Swaping my 351 cleveland for 408w stroker

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EvilPuppetMaster

Well-known member
Joined
Oct 27, 2016
Messages
123
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Location
Ottawa
My Car
1972 Mustang Mach 1 Q - code
Hi all

I can get really good deal on windsor based 408 stroker. 

I am just wandering what is involved and is everything going to fit.

I have c6 attached to my cleveland.

I believe c6 is compatible with 351w  

Does anyone know what headers (long tube) can I use for this swap? What other problems I might run into.

I have power steering in my 72 mach 1

Cheers

Alex

 
Since the Windsor was only in Mexican Mustangs you will probably not have many parts to choose from. Headers probably do not exist.

Why would you go to windsor from cleveland? I know more people run them but Cleveland is much better engine I think. Just an opinion I have 7 of them.
Just because I can get my hands on a very good 408w short block. Parts are cheeper for windsor so I am thinking it would be cool to build it. 

I found another guy on youtube with heddman headers just dont know what model they are.

Do you thing windsor will just drop in without any issues? Mounting brackets should be the same

Alex

 
You may have a hard time finding headers. See this thread, there are also some older ones

https://www.7173mustangs.com/thread-hooker-competition-headers-issue?

Other than that a 351W will fit, it's slightly taller and wider than a Cleveland.

Because you're getting a short block, have you thought about a Clevor?

Compression ratios are always a concern with stroked engines, the compression ratio can get too high if the correct combination of pistons and heads is not used.

 
You may have a hard time finding headers. See this thread, there are also some older ones

https://www.7173mustangs.com/thread-hooker-competition-headers-issue?

Other than that a 351W will fit, it's slightly taller and wider than a Cleveland.

Because you're getting a short block, have you thought about a Clevor?

Compression ratios are always a concern with stroked engines, the compression ratio can get too high if the correct combination of pistons and heads is not used.
Thanks Don. I did think about building clevor

So the good thing is that pistons in 408 are 25cc dished pistons . According to my math it would give me close to 10 if I use 58 cc heads

I was under Impression that everything above 9.6 cr with iron heads is looking for trouble.

Would I need custom intake for clevor? What would be the best head to make clevor. Open or closed chambers

Thanks for help

 
You can buy intakes for Clevors,

https://www.speedwaymotors.com/Edelbrock-7183-351-Clevor-Ford-RPM-Intake-Manifold,23646.html

you can also get adapter plates

http://www.pricemotorsport.com/html/body_intake_adapters.html

You also have to have the cooling system adapter and thermostat housing

http://www.pricemotorsport.com/html/body_thermostat_housing.html

Your dynamic compression ratio is what is important, and that is controlled by the camshaft. You can calculate your static and dynamic compression ratios here

https://www.7173mustangs.com/thread-engine-and-compression-calculations

With 25cc dishes and a moderate cam you shouldn't have any problem. There are quite a few how-to's online on building Clevors. Here is one

http://www.mustangandfords.com/how-to/engine/30220-clevor-engine/

 
Last edited by a moderator:
I’m doing the same as my 408w mated to a tremec was going in my 95gt until my dad decided to come off his 73. Over the next few months I’ll be test fitting it all together first off using the foxbody swap headers since they’re new and I have them. From there I don’t know. There’s several offered but none 71-73 specific.

My short block was originally setup using closed chamber Cleveland heads in our drag car, but then your still stuck on headers.

 
These hooker long tubes are SUPPOSED to fit a 351w in a 71-73 mustang. Power steering will be an issue. You will just have to see how big of one it is. Maybe if you convert to a Saginaw style pump it wont be a problem.

C6 will bolt up to any Windsor block.

