, 3.73's

Wimbledon White 1966 F-100 Shortbed Styleside, 390ci, Tremec 3550, FiTech EFI

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I also can vouch that a high volume pump is a bad thing is a stock rebuild.  It caused me a ton of headaches with distributor gears and snapping the drive pin on more than one occasion.  I installed a standard oil pump and all the problems went away and the oil pressure was darn near identical.

 

 Yes indeed. I have also heard of those probs with HVOP's. As you say the pressures are about the same. It's the volume that just squirts by the critical stuff like the distributor gear and 1st cam bearings.

Just one more thought that came to mind on the first cam bearing. There is a critical depth for this bearing to be set in the block. My Ford manual states it to be .005" MAX from the block surface. There is a BIG oil hole at the bottom and needs to be covered by the bearing or there won't be sufficient oil to the gear.

Geoff.

 I learn something new every day!

Link to comment
Share on other sites

If it was mine, I too would be worried (maybe needlessly..) about quality of the build done way back when and the possibility of moisture damage to internals due to bad head gasket. Sitting for long periods seems to induce premature failure in water pumps and fuel pumps too.

 

Why did head gasket fail? That doesn't typically happen on these older iron motors unless poor/warped surfaces or a poor job installing the gaskets. Symptom, or cause? If not installed right or a sub-par gasket, what does that say about the quality and thoroughness of the rest of the rebuild, like attention to bearing tolerances and the like?

 

Even with my overkill predisposition in mind, I would still probably be really tempted to pull the motor and at least inspect the bearings and cylinders as well as close examination of head and deck surfaces to see if it was apparent why the head gasket failed.  

 

But, start with the bad side only and depending on what, If anything you find there, then decide whether to go further in disassembly.

 

Otherwise you may end up with a complete new rebuild, since if you have both heads off, do you really want to run two piece stock valves known to drop heads in hard use, or replace them with one piece stainless valves? Resurface heads? Make sure springs are adequate for cam intended. Valve job.. Guides, seals, etc... Now your heads are all good, but you have just rebuilt them completely.

 

Going to stick them on a short block of unknown condition at this stage? Probably not... At least I wouldn't when I had gone that far already.

 

Stock oil pump is fine in most cars, hardened oil pump driveshaft always a good idea. Of course then you need to clean up engine compartment and inspect other components more easily serviced while engine is out and that may bring other issues up that you want to address at that stage. Always does for me..

 

I built an engine run stand, complete with full set of gauges and tach, radiator, etc, so I could test motors by running and observing oil pressure, vacuum, tendency to heat, find any leaks or flaws before installing the motor in a car. (Knowing if I even have to replace thermostat, an unknown condition engine will most likely end up rebuilt...). ?

 

While I was on the engine stand project, of course I had to to make the stand capable of handling Ford, GM and Mopar engines as well as all the gauges, electronics being easily removable and of being able to run with just a bellhousing, or even with a transmission attached. And it had to be mobile and extremely durable, which required 7" steel casters...

 

On and on it went.. Has a $200 1992 351W on it currently that I managed not to tear apart, except for swapping rear drop pan for front drop pan and oil pickup to suit early Ford chassis

 

But, if you don't go crazy on building a stand like I did, you could probably set up just gauges and a radiator and accomplish the same thing to allow you to run your motor with just head gasket replaced, if that's all it needs.

 

With radiator and gauges and some scrap pile mufflers rigged up with flex pipe (neighbors...), you can run it as long as you want and easily do any compression or cylinder leak down tests, observe oil pressure and temp readings and correct any deficiencies noted before putting it back in the car, and only do that when its tested truly good to go in.

 

If you get into the short block and decide on restricting oil (getting in deep again now..), you can get oil restricting cam bearings from Tim Meyers that do exactly that and which feed the oil to the loaded side of cam journals.  

 

You can also get thicker wall pushrods that are stronger and have smaller oil passages that keep excess oil from top end too.  Not necessary to do the oil restriction mod's for a street car, but if you plan on sustained high rpm blasts at some point, then probably needed. Less machining costs using Meyers cam bearings and oil restricting pushrods, but more parts cost..

 

Have all those stainless valves, new springs, guides, seats, seals, oil restricting cam bearings and oil restricting pushrods in a previously rebuilt (by PO but left sitting for years) - which is now again rebuilt - 351C on engine stand in my other garage that I took apart to "inspect".  

 

On "inspection" found some cheap parts (timing set) and "new" rings were sticking in piston lands from dry corrosion, so off to machine shop it went... Since it was already apart anyway and had an investment in the heads by then anyway.. ?

 

So, you might want to think about the engine run/test stand concept, unless you really want to rebuild the whole engine again.. But even if you do rebuild the engine, test stand still can be used for cam run-in, etc..

 

Mike

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Regarding the HVOP, my old time engine builder removed mine and replaced it with a stock one for the reasons mentioned.

