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Z Bar fitment


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I didn't receive any response to my previous post so I will try again. I have a 71 Mach 1 351 Cleveland, original C6 car.  I pulled the motor, had it rebuilt, and have changed to a toploader transmission. This is my first time installing a motor in a car.  I'm sure I've made my share of mistakes up to this point.

 

The issue I am having is the fitment of the Z bar appears to be too snug, and the alignment looks off. I don't know if its an engine alignment issue, or what it could be. When we installed the engine, the transmission was attached. It went in as one unit. We then bolted the motor mounts to the frame mounts. Right here could be my first issue.

I changed the mounts on the motor. I was not aware that the mounts on the frame could be changed as well.

 

After tightening the motor mounts, we installed the four speed transmission brace. Installing the transmission brace took a little effort. We had to push and pull the transmission from side to side in order for it to line up with the bracket. This leads me to believe my engine may not be aligned. The headers followed, and installed easily.

 

Installing the Z bar was challenging. I don't know what the correct procedure is, but this is how I had to approach it to get it to mount. I first mounted the bracket that goes to the bell housing. I snugged the bolts down but left a slight bit of play in them. This bracket has a 5/8" thick felt washer. I next slid the Z bar onto the ball and nylon bushing. The z bar has the frame mount bracket already installed, as well as a 1/4" felt washer between the z bar and frame bracket. I slid the z bar into place, bolted the bracket to the frame, and tightened down the bracket to the bell housing.

With the Z bar in place, that 5/8" washer that is between the Z bar and bell housing bracket, has been completely smashed. Where the Z bar and felt washer rest against the frame bracket, is not a flush contact, but a slight angle. It also takes some effort to get the z bar to move forward and backward.

 

I would appreciate it if members could send photos of stock Z bars, and aftermarket Z bars, that illustrates the correct spacing the Z bar should have on each side.

I would also like to see how the felt washer functions. Is it snug fit? Does it float between the bracket and nylon bushing? Does it recess into the Z bar? Are the washers two different sizes.

I've attached a few photos of my parts, and how they look installed. I appreciate any assistance.

 

#1 Bell housing bracket. Nylon bushing, that has a loose fit itself. 5/8" thick felt washer.

 

IMG-8464.jpg

 

 

#2 Bell housing bracket, bushing, 5/8" thick felt washer

IMG-8469.jpg

 

 

#3 Bracket that mounts to frame, with 1/4" felt washer

IMG-8466.jpg

 

 

 

#4 Z bar assembly prior to install.

IMG-8471.jpg

 

 

 

#5 Bracket attached to bell housing. Note, this was the 5/8" thick bracket. Now compressed to almost nothing.

IMG-8486.jpg

 

 

 

#6 Bracket that attaches to frame of car. Notice how top of z bar is applying pressure against felt washer. The lower part of the z bar has a gap. Also, the washer isn't centered

IMG-8490.jpg

 

cranium dice

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The metal clip goes into the split bushing(that I don't see pictured) that fits over the ball on the frame mount. The engine bashing floats and moves if the engine torques over.

 

That wouldn't fix the misalignment issue though. I could assume motor mounts or frame mounts being your issue. Was the car ever in a wreck?

Mike

__________________________________

Black 1985 GT

Yellow 1973 Mustang Mach 1

Black 2012 5.0 GT, 6-speed, Brembo brakes, 3.73's

Wimbledon White 1966 F-100 Shortbed Styleside, 390ci, Tremec 3550, FiTech EFI

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The welding on that z bar looks pretty rough. (Not trying to insult your purchase, but it is relevant) As rough as it looks, I would be verifying its actual dimensions. I suspect cutting it a 1/16th of an inch or so would correct the alignment issue. I would reweld or have it rewelded, that just doesn't seem very well done.

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http://www.7173mustangs.com/gallery/1_01_07_15_8_53_18.png

 

"I love my Hookers!" and "Get some Strange" probably have a different connotation to non automotive enthusiasts!

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The metal clip goes into the split bushing(that I don't see pictured) that fits over the ball on the frame mount.  The engine bashing floats and moves if the engine torques over.

 

That wouldn't fix the misalignment issue though.  I could assume motor mounts or frame mounts being your issue.  Was the car ever in a wreck?