Other potential issues will be, will it hit the frame? Will it clear the transmission? Most issues can be corrected if you don't mind a little cut and weld.

https://www.cjponyparts.com/hooker-long-tube-headers-1-5-8-competition-stainless-steel-289-302-1965-1973-351w-1967-1973/p/EXHD94/?year=1971&msclkid=a980f47e689315d3108daf95462a2176&utm_source=bing&utm_medium=cpc&utm_campaign=New%20Bing%20Shopping%20Ads&utm_term=1101201852543&utm_content=All%20Products

 
Last edited by a moderator:
A forum member from New Zealand found that his Hookers, from CJ, wouldn't work for him, see the link in post #4, above.
Thanks everyone for info but I do not feel i want to go this route. Too many unknowns and not many people have done it before so I am out. 

On the other note , I just took my cleveland 4 main block to the machine shop for rebuild

I'll create new thread for this build as I need your advice on the heads and camshaft

Alex

 
Thanks everyone for info but I do not feel i want to go this route. Too many unknowns and not many people have done it before so I am out. 

On the other note , I just took my cleveland 4 main block to the machine shop for rebuild

I'll create new thread for this build as I need your advice on the heads and camshaft

Alex
I wouldn't rebuild the bottom end until you determine exactly what heads you want to use so you can get the right pistons. With closed chamber heads, you will reduce the potential for detonation by having the block zero decked.

If they install cam bearings, i would not set the front one deeper than .005" to minimize how much the huge oil hole in that journal will be exposed.

If you use a mellings oil pump, you should hone the bypass port slightly and sand the bypass piston or you can buy a blueprinted pump.

If you plan to rev it high you should consider some of the oil mods to the block and lifter bores.

 
Last edited by a moderator:
Thanks everyone for info but I do not feel i want to go this route. Too many unknowns and not many people have done it before so I am out. 

On the other note , I just took my cleveland 4 main block to the machine shop for rebuild

I'll create new thread for this build as I need your advice on the heads and camshaft

Alex
I wouldn't rebuild the bottom end until you determine exactly what heads you want to use so you can get the right pistons. With closed chamber heads, you will reduce the potential for detonation by having the block zero decked.

If they install cam bearings, i would not set the front one deeper than .005" to minimize how much the huge oil hole in that journal will be exposed.

If you use a mellings oil pump, you should hone the bypass port slightly and sand the bypass piston or you can buy a blueprinted pump.

If you plan to rev it high you should consider some of the oil mods to the block and lifter bores.
 Good point. I  brought the block to the shop so they can do the engine block prep.

They need to line hone  it , grind the crank etc... still waiting from them to tell me all the sizes so that I can order rebuildkit

For now , I am aiming for 450 hp

So plan is to go with flattops and aluminum cylinder heads and aim for a bit over 10 cr.

If I go with iron I will for sure not exceed 9.6 cr

I currently own a set of farea 5000 stainless valves but they are for 2v head. The size is 2.07 and 1.65 I believe.

I am looking to go with aftermarket aluminum that will take these valves  I believe chi 2v heafs will use these. 

I also see procomp heads very cheap online but I guess like with everything else you get what you pay for

My machine shop guy said that they built few procomp heads and did not have any issues with them

So not really sure what to do.

Anyone got 4v cc heads for sale ???? I am ready to consider anything at this point

Cheers  ::beer::

Alex

 
Last edited by a moderator:
Thanks everyone for info but I do not feel i want to go this route. Too many unknowns and not many people have done it before so I am out. 

On the other note , I just took my cleveland 4 main block to the machine shop for rebuild

I'll create new thread for this build as I need your advice on the heads and camshaft

Alex
I wouldn't rebuild the bottom end until you determine exactly what heads you want to use so you can get the right pistons. With closed chamber heads, you will reduce the potential for detonation by having the block zero decked.

If they install cam bearings, i would not set the front one deeper than .005" to minimize how much the huge oil hole in that journal will be exposed.

If you use a mellings oil pump, you should hone the bypass port slightly and sand the bypass piston or you can buy a blueprinted pump.

If you plan to rev it high you should consider some of the oil mods to the block and lifter bores.
 Good point. I  brought the block to the shop so they can do the engine block prep.

