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Re-visiting 3 point seat belt conversions.


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1 hour ago, Bentworker said:

I wanted to give an update on my seatbelt planet order.  
 

Don’t order the universal 3 point 301 style belts like I did.  The retractor and the fixed end of the belt cannot be nested on top of one another (they need to on a Mustang).  They make a different set called the DF13 that is designed for the fixed end of the belt and the retractor end of the belt to nest on top of each other and be secured by one bolt.  Also noteworthy is that 110” was too short, not allowing you to lean forward to the wheel.
 

The 8” shoulder extension was pretty cool.  It lowered shoulder belt to a much more comfortable location.

I have reached out to seatbelt planet to see if they would make me up a DF13 set, but with the 8” shoulder extension.  Also to see if they have a slip tongue instead of the grip tongue which runs into the shoulder loop and keeps the retractor from retracting all the way.

I’ll update when I get to trying seatbelt planet version 2.0

67314FA8-0503-46EF-8E4E-D03DB955367D.jpeg

Great info there Bentworker. I like the 8" drop sash better as it looks much more "finished" the the one Seatbelt Solutions/Wesco sell. I was pretty disappointed with that part of it. I also would have liked a "slip tongue (or tang)" option just like most cars do today. It would be far easier to get ahold of to put the belt on. With bad shoulders, I find it hard to reach back to get the tang. I did try the sleeves that Seatbelt Planet sell as a cover for the drop sash, but I wasted my money. The center buckle strap bolt covers were worth buying however as I picture before. 

Wouldn't it be nice if someone actually made a 3 point belt set that fit and work right for our cars, whichever model one has.

Geoff.

 I learn something new every day!

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9 minutes ago, giantpune said:

Is there a factory point somewhere for the shoulder belt to connect to?  I don't see one.  Hopefully its hiding under the trim.

What model Mustang? 

Perhaps I may suggest going to your profile and add just a few details on your ride.

Geoff.

 I learn something new every day!

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On 5/8/2021 at 6:34 PM, Stanglover said:

Great info there Bentworker. I like the 8" drop sash better as it looks much more "finished" the the one Seatbelt Solutions/Wesco sell. I was pretty disappointed with that part of it. I also would have liked a "slip tongue (or tang)" option just like most cars do today. It would be far easier to get ahold of to put the belt on. With bad shoulders, I find it hard to reach back to get the tang. I did try the sleeves that Seatbelt Planet sell as a cover for the drop sash, but I wasted my money. The center buckle strap bolt covers were worth buying however as I picture before. 

Wouldn't it be nice if someone actually made a 3 point belt set that fit and work right for our cars, whichever model one has.

Can you post a link to pictures of the "slip tongue" you guys are talking about. I don't seem to picture how these look like?

20160929_171923_edit2_small.jpg

 

1971 M-Code Mach 1 w/Ram Air, 408 stroker, 285/291 0.558" roller cam, Blue Thunder intake, TKO600, Hooker headers with electric cut-offs, FiTech EFI w/ RobBMC PowerSurge pump

Strange center section with Truetrac, 3.5 gear and 31 spline axles, 4-wheel disc brakes

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36 minutes ago, Stanglover said:

What model Mustang? 

Perhaps I may suggest going to your profile and add just a few details on your ride.

Its a '73 mach 1.  It has factory lap belts and they have an extra little bend and a slot in them like you could attach an optional shoulder seat belt somehow.

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3 hours ago, tony-muscle said:

Can you post a link to pictures of the "slip tongue" you guys are talking about. I don't seem to picture how these look like?

I don't have a picture handy, but what I mean by it is the tongue that is used in modern cars.  The type that is 100% free to slide along the belt, but typically there is some sort of plastic clip or sewn in "Z" in the fabric to keep it from falling below your reach when the seatbelt isn't worn.  You get in, clip the belt in and the tensioner pulls the belt across your lap and chest free of slack because it is free to slide through the tongue.

