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Anyway, I have growing confidence that by the time I replace the studs, and rockers, get preload set, and replace the intake manifold gasket, I'll be in super good shape. Fingers crossed, but we definitely seem to be on the right path here.

 

I still may need to replace the power valve in the carb. Eddie believes he had a 8.5 in there which would really require 17Hg of vacuum to work optimally. I don't expect to get anywhere near that. If i got 14-15Hg and had a 6.5 Power Valve, I think I'd be happy.

 

Not to derail your thread because I know this can be a controversial subject, but...

 

...since the power valve provides fuel to the main circuit, whether it is open or closed it has no effect on idle a/f mixture. My advice is don't get sidetracked with the power valve. Focus on the other issues you have identified.

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73 conv. 460, D0VE large valve heads, Performer RPM manifold, Voodoo 227/233 cam, Holley 950 HP carb, C6 trans, 3.25 trak-loc.

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General consensus is go with DuraSpark, Performance Distributors made to order by the looks of it. Cheaper too! https://performancedistributors.com/product-category/distributors/ford-distributors

I've run MSD 6AL boxes for many years with good success. Be aware that any of the CD boxes that power the coil directly (MSD, Taylor etc) will require the use of an MSD 8920 Tach Adapter to maintain f

I just finished a Duraspark 1 conversion on my 429, used a box and coil from Rockauto and a new custom-curved distributor from Scotty J http://reincarnation-automotive.com/services Seems to run g

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Anyway, I have growing confidence that by the time I replace the studs, and rockers, get preload set, and replace the intake manifold gasket, I'll be in super good shape. Fingers crossed, but we definitely seem to be on the right path here.

 

I still may need to replace the power valve in the carb. Eddie believes he had a 8.5 in there which would really require 17Hg of vacuum to work optimally. I don't expect to get anywhere near that. If i got 14-15Hg and had a 6.5 Power Valve, I think I'd be happy.

Um, ahhh,

 

Perhaps Eddie WAS experiencing 17'' of vacuum @ hot ldle, thus the 8.5'' power valve ?

 

That should be your new target.

 

Boilermaster

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Anyway, I have growing confidence that by the time I replace the studs, and rockers, get preload set, and replace the intake manifold gasket, I'll be in super good shape. Fingers crossed, but we definitely seem to be on the right path here.

 

I still may need to replace the power valve in the carb. Eddie believes he had a 8.5 in there which would really require 17Hg of vacuum to work optimally. I don't expect to get anywhere near that. If i got 14-15Hg and had a 6.5 Power Valve, I think I'd be happy.

 I can comment from my own experience on power valves. My engine produces 18" Hg at 800 rpm idle ( 4 speed manual). That indicates the need for a 8.5 P/V, so I installed one and the car ran like crap. So, talking to "my guy" at the speed shop, he suggested that was the wrong move and to go back to the 6.5 P/V, which i did and it ran like a champ thereafter. I think it will actually depend one YOUR engine's needs, so be prepared to experiment. Buy a couple of extra primary bowl gaskets and bolt seals just to be prepared. You probably won't have to pull the carb to change it as long as you have room underneath to pull the bowl bolts. Lots of paper towel to soak up the gas.

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Geoff.

 I learn something new every day!

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Guys, Excellent advice as always.

 

Tommy - Agree that I definitely don't want to get sidetracked by the power valve. Just mentioned that after all is said and done with my primary repairs, it still may need to be looked at. Definitely bottom of the heap until the vacuum issue is fully resolved. : )

 

Boilermaster - 17Hg would definitely make my day. Sounds like a good target to me based on that logic.

 

Geoff - For sure. I've already got a 4.5 and 5.5 which are probably too small, and I will hopefully never need to use. I'll get a 6.5 and some new gaskets and seals coming. In the worst case scenario I have some extra parts I don't need, but I never mind that too much either.

 

Have a great rest of your weekend guys!

Chris - Born in '73 - Drive a '73

Former Mechanic U.S. Army

1st Infantry Division - The Big Red One

BIG RED MACH 1

Learning a lesson (or three) on the Cleveland every day.

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Guys, Excellent advice as always.

 

Tommy - Agree that I definitely don't want to get sidetracked by the power valve. Just mentioned that after all is said and done with my primary repairs,  it still may need to be looked at. Definitely bottom of the heap until the vacuum issue is fully resolved. : )

 

Boilermaster - 17Hg would definitely make my day. Sounds like a good target to me based on that logic.

