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Ignition switch question


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I started asking about this earlier but every once in a while I'll run into a not start condition. When I mean not start I mean when I turn the key into the 1st position the dash comes up and the fuel pump primes (I'm fuel injected) but when I go to start its like someone removed the battery from the car. All the power is still there though.

This would be after I've driven the car for awhile. After letting it sit I will eventually fire up fine. I want to say it's heat related but I'm not 100% sure. 

I have a CVR mini torque starter with the solenoid attached. 

I have a terminal block under my dash that has my Holley sniper, hyperspark dizzy and CD box all connected to the cranking wire off my ignition switch.

I bought a new ignition switch being this one is original guessing it might be it? 

Also, it was a factory 4 speed and is now a 5 so there is no reverse lock for the column. What position should that part of the colum be rotated at? Is that only for the key lock or could that have something to do with it also?

I don't think my starter is getting heat soaked. Like I said if I turn the key to crank it doesn't make any noise at all to start but power is there...

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How do you have your starter wired? Do you use the original solenoid to power the solenoid on the starter?

 

 

“If you can't explain it simply, you don't understand it well enough.”

--Albert Einstein

 

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Not knowing how your stater is wired, I'd say the next time it happens, use a test light to ensure you have battery power at the starter, and power to the solenoid when turning the key to *start*. Something like this is usually a dirty/poor cable connection problem, missing grounds, etc. You could try wiggling the wires as well, see if it starts. 

Worst case, it's the starter. 

 

 

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3 hours ago, Don C said:

How do you have your starter wired? Do you use the original solenoid to power the solenoid on the starter?

CVR mini torque starter has 2/0 wire going directly to the battery and the small terminal which I think is a jumper to the solenoid on the starter is soldered to the red/blue strip wire that was on the factory solenoid. 

20210802_175426.jpg

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You'll have to figure out a way to see if the small wire from the red/blue stripe that runs to the solenoid has 12 volts on it at the solenoid when the ignition switch is in the start position, such as a light or meter jumpered from it to a location where you can see it while turning the key.

If you don't have voltage at that point you'll need to determine if you have voltage coming out of the ignition switch on the red/blue stripe wire.

 

 

“If you can't explain it simply, you don't understand it well enough.”

--Albert Einstein

 

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I think that wire runs back to the ignition switch so maybe I can tap from there? If this is the case why does it work 90% of the time? Or seemingly only give me an issue when hot?

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You need to troubleshoot it to find out for sure where the problem is. If you are getting 12 volts at the starter solenoid when it is hot, with the key in start, that means the problem is in the starter or starter solenoid. If not, the problem is in the ignition switch or between the switch and solenoid.

 

 

“If you can't explain it simply, you don't understand it well enough.”

--Albert Einstein

 

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Check that all the battery and starter connections are clean. Do you by any chance have a battery switch in the terminal? If so, make sure it is clean.

20160929_171923_edit2_small.jpg

 

1971 M-Code Mach 1 w/Ram Air, 408 stroker, 285/291 0.558" roller cam, Blue Thunder intake, TKO600, Hooker headers with electric cut-offs, FiTech EFI w/ RobBMC PowerSurge pump

Strange center section with Truetrac, 3.5 gear and 31 spline axles, 4-wheel disc brakes

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3 minutes ago, Don C said:

You need to troubleshoot it to find out for sure where the problem is. If you are getting 12 volts at the starter solenoid when it is hot, with the key in start, that means the problem is in the starter or starter solenoid. If not, the problem is in the ignition switch or between the switch and solenoid.

Roger that Don, next time it happens I'll be sure to keep a meter with me to check.

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3 minutes ago, tony-muscle said:

Check that all the battery and starter connections are clean. Do you by any chance have a battery switch in the terminal? If so, make sure it is clean.

No switch on the terminal. Everything is brand new on this.

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Red/blue wire goes through the neutral safety switch, at least for automatics.  For manuals, it is jumpered.  I bring this up as it is another possibility for failure (jumper plug).

Most people have the small wire from the starter attached to the large starter plug on the starter solenoid, rather than tapping into the red/blue wire.  It could be that there simply isn't enough wire to supply both the starter solenoid and the starter at the same time when the engine bay is hot (resistance of wires increases with heat).

Let me check your shorts!

http://midlifeharness.com

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2 minutes ago, midlife said:

Red/blue wire goes through the neutral safety switch, at least for automatics.  For manuals, it is jumpered.  I bring this up as it is another possibility for failure (jumper plug).

