Unheard of Timing AFTER TC

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tndt1

Active member
Joined
Aug 18, 2011
Messages
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Location
Biloxi, MS
My Car
1973 white/white/white convertible, 302 V-2
Hey everyone, a new problem has occured with my 302 2v that I have never heard of. I had a problem with overheating and a "Ping" when the engin got hot. I fixed the overheating prob by changing out the radiator and putting in a 190* thermostat.

My timing was set at 8-10* BTC and the car would run pretty good untill it got up to operating temp, then it started to get a terreiable "Ping" I retarted the timing to TDC and the pinging was less, So on a lark I set itabout 15-20* AFTER TDC and the ping has stopped.

I dont have much power but it seems to be running ok.

I tried to time the dist by sound and also by vacume, both were between 6-25* BTC and it still was pinging real bad.

The carb seems to be adjusted ok too.

The only other clue I have is when I time the dist by ear the RPM increases and I can not adjust the carb anywhere below 1000 rpm.

I'm about my wits end, any ideas?? how much am I hurting my engin?

 
Verify #1 at TDC first in case you jumped a tooth on your timing chain. If it did, sounds like a cam replacement time to me. Also, if chain is right pull your valve covers and measure the pushrod travel. this will give you your cam lift measurement. But, sounds like jumped time or the lobes are wore.

 
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Balancer could be shot and the marks are off. Yeah, start with the basics, make sure when you are at TDC the pointer is at TDC on the balancer.

Do you run a vacuum advance? What is your total advance at, say, 2000 rpm? (Once you verify your TDC mark is correct)

 
It is hard to believe the engine is not getting HOT if the timing is really that retared. How does it run when you time it by ear? Is the engine original to the car? If I remember correctly, and I'm not saying I do, there are three different timing pointer locations and three different indexed dampers to go with them. I think the locations are roughly 10, 11, and 1 o'clock positions (1970 and up, 10 and 11, and before 1970, 1 o'clock). It could be a mix-and-match problem. If you can determine when piston #1 is at TDC on the compression stroke you can see where the TDC mark is relative to the timing pointer. This is assuming the outer ring has not slipped. As WillE said it could be the outer ring has changed position relative to the hub.

PS the 1969 and older damper used 3 bolts to secure the pulley to the damper, 1970 and up used 4 bolts. There should be a casting number on the timing cover and the damper. If you can read them it should be easy to tell the general year of the parts. Keep at it. You will figure it out. Chuck

 
After finding TDC. You actually can make your own marks on the damper. Then turn your garage lights off and hit it with your timing light.(myself I use a full strobe light) If there is any deflection in your damper rubber you'll see it as you rev the motor. Just pay attention to the rubber and ring and not the timing marks.

 
Another thing to look at is your distributer gear. After you verify TDC roll the motor running and check it again. May be a worn gear/advance plate.

 
Hey everyone, a new problem has occured with my 302 2v that I have never heard of. I had a problem with overheating and a "Ping" when the engin got hot. I fixed the overheating prob by changing out the radiator and putting in a 190* thermostat.

My timing was set at 8-10* BTC and the car would run pretty good untill it got up to operating temp, then it started to get a terreiable "Ping" I retarted the timing to TDC and the pinging was less, So on a lark I set itabout 15-20* AFTER TDC and the ping has stopped.

I dont have much power but it seems to be running ok.

I tried to time the dist by sound and also by vacume, both were between 6-25* BTC and it still was pinging real bad.

The carb seems to be adjusted ok too.

The only other clue I have is when I time the dist by ear the RPM increases and I can not adjust the carb anywhere below 1000 rpm.

I'm about my wits end, any ideas?? how much am I hurting my engin?
Did this just start out of the blue or was some change just made and this is the result?

Are you running points?

 
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Hey all thanks for the reply,

I checked the timing marks against the tdc on the compression stroke of #1, and found that the pointer showed aprox 6-8* after tdc. about the same spot I have the timing set now (No ping) I would guess that the balancer had shifted huh?

Additional clues: I replaced the timing chain and gears about 6 mons ago so I know there not worn.

I replaced the drivers side head gasket and the distributor about 9 mos ago due to a leak between cyls 7 & 8

On a lark I checked the temp of all the cyls at the plug, I found some diffrences they are

#1 170

#2 200

#3 180

#4 170

#5 240

#6 230

#7 140 ??

