Need some serious help - What to do ? Mustang Grande 72

Hello guys, I was advised to do this so...

Here's what I have right now :

72 Mustang Grande with 2V 351 Cleveland.

Autolite 2100 carburetor with no kick down link (there's a"vacuum link" only ? Dunno if it's the right word but it's the only link between the carb and the AT)

C4 automatic transmission

I thought in the first place I had a 4V 351C Cobra Jet. That's what the car VIN says (Q code Cleveland), but it appears it's a 2V due to previous owners who I guess changed the engine.

Here's what I'm waiting to receive/I just received :

Because I thought I had a 4V Cleveland, I ordered the following parts :

Ford 4V intake manifold that looks like this :

http://www.7173mustangs.com/gallery/798_13_08_11_2_22_07.jpeg

Old but working Holley 600 CFM square bore carb 1850-3 :

http://193.164.196.40/images/988/9880318114.jpg

http://193.164.196.60/images/986/9863271476.jpg

http://193.164.196.30/images/987/9871794795.jpg

It appears that the carb dimensions correspond to the intake manifold one (without needing an adaptator seal), so that's a great point (we measured).

Same for primaries and secondaries :

Intake primaries width : 40 mm

Intake secondaries width : 50 mm

Carburetor primaries AND secondaries width : 39 mm

So it should match in every point.

Problem is I have a 351C 2V engine... so the intake I just received should not match with the engine ?? I didn't "try" because I'm waiting for the carb to be shipped, and I also have to order some matching intake gaskets.

Someone from this forum told me that Edelbrock sell a special 4V intake manifold that allows you to put on a 2V Cleveland. Is this something I have to buy and use instead of my actual 4V intake that won't work ?

Questions are :

Is it possible to use a 4 barrels carb on a 2V engine ?

Am I forced to buy this Edelbrock special intake (4V intake for 2V engine) ?

What with the kickdown ?? Should I order a kickdown bracket ? Which ?

I currently have no kick down linkage from my Autolite 2V carb to the C4 transmission as I mentionned previously...

Here's what I want to do with this :

I want to get a bit more HP. It currently runs great with the Autolite carb but lacks a bit of punch when I need "more".

I use the car as a weekend car but I want it to run great though. No race, no dragster. I don't really mind about gas mileage in a certain limit.

What do you think of all that ? Is it a good idea to have a 4 barrel carb on a 2V Cleveland ? New intake to buy or it won't work ? What with the kick down ? Why I don't have that kick down thing right now in my engine ?

Beware that :

I'm in France so it's a bit of a mess to order parts here and there (really expensive shipping if I order from too much different stores).

Anyway I'm going to Montreal, CANADA on august 29 and stay there until september 16, now do you know great Mustang/Performance parts shops around Montreal ?

Thanks a lot, you guys rules :exclamation:

Actually, I don't think that carb would work on that intake. It might bolt on but I believe the holes for the air don't line up. That's the good news.

A 600 cfm carb is a pretty good choice for a mild street engine. It has vacuum secondaries which is also a better choice for street driving cars with limited modifications. Since it is a square bore carb (appears to me to be but post up the model number when you get it, it is on the frong of the air horn). It means it will bolt onto most of the available aftermarket manifolds including ones that accept a 4bbl carb but are for the 2v heads.

Here is a good example manifold:

http://www.summitracing.com/parts/EDL-2750/

You are looking for a manifold that operates in your RPM power range. I am making an assumption that you have a more stock cam in the engine. Your operating range is idle to about 5000 or so rpm. Dual plane manifolds are good for this type of operating range. There are also 'single plane' manifolds available, these tend to work better at a higher operating RPM range.

Here is the same manifold only polished:

http://www.summitracing.com/parts/EDL-27501/

Polished won't make you go any faster.. Just takes the money out of your wallet faster.

Other things to consider:

If you are running a points type distributor, upgrade to an electronic setup and a stronger coil.

Go dual exhaust, this will allow the engine to breath a little better. These motors also respond well to headers.

What rear end gear do you have? Many came stock with 2.73. You can get a lot of 'pep' out of the car by going with 3.0 or 3.25 gears. You will get worse gas milage and your top speed will suffer but the car will get going quicker.


Some more ramblings...

I don't have a kick down either. I just use the shifter. Since you have a C4 this should work. Looking at the picture I don't think your carb is set up to work with a ford kick down. Also, your C4 is going to limit how much you want to build the engine up. You should be fine for some minor upgrades but if you decide to go for 'big' horsepower you will need to either get the c4 built for it or go with a different transmission.

The holley won't be a 'bolt on and go' carb. You will, in the very least, need to set the float level, idle speed and mixture. You will also most likely need to look at what jets/power valve/secondary spring is in it and adjust these as well. If you are going to go dual exhaust, have that done 'first' so that you don't have to redo the entire tuning process again. Each part affects the performance of the other and carbs are sensitive to other changes more than most anything else.