The retrofit belts 3 point from Seatbelt Planet use some sort of "grip" style tongue that you have to pull on the shoulder strap to tighten the cross lap section of the belt.  It is very similar to an old lap belt.  If you switch drivers, clothing or seat position you have to loosen or tighten the grip tongue so that you lap belt section is correct.

 

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4 minutes ago, Bentworker said:

I don't have a picture handy, but what I mean by it is the tongue that is used in modern cars.  The type that is 100% free to slide along the belt, but typically there is some sort of plastic clip or sewn in "Z" in the fabric to keep it from falling below your reach when the seatbelt isn't worn.  You get in, clip the belt in and the tensioner pulls the belt across your lap and chest free of slack because it is free to slide through the tongue.

The retrofit belts 3 point from Seatbelt Planet use some sort of "grip" style tongue that you have to pull on the shoulder strap to tighten the cross lap section of the belt.  It is very similar to an old lap belt.  If you switch drivers, clothing or seat position you have to loosen or tighten the grip tongue so that you lap belt section is correct.

 

Got it and I agree. Mine are the same, unfortunately. 

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20160929_171923_edit2_small.jpg

 

1971 M-Code Mach 1 w/Ram Air, 408 stroker, 285/291 0.558" roller cam, Blue Thunder intake, TKO600, Hooker headers with electric cut-offs, FiTech EFI w/ RobBMC PowerSurge pump

Strange center section with Truetrac, 3.5 gear and 31 spline axles, 4-wheel disc brakes

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Posted (edited)
20 hours ago, Bentworker said:

I don't have a picture handy, but what I mean by it is the tongue that is used in modern cars.  The type that is 100% free to slide along the belt, but typically there is some sort of plastic clip or sewn in "Z" in the fabric to keep it from falling below your reach when the seatbelt isn't worn.  You get in, clip the belt in and the tensioner pulls the belt across your lap and chest free of slack because it is free to slide through the tongue.

The retrofit belts 3 point from Seatbelt Planet use some sort of "grip" style tongue that you have to pull on the shoulder strap to tighten the cross lap section of the belt.  It is very similar to an old lap belt.  If you switch drivers, clothing or seat position you have to loosen or tighten the grip tongue so that you lap belt section is correct.

 

A good explanation.

On my VW seat belts, there is a little button through the webbing to stop the tongue or "tang" from sliding too far down. It is very easy for me to reach and use. Wouldn't it be nice if these aftermarket manufacturers just do what the industry is doing. My Seatbelt Solution 3 point also have that grip type tang or tongue or whatever one wants to call it. It's a PITA for sure and hard to reach with a bad right shoulder to reach over and get ahold of.

EDIT:  To help explain, this is what the aftermarket seat belt manufacturers ought to be doing for the tongue/tang thingy. Here are a couple of pics of my VW seat belt tongue thingy. The button is seen to stop the thingy falling all the way to the retractor.

IMG_1812.JPG

IMG_1813.JPG

Edited by Stanglover
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Geoff.

 I learn something new every day!

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Posted (edited)
4 hours ago, giantpune said:

Its a '73 mach 1.  It has factory lap belts and they have an extra little bend and a slot in them like you could attach an optional shoulder seat belt somehow.

Thanks for clarifying your car. If you only have lap belts, then someone has removed the shoulder belts (for the front seats), which attaches to the lap belt at the slot in the tongue/tang. There is a mount up by the quarter window. You can see this if you scroll back through this thread as it is on my 71 Mach 1.

Lots of pictures posted. Look at P2, April 9 for close up of what I think you're talking about.

 

Edited by Stanglover
Added info.

Geoff.

 I learn something new every day!

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20 minutes ago, Stanglover said:

Thanks for clarifying your car. If you only have lap belts, then someone has removed the shoulder belts (for the front seats), which attaches to the lap belt at the slot in the tongue/tang. There is a mount up by the quarter window. You can see this if you scroll back through this thread as it is on my 71 Mach 1.

Lots of pictures posted. Look at P2, April 9 for close up of what I think you're talking about.

