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awesome read from a lot of people with a lot of knowledge thanks guys! Im running a 73 Q code that I had rebuilt here in OZ as a 393 stroker the engine builder so wanted to go to CHI 3V heads but I had to explain its a fkn Q code it has to have 4V heads we ended up with a 393 solid flat cammed CHI 4V headed cleveland that revs its balls out and gets there quick I really love this engine great read thanks guys long live the 4V cleveland

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  • 7 months later...

Most of the readers here are concentrating on revving their 351c, as well as modifying for more performance, and, that's cool. If you guys have followed many of my posts you'll know I also tow my ski boat, and dragboat, with my Mach 1. I bought the Mach 1 with a 4v engine, but since about 2002, have been driving everyday......yes, read that everyday ( to and from work, errands, whatever, it's my only car ) with a 351 2v under the hood. This little engine that could, pushes the car around like nobody's business and is just perfect for the everyday grind, but really shows what it can do when towing up a hill. Like they say, it's a small block that thinks it's a big block. I don't downshift going up the "grapevine", ( a long mountain pass outside of the San Fernando Valley), I just give it a bit more pedal and it pulls with all it's got. Stock 2v heads, flat top pistons. The camshaft is a factory stock Melling replacement of the stock 4v, not Boss or H.O., for just a tad more lift than the factory 2v cam, with a stock iron 2v intake manifold and Autolite 2100. The car already had the cold air ( ram-air) on it. I changed out the 3.00 "open"rear end gearing, to a 3.50 Traction-loc rear, which was done for better "grunt" towing, pulling a trailer up a slippery launch ramp, and traction control on dirt, but not for drag racing type starts, in my application. The 351c has torque, more torque than other small blocks, either Ford, or Brand X, and I'm doing better at the gas pump than I did with the 4v heads. Possibly a swap to Aussie 2v heads with the 4v chamber would show even more grunt with the compression increase. No headers thus far, but I think about it. Either way, the 4v and 2v Cleveland is a good powerplant!

092015Galpin-001.jpg.80af6416dac3696a356d17d3865633e5.jpg

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My 4V Cleveland, purchased from Don of OMS, has plenty of torque.

I can idle up hill at 500 RPM no problem and I have a 2.75 rear.

Don't really need first gear, starts off the line in 2nd just fine.

 

mike

'71 M-code Grande w/toploader

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  • 5 months later...

And it is one of the best looking motors around.. ;)

 

Interesting read.   I didn't know they ran toe to toe with the 7 liter engines.    I am going to look for other documentation on that.

 

I have a 351c-4v.  I haven't tried to turn it up to 7200 rpm.  I don't think the cam and valve springs would support that but I understand that if I had the right valve train, the bottom end would hold up no problem.

 

When looking for the info on NASCAR look at the Talladega record set by Bill Elliot with 351 C it still stands even today. Seems like it was 211. He was going to try and break it with a stock Mustang a few years ago but had a tire go down and he did not try again. Today's engine designs do go way ahead of the Cleveland but it was king then. If you build one with 16 to one compression like Elliot used they sound strange, lol. His brother was first to go with the really high compression and is reason for all his winning.

When a man is in the woods and talks and no women are there is he still wrong??:P

David

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Some of the guys I knew in NASCAR said the only issue they had with the Cleveland was that the bearing diameters were too large. When you start to turn high rpm the surface speed on the bearing hurts you big time. That is why some cut them down and use Chevy size bearings. So never worry about grinding a crank and making it weak it will be better.

When a man is in the woods and talks and no women are there is he still wrong??:P

David

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  • 2 years later...

Sorry guys, I love the Cleveland, but it being designed for NASCAR is BS. These cylinders heads first came out in 68 on the 69 Boss 302. They were designed too replace 302 tunnel port heads for Trans-Am. The design work had to be pretty much done by 67 probably earlier. Nobody in 67 was thinking NASCAR needed a small block. If I remember correctly the first time big blocks were even thought about being replaced with small blocks was 72 or 73. And that didn't get off well. In Grand National NASCAR racing a car could be up too 4 years old. Soo a Plymouth Superbird was legal until 74. NASCAR wanted too slow them down so teams were given a choice. Run a regular Roadrunner with a 426 Hemi or a Superbird with a 340. A few tried it. The regular Roadrunner with a 426 stomped it as did the Cyclone with the 429. I'm not depending on someone's research here but personal memory. My Father owned several NASCAR tracks back in the day & yea I'm that old. And as good as a Cleveland is if you think it will run with a 427 Tunnel Port, then you've never driven a 427 Tunnel Port.

PS NASCAR did have a pony car division IE Boss 302s versus Z-28s. It was never very popular though. Who wants too pay $ too watch a Barracuda with a destroked 340 race when we can watch a Superbird with a 426 Hemi.

