Jump to content

Timing frustrations


Go to solution Solved by jpaz,

Recommended Posts

  • Replies 333
  • Created
  • Last Reply

Top Posters In This Topic

Top Posters In This Topic

Popular Posts

Well, you need a choke or cold starts will be an issue. The carb was milled? Not sure what that means. The one thing that I can definitely tell you is that carb needs a hole drilled in each of the b

Msd boxes were the cats meow, but recently they are all made in china.

IF it ain't one thing, it's another. It never seems to stop. That sucks man! One step forward a three back. Something isn't right for sure. I really hope you don't end up pulling the motor for a rebui

Posted Images

I like the idea of everyone taking a stab at where I will end up vacuum wise. I know where I want to be, but don't want to jinx myself, so I won't participate. ;-)

 

Probably no smoke by 5PM though. Will re-set the intake, this afternoon, but will give it overnight to fully cure.

Chris - BIG RED MACH 1

Born in '73 - Drive a '73

Former U.S. Army 63B10-H8

1st Infantry Division - The Big Red One

 

Link to post
Share on other sites

In an earlier post Hemi recommended that you verify that the harmonic balancer hasn't slipped, I would also recommend that you make sure the timing pointer hasn't been bent. This will require establishing TDC on #1 cylinder, with a piston stop tool, to verify both.

 

With a stock cam you should be able to get 12 to 13 inches of vacuum, unless you live in the mountains.

 

 

“If you can't explain it simply, you don't understand it well enough.”

--Albert Einstein

 

Link to post
Share on other sites

It's a good thing I'm not in a rush. Thanks Corona Virus-NOT!! ;-)

 

So my Offenhauser 360 intake does have the ports for the exhaust and I've been told that with this intake it is recommended to use the turkey pan. Fine. I have no problem with that. But I refuse to use these paper, and I do mean paper gaskets. Especially when they come in the box partially torn. Thanks Fel-Pro-NOT!

 

I understand that in using the pan, I don't want a super thick gasket, but there has to be a better alternative to these. The only way I've ever used a gasket this thin before is if I laid down a coating of Copper Spray Gasket before, let it tack for a minute, and then apply a gasket that is this thin.

 

Because I'm using "The Right Stuff" on the ends, and not those stock rubbers, I'd assume I could use something a tad thicker, no?

 

20200329-154837.jpg

 

20200329-154749.jpg

 

20200329-154818.jpg

 

20200329-154814.jpg

Chris - BIG RED MACH 1

Born in '73 - Drive a '73

Former U.S. Army 63B10-H8

1st Infantry Division - The Big Red One

 

Link to post
Share on other sites

Big Red, I'm no expert by a long shot, however I have done the intake on my stock 351C 4V twice now. Last time it was after the second rebuild (long story) and because the engine builder chose to use the rubber end gaskets and of course they leaked oil. I used the Fel-Pro set and yes, the paper gaskets are thin, but what I do is use Permatex 2 non-setting gasket sealer on both the head side and the pan side, putting a small bead around the grooves. I have had zero leaks with mine, which pulls 17-18"Hg. at 800 rpm. I know others have different methods, just saying what worked both times I had to pull and reinstall the intake.

You're a mechanic, so I'm sure you know your stuff, however you're working on a different beast to what you're probably used to.

Good luck with it and I predict 15-16 "Hg. 

The next question will be setting the timing. Does your car still have the Ford factory distributor or something else?

Geoff.

 I learn something new every day!

Link to post
Share on other sites

Big Red, I'm no expert by a long shot, however I have done the intake on my stock 351C 4V twice now. Last time it was after the second rebuild (long story) and because the engine builder chose to use the rubber end gaskets and of course they leaked oil. I used the Fel-Pro set and yes, the paper gaskets are thin, but what I do is use Permatex 2 non-setting gasket sealer on both the head side and the pan side, putting a small bead around the grooves. I have had zero leaks with mine, which pulls 17-18"Hg. at 800 rpm. I know others have different methods, just saying what worked both times I had to pull and reinstall the intake.

You're a mechanic, so I'm sure you know your stuff, however you're working on a different beast to what you're probably used to.

Good luck with it and I predict 15-16 "Hg. 

The next question will be setting the timing. Does your car still have the Ford factory distributor or something else?

 

Okay - Time for a side story.I should change my sig to say "Glorified parts changer" US Army. LOL. 

 

A 63B10 in the Army is wheel and tires, starters, batteries, power steering pumps, glow plugs and glow plug controllers, generators, simple $hit really. We were a "forward" unit. Field fixes. Front lines, "Get it rolling again fast, so we can get the hell outta here" type deal. If it was really broken it went to the next shop up "Rear support". That's where the fun heavy lifting stuff was. I probably did more than I mentioned above, but it's not the good tear down and rebuild stuff. Honestly anyone who learned engines from their dad as a kid is probably better off. 