 

Is it that square looking hook?  My car has the square-ish hook still there. I always thought those were the hooks you still see in modern day cars for hanging up your suit jacket and dry cleaning. :D

 

Screenshot_20210510_202535.png

Screenshot_20210510_202557.png

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11 hours ago, giantpune said:

Is it that square looking hook?  My car has the square-ish hook still there. I always thought those were the hooks you still see in modern day cars for hanging up your suit jacket and dry cleaning. :D

 

Screenshot_20210510_202535.png

Screenshot_20210510_202557.png

 

Okay, now I see what you're talking about. Well it could be used as a coat hook! If there is not one located as in pic, I suspect it would be for storing the shoulder belt. There was a "deluxe" belt system that could be ordered, but I've never seen one, or there is obviously a design change between 71 and 73. 

On my 71 you can see the hook location and the different tang on the lap belt retractor.

IMG_1746.JPG

IMG_1739.JPG

Geoff.

 I learn something new every day!

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Interesting thread for sure, Geoff. I have the original 3 point belts on the car and although I have a ginger deluxe interor all is ginger but the belts. But that's not the point. Your safety points are true and I will keep an eye on this theme after I put together the car and it's running fine. Your solutions are great and keep the original look, I like it :thumb:

So I do not want to highjack your thread but as I read through I had something in mind... My car in his former assembled state it had these hangers / hooks, too: 

https://secure.cougarpartscatalog.com/d1zz-6561280.html

I thought, they were original to the car for keeping the belts from hanging too low. Aren't they? 

Tim

 

Never drive faster than your guardian angel can fly :runninpony:

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They are for stowing the shoulder belt when it's not in use.

 

 

“If you can't explain it simply, you don't understand it well enough.”

--Albert Einstein

 

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Thanks, Don. Are they an original accessoire to our cars? 

And one more question: 

If I have a Mach 1 with Deluxe interior could I have had color matched belts? 

My car is all ginger deluxe interior originally but has black belts... All other stuff is ginger. 

Tim

 

Never drive faster than your guardian angel can fly :runninpony:

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5 hours ago, timachone said:

Interesting thread for sure, Geoff. I have the original 3 point belts on the car and although I have a ginger deluxe interor all is ginger but the belts. But that's not the point. Your safety points are true and I will keep an eye on this theme after I put together the car and it's running fine. Your solutions are great and keep the original look, I like it :thumb:

So I do not want to highjack your thread but as I read through I had something in mind... My car in his former assembled state it had these hangers / hooks, too: 

https://secure.cougarpartscatalog.com/d1zz-6561280.html

I thought, they were original to the car for keeping the belts from hanging too low. Aren't they? 

Yes Tim, that's the spring wire thingy I mentioned as I have no idea what they were actually called. There used to be a loop of some sort of tape material stitched on the belt which may have been intended to be held by the spring thingy. Honestly, I don't remember exactly how it was supposed to be, mine were all long gone.

By the way, no hijacking here, all good. All this info helps others, which of course is the intent.

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Geoff.

 I learn something new every day!

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Posted (edited)
17 minutes ago, timachone said:

Thanks, Don. Are they an original accessoire to our cars? 

And one more question: 

If I have a Mach 1 with Deluxe interior could I have had color matched belts? 

My car is all ginger deluxe interior originally but has black belts... All other stuff is ginger. 

  bdennis posted on his ginger car early on in this thread and pictured his belts, which are a bit of a mystery as they seem to be all different. I actually don't know if ginger belts were available. I'm sure someone knows.

Edited by Stanglover
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Geoff.

 I learn something new every day!

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NOTE: I added a couple of pics to Bentworker's post above, P3 to show the VW belt tongue/tang thingy and the little button to stop the thingy falling to far down. This is what the aftermarket manufacturers ought to be offering instead of the grip type thingy.

Geoff.

 I learn something new every day!