If you are using a manual for instructions on replacing the intake manifold, ignore the step about draining the coolant. These manifolds do not have any coolant in them but somehow that part gets left in a lot of different manuals.

yup..i had that same manifold on my 4v cleveland and got a carb for it too find out no carb will fit right besides a spreadbore 4300d style carb....that manifold was made for that carb...you can find plates to make it work..but then again..that little rutt made for emissions on the top will get in the way..and you have to fill it...plus it cutts off a little of the flow from the back barrels cause there too wide....its really a super pain..will save you a ton of trouble getting the summit one for your motor....its much easier too get a 4 barrel manifold for a 2v cleveland from summit and sticking with your 600 cfm carb....cause matching a 4v manifold with a 2v cleveland allways runs into issues...flow issues...you have to be a port matching master...cause the heads on the 4v are much bigger....but long as you dont have a super huge cam.....should run like a top with that 600 cfm carb and the proper 2v manifold...im putting a much bigger cam in mine and moving up too a holley 750...but that 600 should be a set match for a stock 2v cleveland..will be quite peppy too!!

everything said above my post is great info!!

http://www.summitracing.com/parts/WND-7516/

This intake will work perfectlyfor your 2V

Sly,

Not trying to insult you but are you SURE you have the 2V heads and/or block, considering the original engine was supposed to be a "Q" code?

Can you post up the casting numbers on the cylinder head and block? You might need a mirror to see the numbers on the heads if the heads are still on the block and/or in the Mustang. It should be located on the side of the head, under the Intake Port.

The block casting numbers are found on the block under the rear of the right (Passenger Side) cylinder bank.

BT

Thanks for your replies, lots of confusion here. I'm trying to know which engine I have and it's a PITA.

I'm sure the engine is not the original one.

I have the original air filter ("351 4V")

Autolite 2 barrel carb from 72 : MOTORCRAFT D20FUB AHI16

Ford 2V intake manifold from 71 : D1AE-9425-DA

What confuses me is :

I have 2V heads for sure (I read "2" on the block near the heads)

I have the C4 transmission (changed recently so I'm really sure of this) and those usually don't fit 351 Clevelands.

I can't get the engine out for the moment so I can't read the block serial number. It's hidden.

The car is from april 72 and the VIN is 2F0Q178551 so there was the code Q CJ Cleveland inside it at first. Then I guess someone swapped the engine for another one, using spare parts from here and there maybe ? but which engine ??

The car runs great even with the Motorcraft 2 barrel carb, is it possible that it may be a 71 Code H engine (more HP/more compression) ??

I can post some pics.

Hello, agree with BT

Do the heads have a 2 or 4 in the upper corners.

As for if it is a H or Q code block, I don't think that is problem with either one for what you want to do.

Add a correct for your motor 4 bbl intake and carb

Get your dual exhaust system. Do you want to add headers as that would be a good gain over 2 bbl exhaust manifolds and make finding / fitting a system easier.

I don't know about any companies in Canada but you may want to consider getting the exhaust shipped there IF you can get it on the return flight home.

Maximum package size of 60 inches long with 108 inches total can be shipped to France by the postal service. Exhaust would probably be to big. United Parcel Service would be very expensive.

Also if you have 2 bbl heads, you can get the aluminum intake to convert and then that Holley should work.

I may have a used aluminum intake if you have the 2 bbl heads.

Don

I agree with everyone else about the intake manifold, Edelbrock 351C 2V performer for an otherwise stock engine. You might find a good price on a used one on the Network 54,351C forum. Finding someone who is willing to ship to France may be a bit of a problem. A WTB post hear may get results as well. If you use ebay be very careful or you will pay too much. You can manually down shift as WillE does and it will work. If you want the transmission to downshift automatically when you floor the gas pedal, the kick down parts would do that for you. If you want to do that you will need to locate the correct kick down rod for the engine and transmission you have (Don at Ohio Mustangs or others may have the rod). Holley sells a Ford kick down kit for the 1850 carburetor, part number 20-48-1. You will likely need the kick down rod extension, Holley PN 20-41. You may or may not need Holley ball stud assortment, PN 20-2 and ball stud bushing PN 26-103. If you use the kick down it must be properly adjusted. Best of Luck, Chuck

"2" in the upper corners

Believe it or not. If you get under the car on the passenger side with a good light. You not only can see the block numbers but have enough room to sand them if need be. That's how I got mine.

As noted by Don, I too believe that "Q" or "H" Coded block is really a negligible issue based on your stated desires for your Mustang.