 

When I got out in Dec. 95 I went to work at a Ford dealer until sometime in 1998. Got to do some engine replacements, timing chains, head gaskets, and all sorts of stuff. But there is a lot of BS in that job too. At the time Ford had a huge ignition switch recall that affected millions of vehicles. After that hit I think I probably did hundreds of those in a 6 month span. That got pretty boring too. Other times, you had to chase down silly warranty issues. Someone would buy a new Taurus for example, and they would bring it in, and say "When I'm driving 15 mph and turning left going over the railroad tracks my car makes a weird noise". And you would have to waste a bunch of time chasing it down if you were even lucky enough to replicate it. Between all the warranty stuff, recall stuff, brake jobs etc. there never really was much interesting work. If anything truly juicy came in the guys that had been in the shop 20 years with seniority got it. 

 

Again, anyone who's dad taught them how to rebuild engines knows far more than me. I didn't have that growing up. Wish I did.  

 

I've always worked on my own stuff though. I had a 1995 Cobra that I liked working on a lot. Last year for the 5.0 for a while. My boat has a 1995 351W in it, and I've done all sorts of things to it, and had to learn a lot about Volvo Penta stern drives. I love my 351W with EFI. Super straightforward. Thank goodness because Ford only did marine engines for a few years. 90% of pleasure boats are Chevy powered. This is my first Cleveland, and yeah, it's certainly got it's oddities. This motor for whatever reason makes me nervous and ask a lot of questions. Anyway, I'll learn those oddities thanks to you guys and all your help. Super appreciated. Seriously, you guys are fantastic! Thanks again all!!!

Chris - BIG RED MACH 1

Born in '73 - Drive a '73

Former U.S. Army 63B10-H8

1st Infantry Division - The Big Red One

 

Link to post
Share on other sites

Back to the ignition question, this is what I had sent previously via PM.

 

Here is absolutely everything I know about the ignition system;

 

Mallory Unilite Distributor Part number 4756701H (Rebuilt and Recurved by Mallory (Year Unknown)) https://www.summitracing.com/parts/maa-4756701

 

Procomp module inside dizzy. https://speedmaster79.com/Unilite-And-E-...ule?page=1

 

Mallory Pro Sidewinder 8mm wires. https://www.summitracing.com/search/part-type/spark-plug-wire-sets?fr=part-type&SortBy=BestKeywordMatch&SortOrder=Ascending&keyword=mallory%208mm%20sidewinder

 

Mallory Coil Part. No. 29216 https://www.summitracing.com/parts/maa-29216

 

Written on a note that had the UPS tracking number that said distributor rebuilt and recurved by Mallory, he has the note that says "16-18 initial. 18-20 mechanical".

Chris - BIG RED MACH 1

Born in '73 - Drive a '73

Former U.S. Army 63B10-H8

1st Infantry Division - The Big Red One

 

Link to post
Share on other sites

Back to the ignition question, this is what I had sent previously via PM.

 

Here is absolutely everything I know about the ignition system;

 

Mallory Unilite Distributor Part number 4756701H (Rebuilt and Recurved by Mallory (Year Unknown)) https://www.summitracing.com/parts/maa-4756701

 

Procomp module inside dizzy. https://speedmaster79.com/Unilite-And-E-...ule?page=1

 

Mallory Pro Sidewinder 8mm wires. https://www.summitracing.com/search/part-type/spark-plug-wire-sets?fr=part-type&SortBy=BestKeywordMatch&SortOrder=Ascending&keyword=mallory%208mm%20sidewinder

 

Mallory Coil Part. No. 29216 https://www.summitracing.com/parts/maa-29216

 

Written on a note that had the UPS tracking number that said distributor rebuilt and recurved by Mallory, he has the note that says "16-18 initial. 18-20 mechanical".

 Big Red, that's an interesting back story. It's nice to learn about other's backgrounds. Thanks for sharing.

As for the ignition, my bad, i should have remembered (getting older is my excuse!!). However, re-posting serves to remind others without digging back through this thread.

Unfortunately, I can't offer a damn thing about Mallory ignitions, but that set-up should be pretty much right on where I have my Ford factory distributor curved to and it pulls like a train. It should run happily at 14-16 initial once everything else is fixed. What you've had to do to your motor is way beyond what I've done. I just know what I've learned from my own messing around and more importantly, from the knowledgeable guys here.

Geoff.

 I learn something new every day!