Thanks for the reply. In photo #6, you can see the metal clip. I may have it installed on the wrong side of the Z bar. It did come apart in my struggle to install it the first time. I have now loosened the bolts that attach the transmission to the cross member, as well as the two motor mount bolts, and the eight bolts that secure where the motor mounts attach.

It was getting dark and that's as far as I could get today. With everything now loosened, how would I go about trying to align the motor in the engine bay to gain more space on the z bar side of the motor?

 

I inspected the motor mounts tonight and could not see any indication of L or R to indicate which side of the motor they go to.  As I recall, when I mounted the mounts to the motor, they could only be installed one way.

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Hi, I emailed you some ideas, maybe they didn't come thru...

Did you look to see if

1 -the fan / water pump is centered between the frame rails

2 - the trans tail shaft centered in the tunnel

Look at these things before you move anything

Is the drive shaft installed, if so is it lined up?

 

You only need 1/4 inch so ...  use some making tape to mark the locations now.

Then scoot the motor or trans or both over a bit, section of 2X2 or 2X4 will work without damaging things.

NOTE... BE CAREFUL UNDER THE CAR, MOVING WEIGHT AROUND... use a longer lever so you are not under the car.

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Hi, I emailed you some ideas, maybe they didn't come thru...

Did you look to see if

1 -the fan / water pump is centered between the frame rails

2 - the trans tail shaft centered in the tunnel

Look at these things before you move anything

Is the drive shaft installed, if so is it lined up?

 

You only need 1/4 inch so ...  use some making tape to mark the locations now.

Then scoot the motor or trans or both over a bit, section of 2X2 or 2X4 will work without damaging things.

NOTE... BE CAREFUL UNDER THE CAR, MOVING WEIGHT AROUND... use a longer lever so you are not under the car.

Don,

I did receive that email. Ty. Something came to mind today. When I attached the motor mounts to the block, it appeared that they were left and right side specific. Looking online this morning I’m finding that both mounts are the same. 

I may have installed an incorrect set of mounts.  Would you confirm that on a 351C both motor mounts are the same.

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The motor mounts are the same left or right but the frame perches are left/right specific

73 Grande H Code. Headman long tube headers, T-5 Transmission, 3.70 Traclok, Lowered 1" all around, Aussie 2v heads w/ 2.19 intake, 1.71 exhaust, screw in studs, full roller cam 608/612 lift 280/281 duration LSA 112, Quick Fuel 750 CFM double pumper, AirGap intake.

 

- Jason

 

 

082-hot-rod-power-tour-2017-1970-1970s.jpg

 

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Now knowing that the left and motor mounts are the same, I believe I received and installed the incorrect mounts. Please take a look at the photos and let me know if you agree that the motor mounts are not correct. It appears the right side motor mount extends further from the block than the left side.

 

 

Left side motor mount. Rubber isolation material extends beyond the steel portion of the mount. Motor mount fits snug to edge of oil pan.

 

 

IMG-8528-480x640.jpg

 

 

 

 

 

Right side motor mount. Rubber isolation material is flush with edge of motor mount.

 

IMG-8533.jpg

 

 

 

 

left side motor mount

IMG-8536.jpg

 

 

 

 

Right side motor mount

IMG-8535.jpg

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Before you get carried away is the motor and trans centered now or close to center  Does to sit level ?

They are standard 65-72 motor mounts , probably import so the rubber sticking out on one more than the other wouldn't surprise me.

 

 

One another note you were looking for some power steering parts tube and bracket I think

Let me know if any of these are what you need

I found two different locator brackets 

008.jpg

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Before you get carried away is the motor and trans centered now or close to center  Does to sit level ?

They are standard 65-72 motor mounts , probably import so the rubber sticking out on one more than the other wouldn't surprise me.

 

 

One another note you were looking for some power steering parts tube and bracket I think

Let me know if any of these are what you need

I found two different locator brackets 

008.jpg

 

Don, 

i measured the center of the tail shaft from the seam at the bottom of the shaft to the edge of the tunnel in an area where the tunnel appeared symmetrical. The tail shaft appears centered. I would think it would be because of the crossmember.  

Could i I accurately measure the motor from each fender to the center of the carb?

As far as sitting level, I have no idea how to check. Presently the car is on jack stands. 