 

Geoff - For sure. I've already got a 4.5 and 5.5 which are probably too small, and I will hopefully never need to use. I'll get a 6.5 and some new gaskets and seals coming. In the worst case scenario I have some extra parts I don't need, but I never mind that too much either.

 

Have a great rest of your weekend guys!

....... but you still don't have a choke (I believe), so really, how much money do you want to through at it before just going to a new carb? Just sayin.

Geoff.

 I learn something new every day!

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Guys, Excellent advice as always.

 

Tommy - Agree that I definitely don't want to get sidetracked by the power valve. Just mentioned that after all is said and done with my primary repairs,  it still may need to be looked at. Definitely bottom of the heap until the vacuum issue is fully resolved. : )

 

Boilermaster - 17Hg would definitely make my day. Sounds like a good target to me based on that logic.

 

Geoff - For sure. I've already got a 4.5 and 5.5 which are probably too small, and I will hopefully never need to use. I'll get a 6.5 and some new gaskets and seals coming. In the worst case scenario I have some extra parts I don't need, but I never mind that too much either.

 

Have a great rest of your weekend guys!

....... but you still don't have a choke (I believe), so really, how much money do you want to through at it before just going to a new carb? Just sayin.

 

...Ugh!!! LOL!!!  lollerz

 

I know, I know... I've been looking at the Summit line of carbs with electric choke, and drooling a bit. Reviews are pretty darn stellar. Financially though, I think I need to spend the extra $50 on the 6.5PV and a few gaskets right now, and get it as best I can after the new intake gasket, studs and rocker arms. Then maybe in another month or two go after a different carb. My $400 carb budget this month went to $400 rocker arms and studs instead.

Chris - Born in '73 - Drive a '73

Former Mechanic U.S. Army

1st Infantry Division - The Big Red One

BIG RED MACH 1

Learning a lesson (or three) on the Cleveland every day.

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Anyway, I have growing confidence that by the time I replace the studs, and rockers, get preload set, and replace the intake manifold gasket, I'll be in super good shape. Fingers crossed, but we definitely seem to be on the right path here.

 

I still may need to replace the power valve in the carb. Eddie believes he had a 8.5 in there which would really require 17Hg of vacuum to work optimally. I don't expect to get anywhere near that. If i got 14-15Hg and had a 6.5 Power Valve, I think I'd be happy.

 I can comment from my own experience on power valves. My engine produces 18" Hg at 800 rpm idle ( 4 speed manual). That indicates the need for a 8.5 P/V, so I installed one and the car ran like crap. So, talking to "my guy" at the speed shop, he suggested that was the wrong move and to go back to the 6.5 P/V, which i did and it ran like a champ thereafter. I think it will actually depend one YOUR engine's needs, so be prepared to experiment. Buy a couple of extra primary bowl gaskets and bolt seals just to be prepared. You probably won't have to pull the carb to change it as long as you have room underneath to pull the bowl bolts. Lots of paper towel to soak up the gas.

 

Stanglover,

The higher the P/V the quicker it will open (I know you know this) I like to also look at the P/V restrictor size and see how much fuel it provides via wideband O2 monitor too high a P/V rating and too large of a P/V restriction is going to get ya over rich.

The old school rule of thumb is the P/V should give you 10 extra main jet sizes.

Boilermaster

 

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Anyway, I have growing confidence that by the time I replace the studs, and rockers, get preload set, and replace the intake manifold gasket, I'll be in super good shape. Fingers crossed, but we definitely seem to be on the right path here.

 

I still may need to replace the power valve in the carb. Eddie believes he had a 8.5 in there which would really require 17Hg of vacuum to work optimally. I don't expect to get anywhere near that. If i got 14-15Hg and had a 6.5 Power Valve, I think I'd be happy.

 I can comment from my own experience on power valves. My engine produces 18" Hg at 800 rpm idle ( 4 speed manual). That indicates the need for a 8.5 P/V, so I installed one and the car ran like crap. So, talking to "my guy" at the speed shop, he suggested that was the wrong move and to go back to the 6.5 P/V, which i did and it ran like a champ thereafter. I think it will actually depend one YOUR engine's needs, so be prepared to experiment. Buy a couple of extra primary bowl gaskets and bolt seals just to be prepared. You probably won't have to pull the carb to change it as long as you have room underneath to pull the bowl bolts. Lots of paper towel to soak up the gas.

