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Suspension Overhaul


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You will love the Michelin tires. Very cool suspension set up you have. Chuck

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1 hour ago, Galucha said:

Ok I did actually have some footage that kind of illustrates the rear axle movement with the leaf springs. Its hard to tell, but you can see that it was swaying back and forth about 1/2" during hard cornering.

 

 

Another thing I noticed is just how bad these tires are for handling. I love the look of the magnum 500s + BFG radial TAs, but they are really holding the car back unfortunately. In the second part of the video you can see how they are rolling over onto the sidewalls. The good news is I found someone on marketplace near me selling a pair of 18x8 American Racing VN510 wheels with michelin pilot sport 4s tires. Picking those up today, and hopefully I'll find a matching pair of rears in the coming weeks.

I estimate that I'll be able to shave about 46lbs of unsprung weight with these wheels/tires as well:

Old wheels/tires

  • 4 15x8 Wheel Vintiques Magnum 500 wheels - 30lbs per wheel
  • 4 235/60R15 BFG Radial TA - 27lbs per tire

New wheels/tires:

  • 2 18x8 VN510 wheels - 20lbs per wheel
  • 2 18x10 VN510 wheels - 23lbs per wheel
  • 2 245/40R18 Michelin tires - 22lbs per tire
  • 2 285/40R18 Michelin tires - 26lbs per tire

Weight before: 228lbs

Weight after: 182lbs

Weight savings: 46lbs

Great choice on tires. That's exactly what I transition to from the BFG radials as well. You will think it is a different car with how much more grip you will have. You will have to redo the videos... LOL!

20160929_171923_edit2_small.jpg

 

1971 M-Code Mach 1 w/Ram Air, 408 stroker, 285/291 0.558" roller cam, Blue Thunder intake, TKO600, Hooker headers with electric cut-offs, FiTech EFI w/ RobBMC PowerSurge pump

Strange center section with Truetrac, 3.5 gear and 31 spline axles, 4-wheel disc brakes

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1 hour ago, Galucha said:

 

I estimate that I'll be able to shave about 46lbs of unsprung weight with these wheels/tires as well:

Old wheels/tires

  • 4 15x8 Wheel Vintiques Magnum 500 wheels - 30lbs per wheel
  • 4 235/60R15 BFG Radial TA - 27lbs per tire

New wheels/tires:

  • 2 18x8 VN510 wheels - 20lbs per wheel
  • 2 18x10 VN510 wheels - 23lbs per wheel
  • 2 245/40R18 Michelin tires - 22lbs per tire
  • 2 285/40R18 Michelin tires - 26lbs per tire

Weight before: 228lbs

Weight after: 182lbs

Weight savings: 46lbs

I am curious about where you got the tire weight from. From Michelin's website, for the P4S I get:

285/40R18: 29 lbs

245/40R18: 25.7 lbs

https://www.michelinman.com/auto/tires/michelin-pilot-sport-4-s#sizes

 

20160929_171923_edit2_small.jpg

 

1971 M-Code Mach 1 w/Ram Air, 408 stroker, 285/291 0.558" roller cam, Blue Thunder intake, TKO600, Hooker headers with electric cut-offs, FiTech EFI w/ RobBMC PowerSurge pump

Strange center section with Truetrac, 3.5 gear and 31 spline axles, 4-wheel disc brakes

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13 minutes ago, tony-muscle said:

I am curious about where you got the tire weight from. From Michelin's website, for the P4S I get:

285/40R18: 29 lbs

245/40R18: 25.7 lbs

https://www.michelinman.com/auto/tires/michelin-pilot-sport-4-s#sizes

 

Thanks for catching that. I had originally planned on getting a set of continental DWS06 tires but I guess I never updated my notes with the weights for the michelins

Plain Jane | 1971 F Code Coupe 302/C4 Automatic

Goin' to Town Rig | 1971 F100 Ranger XLT LWB 390FE/C6 Automatic

Commuter | 2018 Tesla Model 3 Midrange RWD

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5 minutes ago, Galucha said:

Thanks for catching that. I had originally planned on getting a set of continental DWS06 tires but I guess I never updated my notes with the weights for the michelins

Since I recently did the same swap I had the data handy.

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20160929_171923_edit2_small.jpg

 

1971 M-Code Mach 1 w/Ram Air, 408 stroker, 285/291 0.558" roller cam, Blue Thunder intake, TKO600, Hooker headers with electric cut-offs, FiTech EFI w/ RobBMC PowerSurge pump

Strange center section with Truetrac, 3.5 gear and 31 spline axles, 4-wheel disc brakes

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Test fitted the new wheels and no binding or scrub!