Link to post
Share on other sites

In an earlier post Hemi recommended that you verify that the harmonic balancer hasn't slipped, I would also recommend that you make sure the timing pointer hasn't been bent. This will require establishing TDC on #1 cylinder, with a piston stop tool, to verify both.

 

With a stock cam you should be able to get 12 to 13 inches of vacuum, unless you live in the mountains.

 

I will indeed verify that. I don't have a piston stop tool,  but I do have a really nice lighted endoscope. https://www.amazon.com/Endoscope-DEPSTECH-Inspection-Megapixels-Smartphone/dp/B01MYTI2HV

 

I can go in via the spark plug hole also, and literally watch the piston achieve TDC and then see where my timing marks are. Pointer is in excellent shape. 

 

I already know that I'm not 180* out as I had my thumb on the hole and felt really good pressure as the piston was coming up. I got my dizzy back in EXACTLY where I wanted it. I'm spot on my #1 position on the cap and have plenty of room to set my advance either direction without my vacuum advance hitting anything. 

 

All in all I am happy with the ignition system. (knock on wood).

Chris - BIG RED MACH 1

Born in '73 - Drive a '73

Former U.S. Army 63B10-H8

1st Infantry Division - The Big Red One

 

Link to post
Share on other sites

Big red mach1,

A visual of TDC would only serve to get you into the ballpark , the piston stop method will get you a lot closer.

The best way is with the head off and a dial indicator.

That is why I suggested the spark knock method and then back it off 2 degrees from there.

Would only do this after you have dialed in the carb, even then you might have to back it down more as the weather warms up more.

if you choose to do this, I suggest you do it with the vacuum advance disconnected (as you don't know how many degrees your vacuum advance provides as of yet.

As previously stated you could set your initial timing @14- 16 btdc and set idle mixture and idle speed and hook up vacuum gauge and SEE what 2 more degrees of advance will give you as far as idle vacuum and idle speed.

Boilermaster

Link to post
Share on other sites

Piston stop tool, Hmmm, I just use a pencil with an eraser on it after making sure the damn rubber won't fall off! Works close enough for me to feel when it reached TDC. I'm sure a fancy tool would be a bit more accurate though.

The reason for using a pencil with an eraser is not to dislodge any carbon.

  • Like 1

Geoff.

 I learn something new every day!

Link to post
Share on other sites

Broke out the scope anyway. More bad news. Piston #1 is damaged. Sorry this won't focus better, but I think you will see enough.

 

20200331150227.jpg

 

20200331150335.jpg

 

20200331143939.jpg

 

20200331143945.jpg

 

20200331144328.jpg

 

20200331143924.jpg

 

20200331150237.jpg

 

20200331150318.jpg

Chris - BIG RED MACH 1

Born in '73 - Drive a '73

Former U.S. Army 63B10-H8

1st Infantry Division - The Big Red One

 

Link to post
Share on other sites

At first I thought it might have been detonation damage, but it looks like he dropped a valve at some point, made the repair and just kept rolling with the piston like that. I have not checked all 8, but 2-3-4 do not look like that. I don't know. Maybe it is detonation damage, but that half moon shape has me thinking valve. Also would think if it were detonation damage it would be more than just #1.

Chris - BIG RED MACH 1

Born in '73 - Drive a '73

Former U.S. Army 63B10-H8

1st Infantry Division - The Big Red One

 

Link to post
Share on other sites

I'll agree, some form of impact damage, but you won't really know until you get the endoscope to focus, or pull the head.

 

I doubt it happened on Eddie's watch. Probably the guy he sold it to dropped a valve, "fixed" it and sent it on it's way. If it did drop a valve, you're going to see some damage on the head as well. Also, if it did, those are forged pistons as the valve would have blown right through a cast unit.

 

 

351-C-001-dead.jpg

  • Like 1

 

 

Link to post
Share on other sites

They are forged pistons. I have a message into Eddie just to check and see if he might know anything. I'm actually hoping he does know the history. I'm almost guessing he might. Of the 16 rockers 15 were old and one was newer, but not "new". Now that rocker was all the way in the back on #8, but if he took them all off at any point, no reason to believe the old rocker that got destroyed wasn't on #1. You will see the newer style rocker on #8 below. 

 

20200321-111219.jpg

Chris - BIG RED MACH 1

Born in '73 - Drive a '73

Former U.S. Army 63B10-H8

1st Infantry Division - The Big Red One

 

Link to post
Share on other sites

Lowered the piston down. Allowed for a bit better zoom. Damage is smaller than it appeared at first. these aren't perfect, but better. And you can see better scale when taking the center of the piston into account. Maybe it is detonation. Eddie said he never dropped anything either.