 

Stanglover,

The higher the P/V the quicker it will open (I know you know this) I like to also look at the P/V restrictor size and see how much fuel it provides via wideband O2 monitor too high a P/V rating and too large of a P/V restriction is going to get ya over rich.

The old school rule of thumb is the P/V should give you 10 extra main jet sizes.

Boilermaster

 

 

 Boilermaster, true. However, I don't have the knowledge and experience to get into P/V restrictor size and jets, but with that knowledge, then perhaps the 8.5 would work with 17-18"Hg. However, the 6.5 works fine for my engine at 18"Hg. The AFR meter showed a good ratio through the power band and a plug read confirms that. Perhaps I should refrain the using the word "experience"!!

By the way, thank you for adding your knowledge to clarify.

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Geoff.

 I learn something new every day!

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Guys, Excellent advice as always.

 

Tommy - Agree that I definitely don't want to get sidetracked by the power valve. Just mentioned that after all is said and done with my primary repairs,  it still may need to be looked at. Definitely bottom of the heap until the vacuum issue is fully resolved. : )

 

Boilermaster - 17Hg would definitely make my day. Sounds like a good target to me based on that logic.

 

Geoff - For sure. I've already got a 4.5 and 5.5 which are probably too small, and I will hopefully never need to use. I'll get a 6.5 and some new gaskets and seals coming. In the worst case scenario I have some extra parts I don't need, but I never mind that too much either.

 

Have a great rest of your weekend guys!

....... but you still don't have a choke (I believe), so really, how much money do you want to through at it before just going to a new carb? Just sayin.

 

...Ugh!!! LOL!!!  lollerz

 

I know, I know... I've been looking at the Summit line of carbs with electric choke, and drooling a bit. Reviews are pretty darn stellar. Financially though, I think I need to spend the extra $50 on the 6.5PV and a few gaskets right now, and get it as best I can after the new intake gasket, studs and rocker arms. Then maybe in another month or two go after a different carb. My $400 carb budget this month went to $400 rocker arms and studs instead.

 I don't blame you, money controls needs more than wants, you do what you have to do at the time.

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Geoff.

 I learn something new every day!

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And.....We're back.....

 

I only have so much time to work on this, but I'm going to take tomorrow off and try to get it all put back together tomorrow and Saturday. Fire her up Sunday morning if all goes well.

 

Here are some photos of the intake removed. She's a squirter! Oil on top of the turkey pan and everywhere else. End gaskets used that everyone suggests not to. You can see that oil was making it out the gasket closest to the firewall. The primary gaskets are literally paper thin and just flaking apart. Crumbling. Probably hadn't really sealed anything in years. I've printed photos on thicker paper.

 

The previous owner also loved his spray paint.

 

20200326-142450.jpg

 

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20200326-143913.jpg

Chris - Born in '73 - Drive a '73

Former Mechanic U.S. Army

1st Infantry Division - The Big Red One

BIG RED MACH 1

Learning a lesson (or three) on the Cleveland every day.

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Wow, spray paint in side the engine! Well unbelievable, what the hell is up with that? Jeez. Pretty damn sloppy.

John - 72 Q Code

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Bout time Big red mach 1,

Being housebound is really boring, 

Expecting a full report on your progress.

 

lollerz  I'll do my best to keep you all entertained this weekend!! Earlier in the week was 1980 rockers with the incorrect studs and Poly Locks. 

 

Today's gift is internal engine paint! Who knows what tomorrow will bring!  :shootself:

Chris - Born in '73 - Drive a '73

Former Mechanic U.S. Army

1st Infantry Division - The Big Red One

BIG RED MACH 1

Learning a lesson (or three) on the Cleveland every day.

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Wow, spray paint in side the engine! Well unbelievable, what the hell is up with that? Jeez. Pretty damn sloppy.

 

Dude, that had to add at least 30 RWHP when it was still fresh.  :P

Chris - Born in '73 - Drive a '73

Former Mechanic U.S. Army

1st Infantry Division - The Big Red One

BIG RED MACH 1

Learning a lesson (or three) on the Cleveland every day.