Most people have the small wire from the starter attached to the large starter plug on the starter solenoid, rather than tapping into the red/blue wire.  It could be that there simply isn't enough wire to supply both the starter solenoid and the starter at the same time when the engine bay is hot (resistance of wires increases with heat).

I like we're this is going because it makes a lot of sense. I just need to understand the jumper idea? 

I'm not using the factory "S" "I" block. My mini starter has a solenoid on it. As mentioned earlier, I have direct power from the starter to battery and the solenoid directly to that red/blue wire. Is this not correct? What would I need to bypass/ jump?

I have a TKO 600 and don't recall any neutral safety switch? I don't believe the factory 4 speed had one either? Can anyone else confirm?

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You are correct in that your tranny doesn't have a NSS.  However, the wiring for the backup lights and NSS are still there.  So...for manual transmissions, one has to jumper the two NSS lines (one input to the NSS, the other output) so that the signal goes to the starter solenoid, or, in your case, the starter.  There's a 4 pin plug devoted to the NSS/BU wiring, which can be a point of failure. 

However, standard Ford wiring also has the red/blue wire provide a full 12V to the coil when cranking.  Bypassing the starter solenoid completely (I believe that is what you're stating you're doing) won't provide that capability. 

Let me check your shorts!

http://midlifeharness.com

cactus.jpg.92e5d9d8700abc0ed60c8ccb3426248e.jpg

 

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7 hours ago, midlife said:

You are correct in that your tranny doesn't have a NSS.  However, the wiring for the backup lights and NSS are still there.  So...for manual transmissions, one has to jumper the two NSS lines (one input to the NSS, the other output) so that the signal goes to the starter solenoid, or, in your case, the starter.  There's a 4 pin plug devoted to the NSS/BU wiring, which can be a point of failure. 

However, standard Ford wiring also has the red/blue wire provide a full 12V to the coil when cranking.  Bypassing the starter solenoid completely (I believe that is what you're stating you're doing) won't provide that capability. 

So the only two wires I'm using from the original starter solenoid is the red/blue I mentioned and the 12V fused link that I have going to a power distribution block off the battery. Everything else is wrapped up and tucked away. I didn't need the coil wire since I'm using the full hyperspark ignition with my Sniper. So would the guess be here that the solenoid on the starter is getting too hot. Or maybe that red/blue wire is causing higher resistance? 

With regards to the NNS. I did locate the NNS on the TKO which is on the drivers side rear. Right now the connector is not connected to anything. If I wanted to use it what would I connect it to? If I don't want to use it do I just jumper the two wires together? What does the system think it is in its current state not connected to anything?

My reverse light is just a two wire. Guessing the auto cars had 4. 2 for reverse and 2 for NNS? 

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5 hours ago, 73' mach 1 said:

So the only two wires I'm using from the original starter solenoid is the red/blue I mentioned and the 12V fused link that I have going to a power distribution block off the battery. Everything else is wrapped up and tucked away. I didn't need the coil wire since I'm using the full hyperspark ignition with my Sniper. So would the guess be here that the solenoid on the starter is getting too hot. Or maybe that red/blue wire is causing higher resistance? 

With regards to the NNS. I did locate the NNS on the TKO which is on the drivers side rear. Right now the connector is not connected to anything. If I wanted to use it what would I connect it to? If I don't want to use it do I just jumper the two wires together? What does the system think it is in its current state not connected to anything?

My reverse light is just a two wire. Guessing the auto cars had 4. 2 for reverse and 2 for NNS? 

I went from a C6 to the TKO600 .I have the TKO NSS connected to the original NSS harness. I don't remember exactly how I did it. I think I used this adapter to the TKO NSS pigtail: https://www.summitracing.com/parts/RFW-PG-052. I think I then solder the wires of the Ron Francis adapter to a connector from a OEM NSS wire harness to create an intermediate wire harness. This intermediate wire harness then connects to the OEM connector. I tried to be fancy doing this way but you could just wire the pigtail from the TKO directly to the NSS OEM wires.

20160929_171923_edit2_small.jpg

 

1971 M-Code Mach 1 w/Ram Air, 408 stroker, 285/291 0.558" roller cam, Blue Thunder intake, TKO600, Hooker headers with electric cut-offs, FiTech EFI w/ RobBMC PowerSurge pump

Strange center section with Truetrac, 3.5 gear and 31 spline axles, 4-wheel disc brakes

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Yes, they are both just two wires. For the NSS just connect one of the red/blue wires to one terminal on the Tremec NSS, and the other red/blue wire to the other terminal.