'Mike'

73 Convertible - 351C/4V CC heads/4bolt/forged flat tops/comp 270/rhodes/mallory unilite/tri-power/hookers/glasspacks/c6/3.50 limited slip/Gear Vendors/Global West sub frames, strut rods and shelby style traction bars/ Rear sway bar/tilt steering (not original)

 

Pics of modifications included in: [button=http://www.7173mustangs.com/thread-1973-convertible--3335]My Garage[/button]

 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

IMHO, BEWARE of the High Volume oil pump trap. It's not necessary on a stock engine. The addition of a high volume oil pump on my engine when it was rebuilt professionally caused the shop to do a warranty rebuild a couple of years later. Too much flow took out the first lobes of the cam as well as the main bearings. Basically it did a lot of damage to an engine that was NOT built for the higher volume. A stock pump will give plenty of pressure and flow in a stock engine without mods to the system. Again something that was not done and apparently needs to be done one any new pump, is to set the pressure spring. I am NOT sure of the facts here so get proper help on that subject.

Also, I took advantage of the "while I'm at it" situation and totally redid my engine bay utilizing a "Stock Appearing" theme. There are several posts on engine bay detailing for your information and help. Mine is pictured below.

Good luck with your engine and project. Seems like you have a pretty good plan going.

Geoff.

 

Geoff,

 

How did you paint your engine bay and what paint did you use?  It looks way too good to be a rattle can job?  Brush? HVLP gun?

 

Did you strip the surface and sand it?

 

Looks awesome!!! ::thumb::

 

Wade

Thanks!

Wade

1972 Mach 1 351 cj 4speed

"We confide in our strength, without boasting of it; we respect that of others, without fearing it."--Thomas Jefferson

 

 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

If you are considering a Thumper series cam from comp, I have one with probably 1500 miles on it that I would give you for free. It is a hydraulic roller setup. So you would need new lifters and springs to match and also pushrods. I pulled it out because they are very hard to tune for street driving. It ran great, but idle was VERY rough and I could never get my Quick Fuel carb dialed in just right. So I went with a BIGGER cam. lol! But I still have the BIG Mutha Thumper cam if you want it.

Kevin
1971 Mach 1

408C Stroker - C4 w/3,000 stall - 8.8" Rear w/3.73's - Disc brakes all way around.

 

 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Wade, Glad you like my engine bay detailing. I did a post back on 11/08/16, Engine Bay Detailing- 71 Mach 1, in Chassis body and paint section. Sorry, but I have no idea how to link it here,  zero computer skills!!

In a nut shell, I first did the bay in 2012 , but I later had a battery boil over, failed voltage reg. and after a baking soda bath, there was a whitish film left behind that looked really bad. In 2015, my engine had to be redone thanks to a HVOP. so I took the opportunity to redo the bay. ( HVOP are ok if your engine has restrictors and modified oil system and used mainly off street.......... or so I'm told!)

I was sooo fortunate to find this car with zero rust or other damage and also no oil and crud either. Cleaning it for paint was quite easy and quick, but good prep is ALWAY key to good result. The first time I gun sprayed it with a BSAF single stage semi gloss black that I mixed myself, and then shot it with Glaserit semi-gloss 2K clear coat. It looked good, but I was not that happy with its ability to be cleaned and detailed. The second time, all I needed to do was a good scuffing and degreasing. Needles to say EVERYTHING that is screwed on, screwed in, you name it, has to be removed. I did not remove the fenders this time, but made sure they were well masked off as well as the rest of the car, which was stripped and repainted the year before. If you find my post, it was well described there as to what I did and the paints I used, but I chose Eastwood's 2K under hood ceramic low-gloss in rattle cans, took two, along with other Eastwood paints to finish off. For the engine I chose Duplicolor Ford Dark Corporate Blue, (not sure of the number right now), High heat. I chose this in rattle cans for ease of touch-up later if needed.

NPD etc. have bolt kits or individual packs for final assembly, very important in my opinion to having it LOOK right. One tip I can offer that I found worked well, was to soak all the black phosphorus nuts and bolts in Evapo-Rust or similar. It cleaned off the rust but not the finish for most of them. Some needed a light shot of trim black paint.

Hope this helps and here is a recent picture of what a detailed engine bay can get you.

Just bragging a bit now, best in class 1970-72!!

Geoff.

Geoff.

 I learn something new every day!

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Join the conversation

You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.

Guest
Reply to this topic...

×   Pasted as rich text.   Paste as plain text instead

  Only 75 emoji are allowed.

×   Your link has been automatically embedded.   Display as a link instead

×   Your previous content has been restored.   Clear editor

×   You cannot paste images directly. Upload or insert images from URL.

 Share

  • Recently Browsing   0 members

    • No registered users viewing this page.
×
×
  • Create New...