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All cleaned up. Also cleaned up all the manifold bolt threads and ran a thread chaser down though the holes.

 

20200326-155550.jpg

 

20200326-155556.jpg

 

20200326-175431.jpg

 

20200326-175436.jpg

 

20200326-175442.jpg

Chris - Born in '73 - Drive a '73

Former Mechanic U.S. Army

1st Infantry Division - The Big Red One

BIG RED MACH 1

Learning a lesson (or three) on the Cleveland every day.

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How bout that paint job on that shift linkage too? Sexy, huh?

Chris - Born in '73 - Drive a '73

Former Mechanic U.S. Army

1st Infantry Division - The Big Red One

BIG RED MACH 1

Learning a lesson (or three) on the Cleveland every day.

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Okay. Also forgot to mention that I confirmed that the cam was installed straight up. It was not set 4* retarded. This was a question from before.

 

Another question was "What was the pre load measurement?". Well, in order to measure pre load, you have to have have pre load. They were all just shy of zero lash. You could spin all of the pushrods very easily, however none could move up and down freely, fortunately. All of the push rods look to be in great shape on both ends. The poly locks were effing tight! Very hard to break free. Here's what I think happened...

 

I think the rocker studs were too short, causing the poly locks to sit very low. I think the wrong poly locks were used with the rockers. They seem too wide also and rubbed both inside walls of the rockers. Were they even using poly locks in 1980? I doubt it. When running, the rockers hit the nut on the poly locks and shoved them up against the Allen heads making them extremely tight. I think this also took away any pre load that they had at initial installation.

 

So between next to no pre load, and the intake manifold gasket that was essentially degraded crumbled paper, and also cleaning up/replacing all the vacuum lines when put back together, I have to think my vacuum is going to come up. Hopefully a decent amount. Fingers crossed.

Chris - Born in '73 - Drive a '73

Former Mechanic U.S. Army

1st Infantry Division - The Big Red One

BIG RED MACH 1

Learning a lesson (or three) on the Cleveland every day.

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The way it was put together, I sure wouldn’t trust that the pre load was even set correctly, if at all.

 

As for the turkey pan, I have never installed one with an aluminum intake before. The cast iron intake used one to help keep heat from the carb. The aluminum doesn’t retain heat as much as the cast, so not really needed, unless the manufacturer of your intake recommended it. My intake manufacturer says not to use turkey pan. Just more areas to cause a leak if you ask me. I’m sure you will hear various opinions on this.

 

I’m sure you will have more vacuum when you get it going again. I just hope that the bottom half of your engine wasn’t thrown together like the top half was. Good luck!

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John - 72 Q Code

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Wow. that looks like it was put together by total moron. What a mess and no doubt the main cause of all your problems with vacuum.

On the factory steel intakes, the was an exhaust heat cross-over that went across and under the carb base. It's purposed was to heat the Autolite 4300(or 4300D) carb for better warm up. Without this being blocked off when using a Holley carb (or any other), there is a need for an insulator and steel insert base gasket. I'm just mentioning this because as jpaz said, the turkey pan may not be needed at all under an aluminum intake. The fact one was there may be because of lack of knowledge. All you need is a set of thicker gaskets and "The Right Stuff" I think you can get this in small tubes in the US.

EDIT: this post was interrupted by yet another Windows 10 crash!!

I have a set of Rocket Racing head gaskets I got with a set of "N" heads I bought, then sold. The number on them is R209, listed for the Boss 302 or 351C. Also listed for the 351C is R 211 and R214  Boss351. This is for your reference.

While you have the intake off, take a mirror and a camera (phone) and find the casting code UNDER the intake ports. The date code you show looks like 0 A 7 which would be 1970 January 7th. The casting code letter should be a "N". Mine are D1AE-GA as seen in my pics below. This would give you the info on what heads you have. The N heads are listed as 62cc CC at 11:1 compression ratio.

Your block casting number if you're interested in finding out, are just above the starter. There will also be a partial VIN on the block just below the left side head. You may also need a mirror and camera to get it.

 

IMG-3098-2020-02-13-19-50-52-UTC.jpg

D1AE

 

IMG-3099-2020-02-13-19-50-52-UTC.jpg

GA

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Geoff.

 I learn something new every day!