#8 130??

Could this mean I have another prob with #'s 7 & 8??

Im gonna run the stang like this for awhile and see if anything else pops up

Thanks guys

Ted

 
My dampner (balancer) shifted back so much it was almost ready to hit the oil pan. Make sure

yours is not doing the same. The rubber cracks when they get old and it starts slipping, time for a replacement dampner.

 
Hey all thanks for the reply,

I checked the timing marks against the tdc on the compression stroke of #1, and found that the pointer showed aprox 6-8* after tdc. about the same spot I have the timing set now (No ping) I would guess that the balancer had shifted huh?

Additional clues: I replaced the timing chain and gears about 6 mons ago so I know there not worn.

I replaced the drivers side head gasket and the distributor about 9 mos ago due to a leak between cyls 7 & 8

On a lark I checked the temp of all the cyls at the plug, I found some diffrences they are

#1 170

#2 200

#3 180

#4 170

#5 240

#6 230

#7 140 ??

#8 130??

Could this mean I have another prob with #'s 7 & 8??

Im gonna run the stang like this for awhile and see if anything else pops up

Thanks guys

Ted
Are these truly temp readings or are they compression test results?, Are you sure you got the cam installed correctly? Whether they are temp or compression readings they are unusual results to say the least. Assuming they are comp readings the widely varying cylinder pressures resulting from an out of phase cam installation could explain why the engine will only run with the timing you indicate and may also explain the erroneous timing indication from the balancer. If they are in fact temp readings I don't know what to make of them.

 
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Even at TDC and the three-fitty-one will have overheating issues. Suprising your engine never melted at the retardness you;re running. Good luck!

 
If they are indeed temperature readings plugs and wires on 7 & 8. They are not firing!

If these are compression readings you have issues with either the head gasket or rings. That may be why the gasket was replaced in the first place cleared the symtom but not the cause.

 
The values I gave were indeed TEMPERATURE readings . I took them with an infered temp gun and pointed it at the wires at the end of the spark plug. I really dont know why I took them I just did on a lark I have no idea what they mean.

OK back to the timing, I did some testing today, I ran the car at 6-8* ATDC with the vacuum line connected, No ping, and the car ran ok, some loss of power but fine for running around town.

Then I ran the car with the timing set at 6-8* BTDC with the vacuum line connected and it ran fine but had alot of pinging under load

Finnaly I ran the car at 6-8*BTDC without the vacuum connected and it ran fine with no pinging.

I then checked the Mech advance and ran the engin up to 3100 RPM without the vacuum connected and got a 12-14* advance

I then checked it with the vacuum connected and the timing advanced toped at 40* at 2200RPM

And ideas fellas???

Ted

PS Thanks Chuck for all your help

 
The only thing short of trying a known good distributor would be to replace the vacuum advance unit. You could try removing the old unit and checking if the return spring has broken by pulling on the arm. It should snap back if the spring is working. In the interim you might try plugging the vacuum advance and setting the initial timing 12-14 degrees and go for a test drive and see how it runs.

 
tndt1,

I'm assuming you have already pulled the plugs on 7&8 to verify that they are inded firing. If so, Check the temperatures at the headers. If those are low as well. You may have an exhaust valve hanging open.

 
Finnaly I ran the car at 6-8*BTDC without the vacuum connected and it ran fine with no pinging.

I then checked the Mech advance and ran the engin up to 3100 RPM without the vacuum connected and got a 12-14* advance

I then checked it with the vacuum connected and the timing advanced toped at 40* at 2200RPM
To be clear, the mech advance test and the vacuum advance test was done with the inital timing set at 6-8btdc. (Not sure if this is 'real' or 'marked' since your balancer is off.)

With just mechanical advance you are saying the timing only went to 12-14 degrees or it went an additional 12-14 degrees?

With vacuum advance you indicate 40 degrees, I have to assume this is total.

Certainly you are pulling vacuum advance faster/higher than you want. There is an adjustment on it.

You probably first need to replace the damper so you know the values are accurate. Depending on how bad it is, the outer ring may be moving each time you run the motor.

Also, tell us more about the distributor. Is it stock? Modified? All additional info will help.

 
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