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41 minutes ago, Stanglover said:

NOTE: I added a couple of pics to Bentworker's post above, P3 to show the VW belt tongue/tang thingy and the little button to stop the thingy falling to far down. This is what the aftermarket manufacturers ought to be offering instead of the grip type thingy.

If you notice in our "new" seatbelt buckle, there is a sliding lock mechanism that locks the buckle position to the belt. If we can wedge this mechanism and force it to stay unlock it will allow the buckle to move up and down. I think it will still offer some resistance so it won't fall all the way to the floor but it may be enough to allow the belt to fully retract. I need to study it and compare to newer cars. I wonder why they are using this old mechanism.

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20160929_171923_edit2_small.jpg

 

1971 M-Code Mach 1 w/Ram Air, 408 stroker, 285/291 0.558" roller cam, Blue Thunder intake, TKO600, Hooker headers with electric cut-offs, FiTech EFI w/ RobBMC PowerSurge pump

Strange center section with Truetrac, 3.5 gear and 31 spline axles, 4-wheel disc brakes

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2 hours ago, tony-muscle said:

If you notice in our "new" seatbelt buckle, there is a sliding lock mechanism that locks the buckle position to the belt. If we can wedge this mechanism and force it to stay unlock it will allow the buckle to move up and down. I think it will still offer some resistance so it won't fall all the way to the floor but it may be enough to allow the belt to fully retract. I need to study it and compare to newer cars. I wonder why they are using this old mechanism.

A good point Tony. Indeed they are behind the times on this, but they probably have thousands in stock to use up. Good point on "fixing it" so it slides easier. I notice that Seatbelt Planet had the webbing "buttons" in their accessories listing. I assume they are in two pieces and the first part would just push through from one side, secured by the second part. Might be worth looking at. I find the belts way better overall, so no complaints in that regard, but for me, just harder to get hold of and pull in one easy movement across my shoulder. I have no plans on changing them....... yet.

Geoff.

 I learn something new every day!

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I got ahold of seatbelt planet and was able to talk them into a semi-custom version of the DF13 belts with an extended sash.  Once they show up I will update.

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My wife bought me a set of three point belts last year. I had fitted them up and had a similar issue as others, with the way the anchor sits, the direction of the male latch piece, and them not retracting fully. 

I was able to extend the belt fully from the retractor, lock the retractor in place, remove the belt and spin it 180°. I had to slide it through the sash and reverse that as well. Easy peasy - that solved the nesting issue and the latch now faces outward. 

The anchor plate is now bent towards the door at say a 45° angle. Not a huge issue, it doesn't touch the door, but a flat plate would be better. I may bring them to work and tweak them in the press brake, but I don't want to damage the powdercoat. 

The belt not retracting fully bothers me, looks like saggy pants. On my retractor, there is a plastic snap-in trim plate. If I remove it, the belt retracts more, but now it's exposed. Current plan is to see if the retractor will fit into the 71 mechanism "boot".  Worst case, I'll use the 72-73 molded plastic unit which is much larger. 

 

 

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2 hours ago, Hemikiller said:

My wife bought me a set of three point belts last year. I had fitted them up and had a similar issue as others, with the way the anchor sits, the direction of the male latch piece, and them not retracting fully. 

I was able to extend the belt fully from the retractor, lock the retractor in place, remove the belt and spin it 180°. I had to slide it through the sash and reverse that as well. Easy peasy - that solved the nesting issue and the latch now faces outward. 

The anchor plate is now bent towards the door at say a 45° angle. Not a huge issue, it doesn't touch the door, but a flat plate would be better. I may bring them to work and tweak them in the press brake, but I don't want to damage the powdercoat. 

The belt not retracting fully bothers me, looks like saggy pants. On my retractor, there is a plastic snap-in trim plate. If I remove it, the belt retracts more, but now it's exposed. Current plan is to see if the retractor will fit into the 71 mechanism "boot".  Worst case, I'll use the 72-73 molded plastic unit which is much larger. 