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When I bought mine it had a Shelby?Blue Thunder aluminum intake and a turkey pan and it smoked some, even though it had good compression on all cylinders. Pulled the intake and the turkey pan was half full of oil< and it had obvious oil wetting in some of the intake ports on the heads. Plus,the intake manifold had obvious wear patterns on the mating surfaces from the ridges on the turkey pan, some could be felt with a finger nail, even though very shallow. I believe this was caused by the expansion coefficient differences of the steel and aluminum. Here is a picture of the wear pattern:

 

Intake-wear-r.jpg

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“If you can't explain it simply, you don't understand it well enough.”

--Albert Einstein

 

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That's interesting to see Don. I"ll take a 2nd look at mine but I definitely don't recall having anything I can feel with a fingernail.

Chris - Born in '73 - Drive a '73

Former Mechanic U.S. Army

1st Infantry Division - The Big Red One

BIG RED MACH 1

Learning a lesson (or three) on the Cleveland every day.

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Geoff,

 

I have 70 heads. I already knew this, but here are the numbers on mine. Ford logo came out blurry, but you can read the rest.

 

20200327-142134.jpg

 

20200327-142153.jpg

 

20200327-142205.jpg

 

20200327-142255.jpg

 

20200327-144944.jpg

Chris - Born in '73 - Drive a '73

Former Mechanic U.S. Army

1st Infantry Division - The Big Red One

BIG RED MACH 1

Learning a lesson (or three) on the Cleveland every day.

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So today I removed all the old short rocker studs. Ran a thread chaser through all the holes. Put the ARP grease on the new studs and installed. Put the push rods back in and installed the rockers. Pulled the spark plugs so I could turn the engine over by hand. Not a whole lot of room due to the fan. I could not turn the crank 90* at a time like you would if this was on a engine stand. I could maybe get 1/4 turn. So did about 20 1/4 turns adjusting each time while I was setting zero lash. Took forever, and I don't care for the results. I think I went too far when using the method of spinning the push rod that everyone else seems to like. I should have just tried to wiggle them up and down. Anyway, again, due to the number of times I went around them, I think I went too far. By the time I added 1/2 turn to set pre load I could tell my geometry was now out of whack. And sure enough it is. (See Photo). So I'm going to break them all free and start over again tomorrow. You can see I'm off now. Also, after my half turn, It was very difficult to turn the engine over by hand again. I sure wish this motor were out and on a stand.

 

20200327-165330.jpg

Chris - Born in '73 - Drive a '73

Former Mechanic U.S. Army

1st Infantry Division - The Big Red One

BIG RED MACH 1

Learning a lesson (or three) on the Cleveland every day.

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The problem may be your push rod lengths, not your method. You never know what the previous owner(s) may have done.

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“If you can't explain it simply, you don't understand it well enough.”

--Albert Einstein

 

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So today I removed all the old short rocker studs. Ran a thread chaser through all the holes. Put the ARP grease on the new studs and installed. Put the push rods back in and installed the rockers. Pulled the spark plugs so I could turn the engine over by hand. Not a whole lot of room due to the fan. I could not turn the crank 90* at a time like you would if this was on a engine stand. I could maybe get 1/4 turn. So did about 20 1/4 turns adjusting each time while I was setting zero lash. Took forever, and I don't care for the results. I think I went too far when using the method of spinning the push rod that everyone else seems to like. I should have just tried to wiggle them up and down. Anyway, again, due to the number of times I went around them, I think I went too far. By the time I added 1/2 turn to set pre load I could tell my geometry was now out of whack. And sure enough it is. (See Photo). So I'm going to break them all free and start over again tomorrow. You can see I'm off now. Also, after my half turn, It was very difficult to turn the engine over by hand again. I sure wish this motor were out and on a stand.

 

Btw. It is not that hard to remove the fan while the engine is in the car. Once you do that you can remove the shroud. Just did that. And i tried turning the engine by hand a few weeks ago with the fan and shroud on so i know how painful it is.

 

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-G930A using Tapatalk

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20160929_171923_edit2_small.jpg

 

1971 M-Code Mach 1 w/Ram Air, 408 stroker, 285/291 0.558" roller cam, Blue Thunder intake, TKO600, Hooker headers with electric cut-offs, FiTech EFI w/ RobBMC PowerSurge pump

Strange center section with Truetrac, 3.5 gear and 31 spline axles, 4-wheel disc brakes

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