 

They do seem to fill the fenders out better. With 0 backspacing on these there is about 15/16" between the outside lip of the fender and the rim itself. The old wheels had about 1 1/2" between the rim and fender.

 

They do NOT clear the SoT upper ball joint, so I suspect that 8" is about as wide a rim as you can go with 18 inch wheels. Maybe 19s or 20s would clear the ball joint allowing you to run wider. I do still have about a half inch of clearance there though, which is plenty.

 

Will update with rear wheel clearance as soon as I buy them.

PSX_20210909_095242.jpg

PSX_20210909_095741.jpg

PSX_20210909_100314.jpg

 

 

Edit: I should mention that I have granada spindles. The upper ball joint clearance may be different with other spindles.

Edited by Galucha
.

Plain Jane | 1971 F Code Coupe 302/C4 Automatic

Goin' to Town Rig | 1971 F100 Ranger XLT LWB 390FE/C6 Automatic

Commuter | 2018 Tesla Model 3 Midrange RWD

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Interesting. I have 18x8 with 0 BS and have no issues with the ball joint, but I have a different suspension. However, the relative position of the ball joint should be more up to the spindle. I am interested in knowing if the Granada spindles are that different since I have considered them. I can measure the tire/fender clearance on mine and can take a picture of the spindle/tire clearance as a reference. I have the slightly wider 255 PS4 tires so it will be interesting to compare. When AutoX I had a slight rubbing between tire and fender in tight turns when the back of the tire points away from the fender. I trimmed about 1/4" along part of the rear half of the fender lip to cure the issue.

 

Edit: BTW, with the same tire/wheel setup as yours in the rear I added a 1/4" spacer. It could fit a wider spacer but that's as much I can use by keeping at least 10 turns of the wheel lug nut.

Edited by tony-muscle

20160929_171923_edit2_small.jpg

 

1971 M-Code Mach 1 w/Ram Air, 408 stroker, 285/291 0.558" roller cam, Blue Thunder intake, TKO600, Hooker headers with electric cut-offs, FiTech EFI w/ RobBMC PowerSurge pump

Strange center section with Truetrac, 3.5 gear and 31 spline axles, 4-wheel disc brakes

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40 minutes ago, tony-muscle said:

Interesting. I have 18x8 with 0 BS and have no issues with the ball joint, but I have a different suspension. However, the relative position of the ball joint should be more up to the spindle. I am interested in knowing if the Granada spindles are that different since I have considered them. I can measure the tire/fender clearance on mine and can take a picture of the spindle/tire clearance as a reference. I have the slightly wider 255 PS4 tires so it will be interesting to compare. When AutoX I had a slight rubbing between tire and fender in tight turns when the back of the tire points away from the fender. I trimmed about 1/4" along part of the rear half of the fender lip to cure the issue.

 

Edit: BTW, with the same tire/wheel setup as yours in the rear I added a 1/4" spacer. It could fit a wider spacer but that's as much I can use by keeping at least 10 turns of the wheel lug nut.

 

That is interesting. I'll try to get some measurements on the Granada spindle this afternoon. Curious to see how it compares to the stock mustang disc spindles.

 

And thanks for the heads up on the spacer for the rear wheels. 

Plain Jane | 1971 F Code Coupe 302/C4 Automatic

Goin' to Town Rig | 1971 F100 Ranger XLT LWB 390FE/C6 Automatic

Commuter | 2018 Tesla Model 3 Midrange RWD

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Ok here is what I came back with. Not to scale - these are just images I found that I could overlay the measurements on.

 

1834202758_GranadaSpindle1.png.655052c1addaa2dc0a89045d95d477fa.png

 

1484949680_q.thumb.png.41ec57d2d45e022bc0dc82616aae2147.png

Plain Jane | 1971 F Code Coupe 302/C4 Automatic

Goin' to Town Rig | 1971 F100 Ranger XLT LWB 390FE/C6 Automatic

Commuter | 2018 Tesla Model 3 Midrange RWD

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Which Wilwood brake kit do you have? Some of them have offsets.

