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Newbie with questions about 351w or 351c


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Hi all. New member here. Turned 40 years old last week and bought my first ever muscle/classic car project.  I’ve been wanting to do this since I was a teenager but never had the means. 

This week I bought a 1971 Mustang Mach 1. Previous owner did a lot of the body work and gave up on the project.  Windshield, fuel tank, panels, trunk etc all replaced.  Car runs and drives but needs restoration. Mostly the interior is trashed. But here’s my plans and my questions 

 

I’d like to get he car as close to original stock as possible (except I’d like to cha he the interior from red to black). I think initially I want to just get everything cleaned up, engine bay painted and motor painted pretty, underside painted, interior redone etc. I don’t expect it to be a $100k show car. But I do want it done to the best of my ability and somewhat limited finances. 

 

So here’s my main question. Whenever I get to the engine work. I do want to beef it up a little. Add a little HP. However, my car was an original 351 2v per Marti report. But it doesn’t specify if it was Cleveland or Windsor. 

 

Well.... my car has a 351w in it and the previous owner swears it’s the original motor. But I’m finding conflicting results when I search. Some say these 71-73 stands never had a Windsor at all. And others say there were rare instances when a Windsor was used. Specifically early production 71 models (mine was produced 11/1970). So my production date would support that theory if it’s fact. 

 

So before I dig into the Windsor and build it up and paint it. I want to know for a fact if it’s original. If it’s not, I’d rather replace with a Cleveland. 

 

Anyone have any ideas??

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Hello from Texas!

 

Looks like you've got your work cut out.  I myself have not had my first hot rod until I was 55 (Last Year!).  I bought a 72 Mach 1 that was mostly restored in body and mechanics but the brakes, steering, interior and electrical were all shot.  Spent many months getting what i could done.  Anyway the pic of the label from the valve cover that you posted indicates that it is a Windsor engine.  Here is a link for IDing the difference.

 

https://www.vintage-mustang.com/topics/faq/351windsorcleveland.html

 

Hi all. New member here. Turned 40 years old last week and bought my first ever muscle/classic car project.  I’ve been wanting to do this since I was a teenager but never had the means. 

This week I bought a 1971 Mustang Mach 1. Previous owner did a lot of the body work and gave up on the project.  Windshield, fuel tank, panels, trunk etc all replaced.  Car runs and drives but needs restoration. Mostly the interior is trashed. But here’s my plans and my questions 

 

I’d like to get he car as close to original stock as possible (except I’d like to cha he the interior from red to black). I think initially I want to just get everything cleaned up, engine bay painted and motor painted pretty, underside painted, interior redone etc. I don’t expect it to be a $100k show car. But I do want it done to the best of my ability and somewhat limited finances. 

 

So here’s my main question. Whenever I get to the engine work. I do want to beef it up a little. Add a little HP. However, my car was an original 351 2v per Marti report. But it doesn’t specify if it was Cleveland or Windsor. 

 

Well.... my car has a 351w in it and the previous owner swears it’s the original motor. But I’m finding conflicting results when I search. Some say these 71-73 stands never had a Windsor at all. And others say there were rare instances when a Windsor was used. Specifically early production 71 models (mine was produced 11/1970). So my production date would support that theory if it’s fact. 

 

So before I dig into the Windsor and build it up and paint it. I want to know for a fact if it’s original. If it’s not, I’d rather replace with a Cleveland. 

 

Anyone have any ideas??

9-20-19-Mine-Again.jpg1972 Mach 1 351 Cleveland Ram Air, C6, 9 inch with 3.25 Posi, Sanderson Ceramic Headers, 2.5" dual H Pipe exhaust w/stainless tips, MSD Ignition, Edlelbrock 4BB Carb, Wilwood Front Discs, Summit Racing Rear Discs.

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Hi. Thank you.

 

I know it’s a Windsor. But my question is how can I confirm if it’s the original engine or if it originally had a Cleveland?

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I would say it's an engine from a newer model. Catalytic converters didn't start being used until 1975, and the first breakerless ignitions in Ford's was in 1974 or 1975.

 

Is there a metal tag attached to the top of the engine anyplace? If so, it should have more information.

 

Otherwise you'll have to try and find the casting number and date code for the engine. The casting number and date code for the intake manifold should be easier. There should also be a partial VIN located on the back of the block, right below the head gasket, on the driver's side that will let you know what the engine came out of.