In regards to the p/s brackets, the bracket shown to the right of the indexing bracket, where is that located on the car?

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Before you get carried away is the motor and trans centered now or close to center  Does to sit level ?

They are standard 65-72 motor mounts , probably import so the rubber sticking out on one more than the other wouldn't surprise me.

 

 

One another note you were looking for some power steering parts tube and bracket I think

Let me know if any of these are what you need

I found two different locator brackets 

008.jpg

 

Don, 

i measured the center of the tail shaft from the seam at the bottom of the shaft to the edge of the tunnel in an area where the tunnel appeared symmetrical. The tail shaft appears centered. I would think it would be because of the crossmember.  

Could i I accurately measure the motor from each fender to the center of the carb?

As far as sitting level, I have no idea how to check. Presently the car is on jack stands. 

In regards to the p/s brackets, the bracket shown to the right of the indexing bracket, where is that located on the car?

Both brackets go on the back of the pump, just found two different versions

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The reason for spherical bearing surfaces is that the engine moves relative to the frame-at some point it will always be out of alignment.

 

Either . . . slot the mount on the transmission side to gain clearance, or trim the bar itself a bit. Moving the motor and pulling mounts etc is insanity when trying to fit a reproduced part to a 40+ year old car

http://www.7173mustangs.com/gallery/1_01_07_15_8_53_18.png

 

"I love my Hookers!" and "Get some Strange" probably have a different connotation to non automotive enthusiasts!

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It's been so long and I don't remember if it's possible to install the transmission crossmember backwards.

Mike

__________________________________

Black 1985 GT

Yellow 1973 Mustang Mach 1

Black 2012 5.0 GT, 6-speed, Brembo brakes, 3.73's

Wimbledon White 1966 F-100 Shortbed Styleside, 390ci, Tremec 3550, FiTech EFI

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Before you get carried away is the motor and trans centered now or close to center  Does to sit level ?

They are standard 65-72 motor mounts , probably import so the rubber sticking out on one more than the other wouldn't surprise me.

 

 

One another note you were looking for some power steering parts tube and bracket I think

Let me know if any of these are what you need

I found two different locator brackets 

008.jpg

 

 

Don,

I measured the seam at the bottom of the transmission to both sides of the tunnel, at a location in the tunnel that was symmetrical. The transmission appears centered. I have no idea how to tell is the motor is sitting level. To verify if motor is sitting level, could I measure from inside of each fender to center of carburetor?

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Do you want me to crawl under my car and take some pictures of how it actually is supposed to fit? Not being sarcastic there, happy to do it if you want.

Before you do put it all in there, I recommend drilling out out the bushing holes and replacing the plastic p.o.s bushings with bronze oil impregnated. It will make a huge difference to the clutch operation. I also added ball bearings to the clutch bracket under the dash, Huge difference again. I suggest Mustang Steve's kit, but it need to be trimmed and welded in properly.

Geoff.

Geoff.

 I learn something new every day!

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Here is an attachment that shows the Z bar and linkages where I installed Oilite bushings instead of the plastic ones. 

I'll post some pics later, a bit chilly in the garage today! Also, I have not found my info on Mustang Steve's clutch pedal shaft ball bearing kit, I'll add that if and when I do, or you could Google that. Scott Drake also have a kit that may be easier for you if you want to check that out.

The Oilite bushing are Flanged 3/8x1/2x1/2. You will need to trim off excess length. I also bought one that was listed as FL43-4 which if I remember is 7/16 id x 9/16 od which is what I probably used at the fork push rod pivot for which I actually made a new part and may be why the larger diameter. Been several years now and I don't remember everything I did.

Geoff.

Scan0004.pdf

Geoff.

 I learn something new every day!

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Do you want me to crawl under my car and take some pictures of how it actually is supposed to fit? Not being sarcastic there, happy to do it if you want.

Before you do put it all in there, I recommend drilling out out the bushing holes and replacing the plastic p.o.s bushings with bronze oil impregnated. It will make a huge difference to the clutch operation. I also added ball bearings to the clutch bracket under the dash, Huge difference again. I suggest Mustang Steve's kit, but it need to be trimmed and welded in properly.

Geoff.