They need to line hone  it , grind the crank etc... still waiting from them to tell me all the sizes so that I can order rebuildkit

For now , I am aiming for 450 hp

So plan is to go with flattops and aluminum cylinder heads and aim for a bit over 10 cr.

If I go with iron I will for sure not exceed 9.6 cr

I currently own a set of farea 5000 stainless valves but they are for 2v head. The size is 2.07 and 1.65 I believe.

I am looking to go with aftermarket aluminum that will take these valves  I believe chi 2v heafs will use these. 

I also see procomp heads very cheap online but I guess like with everything else you get what you pay for

My machine shop guy said that they built few procomp heads and did not have any issues with them

So not really sure what to do.

Anyone got 4v cc heads for sale ???? I am ready to consider anything at this point

Cheers  ::beer::

Alex
ok, trying to get a true 450 hp with iron heads is a waste of time and money. yes pro comp heads are structurally "ok" these days but dont flow great. it costs a lot of money to obtain big RELIABLE hp like that and the secret to big hp without sacraficing a lot of torque is in the heads. i would also be doing the crank oil mods at the very least with that.

you also need different connecting rods and better push rods etc.

with good heads you can run a roller cam but those or a lot of money. 

realistically, just how far do you want to rev this engine?

 
Last edited by a moderator:
Good luck with your build. I may end up going that direction if once fitting the 408w in becomes to big of a hassle. It’s already built and paid for or I’d go the Cleveland route.

Curiosity wonders how much difference there is between the 69-70 engine compartments vs our big bodies since Windsor headers are available for them?

 
I wouldn't rebuild the bottom end until you determine exactly what heads you want to use so you can get the right pistons. With closed chamber heads, you will reduce the potential for detonation by having the block zero decked.

If they install cam bearings, i would not set the front one deeper than .005" to minimize how much the huge oil hole in that journal will be exposed.

If you use a mellings oil pump, you should hone the bypass port slightly and sand the bypass piston or you can buy a blueprinted pump.

If you plan to rev it high you should consider some of the oil mods to the block and lifter bores.
 Good point. I  brought the block to the shop so they can do the engine block prep.

They need to line hone  it , grind the crank etc... still waiting from them to tell me all the sizes so that I can order rebuildkit

For now , I am aiming for 450 hp

So plan is to go with flattops and aluminum cylinder heads and aim for a bit over 10 cr.

If I go with iron I will for sure not exceed 9.6 cr

I currently own a set of farea 5000 stainless valves but they are for 2v head. The size is 2.07 and 1.65 I believe.

I am looking to go with aftermarket aluminum that will take these valves  I believe chi 2v heafs will use these. 

I also see procomp heads very cheap online but I guess like with everything else you get what you pay for

My machine shop guy said that they built few procomp heads and did not have any issues with them

So not really sure what to do.

Anyone got 4v cc heads for sale ???? I am ready to consider anything at this point

Cheers  ::beer::

Alex
ok, trying to get a true 450 hp with iron heads is a waste of time and money. yes pro comp heads are structurally "ok" these days but dont flow great. it costs a lot of money to obtain big RELIABLE hp like that and the secret to big hp without sacraficing a lot of torque is in the heads. i would also be doing the crank oil mods at the very least with that.

you also need different connecting rods and better push rods etc.

with good heads you can run a roller cam but those or a lot of money. 

realistically, just how far do you want to rev this engine?
Thanks for your help guys.

I'll be honest with you (with myself) this will be a street car. So my goal of 450 is something that I wish to accomplish but not really necessary.  What I want is reliable car. That being said it will not be reved more then 5.5k and even that very rarely. I just want to be able to step on it whenever possible 

I was thinking retrofitting with roller cam and lifters . I am always worried of wiping a cam lobe so rollers would be great to eliminate that.

As far as cam is concerned I was thinking 280h with flat tapped or 284hr if I go roller.

I like that nice rough sound it has but I am worried about vacuum for my power brakes. I might have to get a vacuum canister to help with that issue.

I'll google more about oil mods so that I can pass the info to the engine builder

I'll keep original connecting rods but will use arp fasteners for them .