 

 

“If you can't explain it simply, you don't understand it well enough.”

--Albert Einstein

 

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The engine has partial VIN# stamped on the block just below the surface the head mounts on the drivers side. The Mexican Mustangs all had Windsor. No Windsor were approved for use in U.S.. It is possible for a prototype to get out. The date codes on the casting is another obvious area to look.  

Never say never with Ford. You never know.

When a man is in the woods and talks and no women are there is he still wrong??:P

David

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Thanks guys. This is kinda what I figured. Just didn’t know for certain. I’ll try and find a code tomorrow.

 

That said. I did find a complete 351 Cleveland from a guy locally who said he will give to me for $100 just to haul it off. He said he doesn’t know a whole lot about it. But believes the block is fine with no cracks. Even thinks the 2v heads are good but said the rest probably needs a full rebuild. So for the price, I’m going to pick it up tomorrow.

 

I’ve never built an engine from the ground up before. Other than disassembling it. What should be the first thing I do? Is it going to need to go to a machine shop? What should I expect to pay for that? And what should I be looking to get them to do?

00848-ECC-3345-475-F-A9-B1-B2-A8182-B081-A.jpg

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I would say, from just looking at it there has likely been water in the cylinders, and if it's a standard bore you shouldn't have any problem getting it bored.

 

Pull the intake and heads, see what condition the cylinders are in. Check the tops of the pistons or use dial or digital calipers to measure the diameter of the cylinders. Also check for a ridge at the top of the cylinders, these will give you an idea of the condition and what needs to be done. Most likely you'll need to take it to a machinist. If you want, go ahead and pull it apart yourself, check crankshaft journals and cam condition. Good time to upgrade the camshaft and have cam bearings installed. Also take the heads to the machinist and have them checked for cracks and have the valve guides checked and have hardened valve seats installed. Depending on what your plans are for it, you may want to have studs installed for adjustable rocker arms. If it's a '72 or '73 it'll likely have dished pistons, I would replace with flat top pistons.

 

If it needs the crankshaft ground or replaced you might want to consider a stroker kit, good way to add plenty of power.

 

Get the shop manual for it, they're available in PDF format on CDs or download.

 

 

“If you can't explain it simply, you don't understand it well enough.”

--Albert Einstein

 

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As I understand it ....Cleve has 4x bolt crank - longer block, bigger heads, (makes good strokers) - typical Windsors unless "Roush for Pantera" were 2x bolt crank.  In a 7173 I couldnt care less if it were a 302 .. I love all the 71-73 cars too much.

 

Gladly, unless someone in here tells me different.. .there was no straight 6 260ci. ....which would make me barf - vomit uncontrollably and have me on the shrinks couch for weeks. Welcome from UK btw.

 

260ci.jpg

sig2.jpg

Enjoy's searching out 71-73 history

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As I understand it ....Cleve has 4x bolt crank - longer block, bigger heads, (makes good strokers) - typical Windsors unless "Roush for Pantera" were 2x bolt crank.  In a 7173 I couldnt care less if it were a 302 .. I love all the 71-73 cars too much.

 

Gladly, unless someone in here tells me different.. .there was no straight 6 260ci. ....which would make me barf - vomit uncontrollably and have me on the shrinks couch for weeks. Welcome from UK btw.

 

260ci.jpg

Hey

1 - NOT all Cleveland's were 4 bolt mains

2 - There were over 25,000  250 CID 6 cyl motors ... there goes your lunch and all those pints :D :D :D

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Hey

1 - NOT all Cleveland's were 4 bolt mains

2 - There were over 25,000  250 CID 6 cyl motors ... there goes your lunch and all those pints :D :D :D

 

HAHAHAHAA 

thanks OMS   :bravo: ...whos gonna clean up the mess?

sig2.jpg

Enjoy's searching out 71-73 history

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As I understand it ....Cleve has 4x bolt crank - longer block, bigger heads, (makes good strokers) - typical Windsors unless "Roush for Pantera" were 2x bolt crank.  In a 7173 I couldnt care less if it were a 302 .. I love all the 71-73 cars too much.

 

Gladly, unless someone in here tells me different.. .there was no straight 6 260ci. ....which would make me barf - vomit uncontrollably and have me on the shrinks couch for weeks. Welcome from UK btw.