 

20200331155403.jpg

 

20200331155250.jpg

 

20200331155319.jpg

 

20200331155418.jpg

 

20200331155307.jpg

 

20200331155328.jpg

Chris - BIG RED MACH 1

Born in '73 - Drive a '73

Former U.S. Army 63B10-H8

1st Infantry Division - The Big Red One

 

Link to post
Share on other sites

Big red mach 1,

Sorry man, In the first few photos, that looked really huge, but in the last few , not so bad.

Looks like the old nut down the carb trick.

What are your plans ?

 

Drink...Heavily. :P

 

The reality is that I'm going to need to try to roll with it for a while. My income is going to go to near zero soon, so I don't have much choice. A month ago I would have said it's piston swap time. Now with this virus killing my business, I can't put $25 more dollars into this car. 

 

Whatever this is it happened a while ago. I haven't driven this car 20 miles. so it's probably been like that for quite some time. As long as it's not creating a hot spot it should last for a while. 

 

With all of the other stuff I've found up top, I was already thinking rebuild in 2021. So assuming it lasts that long, and the economy recovers, I won't be off of my long term goals anyway. 

 

My thought is to pull the plug periodically and make sure it's not growing or showing any evidence of cracking. Even though every time I drive it, I'll remember it's there and it will bug the crap out of me.

Chris - BIG RED MACH 1

Born in '73 - Drive a '73

Former U.S. Army 63B10-H8

1st Infantry Division - The Big Red One

 

Link to post
Share on other sites

That sucks man!!

Sorry to learn of this damage. I hope there's no other damage? Cylinder walls? Not to scare you any more than you are already, but take a look while you're in there. If nothing showing, drive it gently for the summer and enjoy it, maybe next winter pull the motor.

  • Like 1

Geoff.

 I learn something new every day!

Link to post
Share on other sites

It's one helluva car in a ton of other aspects. It will all work out.

 

My intent the whole time was to cruise it, jump on it every now and again of course, but not race it. Go to car shows, hang out and have fun with it. All of that can still happen. All will be well in the end.

Chris - BIG RED MACH 1

Born in '73 - Drive a '73

Former U.S. Army 63B10-H8

1st Infantry Division - The Big Red One

 

Link to post
Share on other sites

Ya, what a drag. Feel bad for you, but hopefully you can get through this summer with it. At least you found this out so you can keep an eye on it. Good luck!

  • Like 1

John - 72 Q Code

Link to post
Share on other sites

That dent may work to improve the swirl capability of the chamber and increase power. :whistling:

  • Like 1

20160929_171923_edit2_small.jpg

 

1971 M-Code Mach 1 w/Ram Air, 408 stroker, 285/291 0.558" roller cam, Blue Thunder intake, TKO600, Hooker headers with electric cut-offs, FiTech EFI w/ RobBMC PowerSurge pump

Strange center section with Truetrac, 3.5 gear and 31 spline axles, 4-wheel disc brakes

Link to post
Share on other sites

That dent may work to improve the swirl capability of the chamber and increase power. :whistling:

 

Gotta be worth 20 extra ponies, right?  rofl

Chris - BIG RED MACH 1

Born in '73 - Drive a '73

Former U.S. Army 63B10-H8

1st Infantry Division - The Big Red One

 

Link to post
Share on other sites

Sorry to see it. Do you remember how the plug look when you took it out? Off white with dark spots or any signs of the electrode melting. Definitely something I would keep an eye on until you get around fixing it. Most detonation will leave a more circular mark. Looks like something got in the cylinder. At this point I say stay focus on getting the timing issue resolved and the engine running good and put it on your to do list.

Kilgon

 

 

"The only dumb question is the one not asked"

Link to post
Share on other sites

I agree with Kilgon here. That looks like an impact for sure. I am curious what the bottom side of the head or the valves look like.

73 Grande H Code. Headman long tube headers, T-5 Transmission, 3.70 Traclok, Lowered 1" all around, Aussie 2v heads w/ 2.19 intake, 1.71 exhaust, screw in studs, full roller cam 608/612 lift 280/281 duration LSA 112, Quick Fuel 750 CFM double pumper, AirGap intake.

 

- Jason

 

 

082-hot-rod-power-tour-2017-1970-1970s.jpg

 

Link to post
Share on other sites

Join the conversation

You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.

Guest
Reply to this topic...

×   Pasted as rich text.   Paste as plain text instead

  Only 75 emoji are allowed.

×   Your link has been automatically embedded.   Display as a link instead

×   Your previous content has been restored.   Clear editor

×   You cannot paste images directly. Upload or insert images from URL.

  • Recently Browsing   0 members

    No registered users viewing this page.


×
×
  • Create New...