Alex

 
Last edited by a moderator:
 Good point. I  brought the block to the shop so they can do the engine block prep.

They need to line hone  it , grind the crank etc... still waiting from them to tell me all the sizes so that I can order rebuildkit

For now , I am aiming for 450 hp

So plan is to go with flattops and aluminum cylinder heads and aim for a bit over 10 cr.

If I go with iron I will for sure not exceed 9.6 cr

I currently own a set of farea 5000 stainless valves but they are for 2v head. The size is 2.07 and 1.65 I believe.

I am looking to go with aftermarket aluminum that will take these valves  I believe chi 2v heafs will use these. 

I also see procomp heads very cheap online but I guess like with everything else you get what you pay for

My machine shop guy said that they built few procomp heads and did not have any issues with them

So not really sure what to do.

Anyone got 4v cc heads for sale ???? I am ready to consider anything at this point

Cheers  ::beer::

Alex
ok, trying to get a true 450 hp with iron heads is a waste of time and money. yes pro comp heads are structurally "ok" these days but dont flow great. it costs a lot of money to obtain big RELIABLE hp like that and the secret to big hp without sacraficing a lot of torque is in the heads. i would also be doing the crank oil mods at the very least with that.

you also need different connecting rods and better push rods etc.

with good heads you can run a roller cam but those or a lot of money. 

realistically, just how far do you want to rev this engine?
Thanks for your help guys.

I'll be honest with you (with myself) this will be a street car. So my goal of 450 is something that I wish to accomplish but not really necessary.  What I want is reliable car. That being said it will not be reved more then 5.5k and even that very rarely. I just want to be able to step on it whenever possible 

I was thinking retrofitting with roller cam and lifters . I am always worried of wiping a cam lobe so rollers would be great to eliminate that.

As far as cam is concerned I was thinking 280h with flat tapped or 284hr if I go roller.

I like that nice rough sound it has but I am worried about vacuum for my power brakes. I might have to get a vacuum canister to help with that issue.

I'll google more about oil mods so that I can pass the info to the engine builder

I'll keep original connecting rods but will use arp fasteners for them .

Alex
you have a 4 speed with 3.50 gears?

nearly any heads will suit your goal.

those cams are more in your range but still a bit large, but there are others like lunati and crane, or even a custom cam from someone like chris straub.

a vacuum can does very little on its own. vacuum pumps are often needed with pb and low vacuum.

 
ok, trying to get a true 450 hp with iron heads is a waste of time and money. yes pro comp heads are structurally "ok" these days but dont flow great. it costs a lot of money to obtain big RELIABLE hp like that and the secret to big hp without sacraficing a lot of torque is in the heads. i would also be doing the crank oil mods at the very least with that.

you also need different connecting rods and better push rods etc.

with good heads you can run a roller cam but those or a lot of money. 

realistically, just how far do you want to rev this engine?
Thanks for your help guys.

I'll be honest with you (with myself) this will be a street car. So my goal of 450 is something that I wish to accomplish but not really necessary.  What I want is reliable car. That being said it will not be reved more then 5.5k and even that very rarely. I just want to be able to step on it whenever possible 

I was thinking retrofitting with roller cam and lifters . I am always worried of wiping a cam lobe so rollers would be great to eliminate that.

As far as cam is concerned I was thinking 280h with flat tapped or 284hr if I go roller.

I like that nice rough sound it has but I am worried about vacuum for my power brakes. I might have to get a vacuum canister to help with that issue.

I'll google more about oil mods so that I can pass the info to the engine builder

I'll keep original connecting rods but will use arp fasteners for them .

Alex
you have a 4 speed with 3.50 gears?

nearly any heads will suit your goal.

those cams are more in your range but still a bit large, but there are others like lunati and crane, or even a custom cam from someone like chris straub.

a vacuum can does very little on its own. vacuum pumps are often needed with pb and low vacuum.
I currently have c6 with 3.25 gears

Alex

 
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