20160929_171923_edit2_small.jpg

 

1971 M-Code Mach 1 w/Ram Air, 408 stroker, 285/291 0.558" roller cam, Blue Thunder intake, TKO600, Hooker headers with electric cut-offs, FiTech EFI w/ RobBMC PowerSurge pump

Strange center section with Truetrac, 3.5 gear and 31 spline axles, 4-wheel disc brakes

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3 hours ago, tony-muscle said:

Which Wilwood brake kit do you have? Some of them have offsets.

These are actually just Granada brake rotors and calipers.

Plain Jane | 1971 F Code Coupe 302/C4 Automatic

Goin' to Town Rig | 1971 F100 Ranger XLT LWB 390FE/C6 Automatic

Commuter | 2018 Tesla Model 3 Midrange RWD

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35 minutes ago, Galucha said:

These are actually just Granada brake rotors and calipers.

ok. Could the Granada rotors bring the wheel closer?

20160929_171923_edit2_small.jpg

 

1971 M-Code Mach 1 w/Ram Air, 408 stroker, 285/291 0.558" roller cam, Blue Thunder intake, TKO600, Hooker headers with electric cut-offs, FiTech EFI w/ RobBMC PowerSurge pump

Strange center section with Truetrac, 3.5 gear and 31 spline axles, 4-wheel disc brakes

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Something seems off. My tire is about 1.5" from the outside fender edge. The picture shows about 1 3/4 but the molding is about 1/4". Then, if you see on the ball joint side there is almost a 1" gap.

My wheels are 18x8 with zero BS and my tires are 255/45R18

 

20210909_224822.jpg

20210909_225517.jpg

Edited by tony-muscle

20160929_171923_edit2_small.jpg

 

1971 M-Code Mach 1 w/Ram Air, 408 stroker, 285/291 0.558" roller cam, Blue Thunder intake, TKO600, Hooker headers with electric cut-offs, FiTech EFI w/ RobBMC PowerSurge pump

Strange center section with Truetrac, 3.5 gear and 31 spline axles, 4-wheel disc brakes

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10 hours ago, tony-muscle said:

Something seems off. My tire is about 1.5" from the outside fender edge. The picture shows about 1 3/4 but the molding is about 1/4". Then, if you see on the ball joint side there is almost a 1" gap.

My wheels are 18x8 with zero BS and my tires are 255/45R18

 

 

Ok had to wrap my head around this for a while, but I think I've got it figured out. The only way you could have more clearance than me on BOTH the fender and ball joint side is if:

A - The Granada brake rotor "hat" is thicker than the Wilwood one, which pushes the wheel out further to the fender.

and 

B - The distance from the ball joint to the "stub" that the rotor rides on is narrower on the Granada spindles, which places the wheel closer to the control arms.

 

PSX_20210910_104955.thumb.jpg.8d839ae8b1ae096f4a8848f348bfef46.jpg

 

Alternatively, the Granada spindles could have more positive camber actually built into their design, which also would pull the wheel closer to the upper ball joint I think. Wouldn't know for sure unless I pull them off and were able to measure all of the angles in detail.

 

I think that makes sense. I don't have plans on ever running wider than 18x8 on the fronts, so it doesn't really make a difference to me, but it could be some very useful info for someone with a similar Granada setup who is looking to run wide wheels.

 

 

Plain Jane | 1971 F Code Coupe 302/C4 Automatic

Goin' to Town Rig | 1971 F100 Ranger XLT LWB 390FE/C6 Automatic

Commuter | 2018 Tesla Model 3 Midrange RWD

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Actually I hadn't considered another possibility, which is that the SoT upper control arms could just be longer.

Plain Jane | 1971 F Code Coupe 302/C4 Automatic

Goin' to Town Rig | 1971 F100 Ranger XLT LWB 390FE/C6 Automatic

Commuter | 2018 Tesla Model 3 Midrange RWD

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I am with you. There has to be something different in the Granada spindle. I hope someone in this forum can shed light on the subject. It will be nice to see side-by-side pictures. Hard to make conclusions based on our pictures, but it appears that the spindle leg to the upper ball joint is more angled in my picture than yours.

I don't think a long UCA should be an issue since that will also push the wheel out. The issue seems to be the location of the upper ball joint on the spindle. Like you say, they may have more camber built in and/or the spacing is different.

In any case, that won't matter to you as long as you can align your car to the newer specs. You have a great new suspension and with those tires you will have a very good handling car.

What are your alignment numbers for camber and caster? Right now I am at -0.5 camber and 5 caster, but I may eventually increase the camber to -1.0.