Thanks for your replies. I'm not ready to get into anything more at this time, than to properly fit the Z bar. I'd be thankful for a photo of how the z bar should fit. I have no idea of how much, if any, end play the z bar should have between itself and the bracket that is attached to the bell housing. My install caused the 5/8" thick

felt washer located between the z bar and bell housing bracket to be squeezed down to almost nothing. On the frame side, it appears the z bar rest at an angle.

 

Is this correct for that felt washer to be squeezed down so flat. It is acting as a grease seal.

IMG-8486.jpg

thanks

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The felt washer is a seal as the bar and engine side pivot will be moving with engine movement and the frame mount will not.

Does the z bar move OK ... if so either leave it as is or

1 - Move drive train to gain a bit of clearance - you have everything loose... Board and jack under the oil pan to pick up some of the wt and pry on the drivers side frame mount a little bit.... see if it moves easy

OR

2 - cut of grind [ then de-bur ] the end of the bar to get clearance

 

Stanglovers looks pretty tight too

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Stanglovers looks pretty tight too

 Don, I know, but the frame mounts are factory, so are the engine mounts. Only the tailstock mount is repo, so it is possible the tail is off line a bit. This is something on the "check list" for spring when I reinstall the rear axle, springs and I'm also going to get the driveshaft balanced with new Timkin U joints. It is possible the drive line is off and that might cause the fit at the Z bar to be tight. I honestly don't remember what the clearance, if any, was before I pulled the drivetrain back in 2012.

I don't have any problem with clutch activation as it is.

Geoff.

Geoff.

 I learn something new every day!

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Stanglovers looks pretty tight too

 Don, I know, but the frame mounts are factory, so are the engine mounts. Only the tailstock mount is repo, so it is possible the tail is off line a bit. This is something on the "check list" for spring when I reinstall the rear axle, springs and I'm also going to get the driveshaft balanced with new Timkin U joints. It is possible the drive line is off and that might cause the fit at the Z bar to be tight. I honestly don't remember what the clearance, if any, was before I pulled the drivetrain back in 2012.

I don't have any problem with clutch activation as it is.

Geoff.

Geoff, not saying anything is wrong with yours... Just pointing out to him you don't need / want a ton of clearance.

The engine lifts up on WOT and then there might be too much clearance

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Stanglovers looks pretty tight too

 Don, I know, but the frame mounts are factory, so are the engine mounts. Only the tailstock mount is repo, so it is possible the tail is off line a bit. This is something on the "check list" for spring when I reinstall the rear axle, springs and I'm also going to get the driveshaft balanced with new Timkin U joints. It is possible the drive line is off and that might cause the fit at the Z bar to be tight. I honestly don't remember what the clearance, if any, was before I pulled the drivetrain back in 2012.

I don't have any problem with clutch activation as it is.

Geoff.

Geoff, not saying anything is wrong with yours... Just pointing out to him you don't need / want a ton of clearance.

The engine lifts up on WOT and then there might be too much clearance

 Don, yes I agree. Mine has never been a problem, or at least that I've noticed.

 Even if my tailstock is out a fraction, it won't make very much difference at the Z bar mount position. It's just something I want to check when I reinstall the rear axle. However, if a tailstock mount were to be out by a 1/4" or more, then it might have some effect on clearance I would think. Personally I don't think he has a problem to worry about unless the Z bar sticks. I would cut that felt down to about 1/4" thick though, which is about what mine was.

Geoff.

Geoff.

 I learn something new every day!

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Before you get carried away is the motor and trans centered now or close to center  Does to sit level ?

They are standard 65-72 motor mounts , probably import so the rubber sticking out on one more than the other wouldn't surprise me.

 

 

One another note you were looking for some power steering parts tube and bracket I think

Let me know if any of these are what you need

I found two different locator brackets 

008.jpg

 

 

Wow!  Do I spy 4 S-tubes on that Ram Air hood?  

kcmash

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  • 4 weeks later...

It's been so long and I don't remember if it's possible to install the transmission crossmember backwards.

 

I finally got the z bar fitment sorted out. It was an error on my part. I'm embarrassed to tell you that when we installed the engine and transmission I re-installed the crossmember from the C6 transmission. The crossmembeer installed o.k., but held the tail shaft of the transmission up too high, causing the z bar to bind.

Realizing what I had done, I installed the correct crossmember. The Z bar now rotates freely.

Thanks to everyone who replied.

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