Edited by M9Powell
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On 7/12/2011 at 7:27 PM, will e said:

 

"There is no replacement for displacement". 😉

 

 

 

 

On 7/14/2011 at 2:35 PM, FastE said:

 

By the way Gearge is on facebook also.He is always open to questions and helping others. He does not beleive in strocked Clevelands though.He likes them the way they were designed.

I don't either. I think the original design was supposed to be a 335 with the 4 inch bore. In other words a destroked 351. I think a .060 over 335 would be the cats meow. It would allow for more RPMs. I had a good amount of experience building, modifying & serious street racing a boss 302 which uses the same cylinder heads, I get a bit irritated when people say a Boss 302 uses 351 Cleveland heads, NO a 351 Cleveland uses Boss 302 heads. The Boss 302 came first. Anyway I turned that Boss 302 too 10,000 RPMs, I think a properly set up .060 over 335 Cleveland might be good for 9,000 with a few more cubes than a Boss 302.

Edited by M9Powell
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  • 1 month later...

Please show me where anyone said NASCAR was the reason for the design???  You are like the internet distorted. Yes the first 302 Boss was for trans AM. A former member here not passed was the leader of that engine. TA racing was a drop in the bucket for Ford. There was way more in NASCAR. I worked in a NASCAR shop and I would never race in their ranks due to the corruption that I saw first hand. The Cleveland engine was simply the next step in engine design not driven by any racing efforts. Racing lost money for Ford dependable engines on the street made them money.

 

When a man is in the woods and talks and no women are there is he still wrong??:P

David

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  • 3 weeks later...

Awesome information. I have 351 Cleveland, 2V on my 73 Mustang. I wonder how the 2Vs compare to the 4V and any other cool tid bits about it.

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Hey I'm also from western NC, Wilkes County. The reference to being designed for Nascar was in one of the articles above. My dad was one of the founding fathers for Nascar. He stayed in it up till the mid 60s, if you were around in that era you might know him. He owned the track in Asheville & several others. I can personally attest to the fact that Nascar was started by a bunch of rum runners. I'm currently looking for a 71-73 fastback straight gear car. A 3 speed manual is fine because I intend to convert it too a 5 speed anyway.

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Trans - Am was a big deal up north, the entire Boss 302, Z-28s, Trans- Am Fire bird, TA Challenger & it's Cuda equivalent were developed for it. Oh forgot AMX Javelin too. 

Edited by M9Powell
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Halo homuglatuon cars like a Boss 302 are important. Guy goes into a Ford dealer wanting a orange Boss, his wife talks him into buying the baby  blue 6 cyl notch back that's on sale for about 1/2 the price. Happened all the time. 

Edited by M9Powell
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Ford lost $$ on every 427 engine & car it ever made, BUT how many 390 Galaxies did they sell because of those loss leaders? Looks the same, smells the same, waay cheaper. Most new car buyers are tighter than a bulls a$$ in fly season. 

Edited by M9Powell
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So I guess your dad owned the New Asheville Speedway?? I worked for Roger Ingram, Jack Ingram drove Chevy and his brother Tom drove Ford. Larry Ingram was great at porting heads. Roger was like the innovator of the Ingram's. He was always trying to find a new way to cheat and not get caught, lol. 

All the idiots in Asheville got the track shut down I use to love to sit high up in turn 4. A lot of pretty good drivers got their start at the NAS. Now all they do is run on foot on the track or maybe ride a bike. 

I have been putting off getting over to visit with Ben Barnes I want to build a track days car myself. Ben use to kart race when me and my son did. He is about the only engine builder left that will help out the little guy any. That was what Roger did a lot of. We use to build engines for Cecil Gordon and he ran nearly ever race in NASCAR and cut pulp wood to make a living. I know the Ford dealer in Hendersonville, Garrett at the time use to hold invoices until he could pay. As far as loosing money on the 427, I think they did not loose on the normal 427 it was the Tunnel ports and SOHC that lost money after NASCAR outlawed them.

On a car there was a 72 fastback, blue in color for sale last fall but with the virus I have not seen them at local shows. It was a pretty solid car but was not a Mach 1 which is not a big thing. 
I am over in Hendersonville, NC. Are you going to build a car like Joey Logano?image.thumb.png.99e01b5f077cabffb4826f48c88695a1.png

When a man is in the woods and talks and no women are there is he still wrong??:P

David

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The track my dad owned was asphalt & was wherever they raced in the late 50s- early 60s. I know it had a baseball diamond in the infield & got shut down by the govt. He owned several other tracks, in fact I think he may have owned the track the first NASCAR race was run on. It was near Durham in the V where I-40 & I-85 split & was a horse track to begin with. They had some races earlier at Daytona but they weren't on a track, just racing up & down the beach mostly. My Dad was pretty close with Banjo Matthews, Fireball Roberts & Junior Johnson. I don't know Joey Logona. I just want a pretty nice fastback with a stick 351. My favorite would be a 72 R code medium yellow gold. I know you like convertibles. There is about the nicest 73 convertible I've ever seen on ebay right now. Q code 4 speed with about ever available option on it.

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