Edited by tony-muscle

20160929_171923_edit2_small.jpg

 

1971 M-Code Mach 1 w/Ram Air, 408 stroker, 285/291 0.558" roller cam, Blue Thunder intake, TKO600, Hooker headers with electric cut-offs, FiTech EFI w/ RobBMC PowerSurge pump

Strange center section with Truetrac, 3.5 gear and 31 spline axles, 4-wheel disc brakes

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47 minutes ago, tony-muscle said:

I am with you. There has to be something different in the Granada spindle. I hope someone in this forum can shed light on the subject. It will be nice to see side-by-side pictures. Hard to make conclusions based on our pictures, but it appears that the spindle leg to the upper ball joint is more angled in my picture than yours.

I don't think a long UCA should be an issue since that will also push the wheel out. The issue seems to be the location of the upper ball joint on the spindle. Like you say, they may have more camber built in and/or the spacing is different.

In any case, that won't matter to you as long as you can align your car to the newer specs. You have a great new suspension and with those tires you will have a very good handling car.

What are your alignment numbers for camber and caster? Right now I am at -0.5 camber and 5 caster, but I may eventually increase the camber to -1.0.

Yeah I'd be curious as well to see what the exact differences are. If anyone has a junk mustang disc brake spindle they'd be willing to part with, I'd be happy to do an in depth comparison. 

 

Current alignment specs are the same as yours. Getting 5 degrees of caster was a little tricky, but we got there by adjusting the length of the UCA heim joints. I think -1 of camber would be pretty good for track use, but -.5 gives a good compromise for street driving. Plus if you have the camber adjustment plates instead of the round eccentric, you can find out what combination of plates give you various camber settings and quickly swap them out at track without needing an alignment rack, which is pretty nice.

Plain Jane | 1971 F Code Coupe 302/C4 Automatic

Goin' to Town Rig | 1971 F100 Ranger XLT LWB 390FE/C6 Automatic

Commuter | 2018 Tesla Model 3 Midrange RWD

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Very exciting day as the rear wheels and tires came in. The front and rear spacing is about as perfect as I could ask for. The clearance between the wheel and fender lip is almost exactly the same as the front wheels (15/16"), although I may have to roll the fenders as these tires have a taller cross section and may rub.

 

On the back side, I have at least 1.5" of clearance to the shock mount bracket. These wheels have +12mm of backspacing, so I'm glad I went with them.

 

I think I will look at getting some hub centric rings made to close the gap between the axle hub (72.6mm) and the wheel center bore (63mm).

 

Will be getting some more video footage next week after I get the tires mounted and balanced.

PSX_20210917_153445.jpg

PSX_20210917_153523.jpg

PSX_20210917_153545.jpg

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Plain Jane | 1971 F Code Coupe 302/C4 Automatic

Goin' to Town Rig | 1971 F100 Ranger XLT LWB 390FE/C6 Automatic

Commuter | 2018 Tesla Model 3 Midrange RWD

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Another clearance check after getting the rear tires mounted. Will definitely need to roll the fenders, as the inner lip is making contact with the tire at about 1.5" of suspension travel. I know I have exactly 2.87" of rear suspension travel at full compression, so rolling them should get me plenty of additional clearance.

 

I will say it's very close with 285s, so I bet 275s would not have any issues on these wheels. Will be borrowing a fender rolling tool this weekend to get that done.

PSX_20210918_122841.jpg

PSX_20210918_122807.jpg

PSX_20210918_122854.jpg

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Plain Jane | 1971 F Code Coupe 302/C4 Automatic

Goin' to Town Rig | 1971 F100 Ranger XLT LWB 390FE/C6 Automatic

Commuter | 2018 Tesla Model 3 Midrange RWD

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Ok have a concern regarding wheel centering that maybe someone can help me with. Right now I'm using these lug nuts I bought on summit.

https://www.summitracing.com/parts/gor-21183et

The extended shank fits snugly into the wheels, which in turn helps to center them when I install them onto the car. I believe this would be a lug-centric setup?

 

Would there be any benefit to getting hub-centric rings to center the wheel instead, or would that just be unnecessary? My thought is that if I don't get any vibration at speed with my current setup, I shouldn't need to get hub-centric rings. Trying to get the safest setup and wondering which system is better.

Plain Jane | 1971 F Code Coupe 302/C4 Automatic

Goin' to Town Rig | 1971 F100 Ranger XLT LWB 390FE/C6 Automatic

Commuter | 2018 Tesla Model 3 Midrange RWD

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