That sort of sounds like the main issue I had with a set of belts I bought from NPD a couple or so years ago. That if I remember, was the start of this thread before the "revisiting" bit was added. Apart from they were the lift latch style, I found out after the fact that I was apparently sold belts for a vert, not a fastback. In my original post, there was a huge problem with a 180 deg. twist in the shoulder belt and yes, I was able to remove that, but the anchor bar (know as a "C" bar by seatbelt solutions) had that 45 deg. bend facing the door and that for me was unacceptable, so I returned the belts.

The belts I/we now have, leave a lot to be desired, but are way better and safer (I hope) than the 50 year old factory belts. If I was really picky, I could have had those restored, but why?

 

Geoff.

 I learn something new every day!

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6 hours ago, Stanglover said:

That sort of sounds like the main issue I had with a set of belts I bought from NPD a couple or so years ago. That if I remember, was the start of this thread before the "revisiting" bit was added. Apart from they were the lift latch style, I found out after the fact that I was apparently sold belts for a vert, not a fastback. In my original post, there was a huge problem with a 180 deg. twist in the shoulder belt and yes, I was able to remove that, but the anchor bar (know as a "C" bar by seatbelt solutions) had that 45 deg. bend facing the door and that for me was unacceptable, so I returned the belts.

The belts I/we now have, leave a lot to be desired, but are way better and safer (I hope) than the 50 year old factory belts. If I was really picky, I could have had those restored, but why?

 

Mine came from Seatbelt Solutions, probably the same thing NPD sells. I took them apart again tonight, and spun the anchor/ C bar around, so now the bend faces inward, and it falls naturally behind the retractor. Popped the original mechanism out of the boot, gave it a good cleaning, warmed it with a heat gun and the new retractor popped right in like it belonged there. Put it all back together and they fit and work nicely. The boots that came with the kit for the sash and inner belt are hideous, so I left them off. I may end up eliminating the roof sash extension, as it might fall too low in my shoulder. 

 

 

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9 hours ago, Hemikiller said:

Mine came from Seatbelt Solutions, probably the same thing NPD sells. I took them apart again tonight, and spun the anchor/ C bar around, so now the bend faces inward, and it falls naturally behind the retractor. Popped the original mechanism out of the boot, gave it a good cleaning, warmed it with a heat gun and the new retractor popped right in like it belonged there. Put it all back together and they fit and work nicely. The boots that came with the kit for the sash and inner belt are hideous, so I left them off. I may end up eliminating the roof sash extension, as it might fall too low in my shoulder. 

Hemikiller, NPD also sell Retro Belt by name and "other" which are probably Seatbelt Solutions as you say. When I got mine, I thought I was buying from WescoPerformance in Ca, but they turned out to be just a distributor for S/S. What gets me is, looking at all of them, they all look the same, same parts, buckles etc., so who does actually make them? I suspect now, they all buy the same components and just add the webbing to make their own version of the same thing.

I don't understand why the need to re-install the old retractor boots. I had no problems with that. Besides, one of my old ones is broken and not repairable.

I did NOT get a boot for the sash and you're right, the inner belt sleeve is nowhere near a fit for our cars, that's why I bought the 6" cover from Seatbelt Planet and that seems to work ok, but not perfect. As for the drop sash, if you look back at my ugly pic, you can see exactly where it sits. For me it's much better than before.

For others considering buying 3 point belts, make SURE you buy with the LONG "C" bar if you're retro-fitting. None of these conversion type sets are perfect, not even the ones that are supposed to be for "our" car years. Do your research!!!! Ask questions.

Geoff.

 I learn something new every day!

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Funny as I just replaced my factory erector set type today with some I purchased from Summit Racing for 126.99 (pair) for the RetroBelt RB-6573MUSTKT-BL. I wanted to put some shoulder belts in a 67 F100 I am doing and ordered these. I liked them and the "Retro" type buckle that I decided to put them in my 71 and they seem to be working great.

New Belts-1.jpg

New Belts-2.jpg

New Belts-3.jpg

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