 

 

 

Iso - here's a primer on the 351C that I wrote some 15 years ago.

------------------------------------------

 

 

1970:

 

351C-4V was introduced as an M-code. 300hp, closed chamber heads, 2 bolt main caps,

cast flat top pistons for an advertised 10.7:1 compression ratio, non adjustable hydraulic valvetrain,

Autolite 4300 square bore carb, dual exhaust. All automatics received the FMX.

 

2V - H-code - same basic shortblock block as the M-code, topped with open chamber heads, smaller valves and ports, milder cam. 2 barrel Autolite 2100 carburetor.

 

1971

M-code continued unchanged, but was rated at 285, probably only to be

second fiddle to the as-then planned 71 Mustang Boss 302 (290hp). The Boss 302 was dropped (thankfully) in

favor of the 330hp Boss 351 (R-code). Automatic M-codes received the C-6 trans standard, with a poorly suited torque converter.

 

2V - same as the '70 2V

 

R- code (Mustang only) Boss 351 engine was only available in the sportsroof Boss 351 model, 4-bolt main block, specially selected

crank, D1ZX rods of 1041 steel and 180,000 psi rod bolts, closed chamber heads with fully adjustable

valvetrain with mechanical cam (290 duration, .477 lift), Boss 302 type aluminum valve covers with "Boss 351"

emblem, dual point dizzy, forged pop-up (domed) pistons, larger (2.25") exhaust

manifold outlets, aluminum spread bore intake with an Autolite 4300D carb, baffled oil pan with a crank scraper and a re-calibrated

dipstick to show 6-quart capacity as full and ram-air, F60-15 tires, wide ratio 4-speed and 3.91 gears as standard.

 

351CJ (280hp) was introduced in May '71. It was always VIN code "Q", produced concurrently with the M-code. 351CJ was a 4-bolt main block. Pistons were the same cast flat tops as the "M" code. Heads were identical to the M code --except-- that they used an open

combustion chamber design like the 351C-2V, reducing compression to around 9:1. Cam was a CJ specific grind, with a split duration

and lift (280/290 duration, .480/.488 lift). 4-bolt main block, dual advance, dual point distributor was standard, oil capacity was 5 quarts, pan had a slosh plate over the sump. Intake was cast iron with a Ford style spreadbore pattern, Autolite 4300D carb. All CJ's equipped with an automatic got a C-6 with a special hi-stall torque converter (@ 2500rpms).

 

1972

M-code was gone. Q-code CJ continued essentially unchanged, but was now rated at 266 hp, due to the change

from Gross horsepower ratings to SAE Net horsepower ratings. Only other change was to retard the cam 4 degrees for

emissions purposes (this was a corporate wide thing, all V-8 engines received this mod). The Mustang-only R-code was back

for a second year, but was now known as the 351HO. It was no longer a specific model, it was just a drivetrain option with the 4-speed and 3.91 rear axle standard. Heads on the HO had the open chamber design, cam was still mechanical, but now had 275 duration and .490 lift.

 

2V - H-code - essentially the same as the same as the '71 2V, but with the 4* cam retard.

 

1973

R-code was gone, Q-code no longer marketed as the "Cobra Jet" in the Mustang or Torino, simply "351-4V", but continued to be the 351CJ in Mercury vehicles. All engines received dished pistons to drop the compression even further. Emissions equipment sprouted from the motor, EGR, spark timing etc. Horsepower was now rated at 264. Q-code received smaller valves in the heads. Valve sizes went from 2.19 I / 1.77" E to

2.05" I / 1.66" E, same as the 2V 351C.

 

2V - H-code - essentially the same as the same as the '72 2V, but with dished pistons and EGR, plus other tune-specific emissions setups.

 

1974

Q-code continued on in the Cougar, Torino & Montego. Horespower now rated at 255. This was the last year for the 4V engines.

 

 

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In the second post that refers to the engine differences, isnt 14mm and 5/8" referring somewhat to the same plug? In my Cleveland, I use Autolite type 25 which is a 14mm thread and 5/8" spark plug socket.

Are they referring to some other comparison??

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No, the size refers to the thread diameter of the spark plug. The 5/8" spark plug uses a 13/16" socket, 14mm plugs have a thread diameter of slightly larger than 1/2".

 

 

“If you can't explain it simply, you don't understand it well enough.”

--Albert Einstein

 

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