 

 

“If you can't explain it simply, you don't understand it well enough.”

--Albert Einstein

 

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21 minutes ago, Don C said:

Yes, they are both just two wires. For the NSS just connect one of the red/blue wires to one terminal on the Tremec NSS, and the other red/blue wire to the other terminal.

I'll have to look at the wires I tucked away at the battery. There are 2 red with blue? I have one going to the solenoid of my starter.

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The red/blue wire runs through the stock neutral safety switch between the ignition switch and the starter solenoid. If the contacts on the NSS aren't closed when the transmission is in neutral (or jumpered together) the solenoid will not be energized. You will need to find the connector that connects the wires to the stock NSS and either connect them to the Tremec NSS or jumper them together. I strongly recommend that you use the NSS on the Tremec. They are there for a reason, and called SAFETY for a reason. I knew a mechanic that had one of his sons helping him, asked the son to crank the engine while he watched from the front of the car, car was in gear, started and pinned the mechanic between the bumper and garage wall,  broke both legs and messed up his knees, and he almost lost his business. Not to mention how his son must have felt.

Use the NSS!!!!

Edited by Don C

 

 

“If you can't explain it simply, you don't understand it well enough.”

--Albert Einstein

 

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53 minutes ago, Don C said:

The red/blue wire runs through the stock neutral safety switch between the ignition switch and the starter solenoid. If the contacts on the NSS aren't closed when the transmission is in neutral (or jumpered together) the solenoid will not be energized. You will need to find the connector that connects the wires to the stock NSS and either connect them to the Tremec NSS or jumper them together. I strongly recommend that you use the NSS on the Tremec. They are there for a reason, and called SAFETY for a reason. I knew a mechanic that had one of his sons helping him, asked the son to crank the engine while he watched from the front of the car, car was in gear, started and pinned the mechanic between the bumper and garage wall,  broke both legs and messed up his knees, and he almost lost his business. Not to mention how his son must have felt.

Use the NSS!!!!

Agreed. Could I just put the TKO NSS in series with the ignition solenoid red/blue wire? 

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4 hours ago, Don C said:

The red/blue wire runs through the stock neutral safety switch between the ignition switch and the starter solenoid. If the contacts on the NSS aren't closed when the transmission is in neutral (or jumpered together) the solenoid will not be energized. You will need to find the connector that connects the wires to the stock NSS and either connect them to the Tremec NSS or jumper them together. I strongly recommend that you use the NSS on the Tremec. They are there for a reason, and called SAFETY for a reason. I knew a mechanic that had one of his sons helping him, asked the son to crank the engine while he watched from the front of the car, car was in gear, started and pinned the mechanic between the bumper and garage wall,  broke both legs and messed up his knees, and he almost lost his business. Not to mention how his son must have felt.

Use the NSS!!!!

Looked into it and it looks like I'm going to have to run that NSS through a 12V relay. 

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Doesn't the NSS on the Tremec provide connection between the two terminals on the switch when the transmission is in neutral? 

 

 

“If you can't explain it simply, you don't understand it well enough.”

--Albert Einstein

 

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13 minutes ago, Don C said:

Doesn't the NSS on the Tremec provide connection between the two terminals on the switch when the transmission is in neutral? 

Yes. That's how I have it wired.

20160929_171923_edit2_small.jpg

 

1971 M-Code Mach 1 w/Ram Air, 408 stroker, 285/291 0.558" roller cam, Blue Thunder intake, TKO600, Hooker headers with electric cut-offs, FiTech EFI w/ RobBMC PowerSurge pump

Strange center section with Truetrac, 3.5 gear and 31 spline axles, 4-wheel disc brakes

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19 minutes ago, Don C said:

Doesn't the NSS on the Tremec provide connection between the two terminals on the switch when the transmission is in neutral? 

Yes when the trans is in neutral the switch shorts. It was suggested by MDL to use a relay.

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Personally, I wouldn't use a relay. To me that's introducing a potential failure point into a circuit that should function fine without it. The solenoid windings shouldn't overload the switch contacts. The windings in the solenoid coil should only draw around 4 amps. If the switch can only handle 6 amps or less using a relay would become mandatory.

 

 

“If you can't explain it simply, you don't understand it well enough.”

--Albert Einstein

 

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