As for higher compression, keep in mind that as it relates to the different variants of the Clevelands, compression was dependent in large part on the chamber volume of the heads. ALL 351C 2V heads from 1970 - 1974 had an approximate chamber volume of 76.2CC which equates to approximately a 9.5 compression ratio. The block used does not really affect the ratio.

Actually, the 2V Clevelands have often proven to be much better for "street" performance than the 4V. Hence, the development of a number of 4V intakes to fit the Cleveland 2V heads by the manufacturers. These are not necessarily "special" intakes; they are just manifolds designed for the 2V headed Clevelands.

BT

"2" in the upper corners

Click to expand...

That 2 is stamped on the head itself, not the block, correct? Right next to the valve cover.

So between that number and the current ford 2v manifold it is probably safe to assume you have the 2v heads. Either someone swapped out the entire motor or they swapped on the heads, intake and manifold from a donor.

Was it originally an export car? I would guess if someone took out the original motor (dropped a valve or something) it would have been easier to find a 2v replacement.

It would be interesting to know if it has the 4v exhaust manifolds. Can you get a part number off one of them?

Bonjour Sly,

Quant aux questions de collecteur d'admission... je suis nul en ce qui concerne les mots techniques d'autos en français donc je ne sais pas si cela veut dire "intake manifold" ou non mais je devinais... De tout façon je suis d'accord avec Cobra3073. Peu importe, si le moteur soit Q-code ou non mais je n'ai jamais essayé à mettre un collecteur 4V sur les culasses 2V.

De toute façon, au Canada, si j'avais des questions en ce qui concerne les modifications et surtout les carburateurs j'essayerais Performance Improvements et il y en au Québec à Pierrefonds: Voici l'adresse internet: http://www.performanceimprovements.com/

Je n'ai aucune idée si le personnel à Pierrefonds sont aussi compétent que d'autrepart mais quand j'ai remplacé le Holley sur la mienne il me semblait que le personnel en Ontario était compétent.





Une autre suggestion, ca vaut peut-être la peine d'envoyer un courriel à 72fastback puisqu'il est québécois, il se peut qu'il puisse vous fournir des renseignements plus fiables que moi.

Bonne chance et amusez-vous bien au Québec.

Translation:

Hey Sly,

Regarding your question about the manifold... (hope I got that right as I'm not very good with technical words for autos in French) I agree with Cobra3073. I don't think it matters much if you have a Q code motor or not, I think the cylinder heads are the question. I have to admit I've never tried putting a 4V intake in 2V heads...

As for your question about performance shops in Canada, I'd try Performance Improvements. They have a store about an hour from Montreal at Pierrefonds. Here is the link to their website:

http://www.performanceimprovements.com/

I can't say if the staff at Pierrefonds is as knowledgeable as other branches as I haven't tried that store but when I changed the Holley on my car the staff at the one in Ontario were helpful and knowledgeable.

I would also suggest you personal message 72 fastback as he lives in Quebec and could possibly give you better suggestions for speed shops around Montreal.

Hope you have a good time in Quebec.

The size of the intake ports is much smaller on the "2V" heads (2.02in X 1.65in) and the "4V" intake is 2.5in X 1.75in . It will create a lot of issues as far as performance goes. Highly not recommended. IMHO.

Thanks ! I just ordered that WEIAND intake :

http://www.summitracing.com/parts/WND-7516/

+ carb and intake gaskets

All this should allow me to use the Holley 600 CFM correctly.

Now I'm going to check if I can read the block number... I don't really mind if it's a H code or Q code because they both provide good and different performances, it's just that it's a bit of a mystery about this engine so I need to know I wanna know which engine (or parts) my Mustang has.

Une autre suggestion, ca vaut peut-être la peine d'envoyer un courriel à 72fastback puisqu'il est québécois, il se peut qu'il puisse vous fournir des renseignements plus fiables que moi.

Click to expand...

Merci je vais suivre tes conseils, et contacter 72fastback, si je peux ramener quelques pièces utiles du Québec ce serait super.

Sly,

I think you'll like it. While you have it that far apart, it would be a very good time to inspect your lifters. Check them 1 at a time so as not to misplace your pushrods. They should come out with your fingers or a SLIGHT bit of help. They should be flat and have a circular pattern on the bottom where they have been spinning. If they are dented or don't have that pattern you really need to pull your cam and measure the lobes for wear. This will keep you from having to do it later while troubleshooting performance problems.

Mark

Keep us posted.

pour t'est piece au Quebec voici un liens A Delson, Qc. C'est sur la rive sud de Montreal

http://www.groupenetwork.com/

je suis a 2 heure et demi de montreal et je connais d'autre place. Mais il sont moins specialiser. Je t'envois mon numero de telephone en PM

Lovin this internationale flavor we got going on this forum! ::welcome::