Down the "more power is always better" rabbit hole?

detritusmaximus · Apr 27, 2023

Ah, Spike said the magic woid and wins a hunnet dollahs!....and this:

Cleveland Crush · Apr 27, 2023

detritusmaximus said:
Ah, Spike said the magic woid and wins a hunnet dollahs!....and this:

I wonder what the average life span of a motorcycle chariot racer is...

detritusmaximus · Apr 27, 2023

It's not years...but laps!

Animal Lawyer · Apr 28, 2023

I agree completely. I started my (semi-fast) driving career (reign of terror??) in the ‘70s rallying triumphs and the graduated to Porsches “racing each other” at Lime Rock on pca track days.

Power is useless without control.

That said, having excess power and the ability to exercise control over the vehicle is the best. Unfortunately, verts are not allowed on the track anymore, even on club days.

Stanglover · Apr 28, 2023

Spike Morelli said:
There used to be a saying, and a bumper sticker that read...."Ban low performance drivers, not High-Performance cars". Having just said that, power is fun to have, but a responsibility and competence is required. Here's my analogy......In the movie "Ben Hur", in the chariot race, the race was won because Juda Ben -Hur knew how to control his horsepower, he didn't just let them go, to show off. Driving skill and restraint make the difference. They ALL had four horsepower.

Well said!
I love the Ben Hur movie............ I have it on VHS!!!

bill1101 · Apr 28, 2023

I kinda think there is a fine line between what is fast enough and what is to slow. My 72 vert is way fast, still trying to get the thing to hook up right, but runs insane when hooked. My 63 Galaxie feels lazy and I am definitely not happy with it. To each his own. Never anything wrong with a little more horsepower

c9zx · Apr 29, 2023

bill1101 said:
I kinda think there is a fine line between what is fast enough and what is to slow. My 72 vert is way fast, still trying to get the thing to hook up right, but runs insane when hooked. My 63 Galaxie feels lazy and I am definitely not happy with it. To each his own. Never anything wrong with a little more horsepower

Gotta love the Fastback 19631/2 Galaxies. The first fast car I rode in was a 19631/2 Fastback, 427, 2x4s, 4 speed. I was 9 and was hooked. Got any pictures of the Galaxie? Chuck

Stanglover · Apr 29, 2023

detritusmaximus said:
Ah, Spike said the magic woid and wins a hunnet dollahs!....and this:

THAT'S insane!!

bill1101 · May 2, 2023

Chuck,
not yet, I got the hedders on and got a tach, and gauge set from Holman Moody and thats installed. I have The HM valve covers on, but the cast HM air cleaner is a weird design and I am having hood clearance issues. Getting ready for a local, non professional car show so may have some picks when I get everything squared away

Tnfastbk · May 2, 2023

If you are not careful chasing that rabbit you will end up on other other side of the street/race spectrum. Remember that it cost money to revert back to street as well. There is a fine line and if you cross it you will take the fun out of driving our cars. I had to make some changes to be able to drive in traffic and such with out all the bucking and surging associated with "gotta have more". But it sure was fun at WOT. In the end its up to you. Just remember at some point, tenths cost thousands.

LloydB · May 3, 2023

Tnfastbk said:
If you are not careful chasing that rabbit you will end up on other other side of the street/race spectrum. Remember that it cost money to revert back to street as well. There is a fine line and if you cross it you will take the fun out of driving our cars. I had to make some changes to be able to drive in traffic and such with out all the bucking and surging associated with "gotta have more". But it sure was fun at WOT. In the end its up to you. Just remember at some point, tenths cost thousands.

Yes sir, guy traded me a 6-71 equipped bowtie car for a stock '66 Couple back in the 90's. That bowtie was great during acceleration but he wasted $10K ('90s dollars) on an engine was terrible from, idle to 3,000 or in traffic.

bill1101 · May 4, 2023

I have definately been down this hole before. When I was a kid I had a 65 mustang with a high winding 289 in it. It ran low 13's at 120 MPH. I had traction issues even then. I bent a valve and instead of redoing the heads, I put a 351C in it. A lot of work and money. Had to notch the shock towers and since I don't weld I had to farm it out. Custom hedders that crossed the 4 and 8 cylinders under the oil pan into the opposite collector. I found a late 4 bolt main block and early closed chamber heads from a wrecking yard, long story. End of the day, I never got it just right and ended up selling the car. If I knew then what I know now, I would have just rebuilt the heads. I still think a little more HP is never a bad thing.

Spike Morelli · May 4, 2023

Well, as long as we're posting our engines, these are mine....all in boats, NDBA legal Blown Gas Hemi Chrysler, NDBA legal Unblown Fuel 327 Chevys, 425 Olds, 427 H/M Medium Riser, and a completely polished up "63 406 H/M with BBM aluminum heads. See, I'm into different makes and I built all of these for myself. Note they all run Magnetos, why veer from what works? My street car....stock 351c.

bill1101 · May 4, 2023

Quite the collection, very nice. I would give my left, uhhhh arm for an original H/M 427 or 406.

mrgmhale · May 5, 2023

Customer: I want my car to go faster.

Shop Owner: How fast do you want to go?

Customer: I don't know for sure. I just want to go faster. What do you suggest?

Shop Owner: Bring a lot of cash. The faster you want to go the more it is going to cost. And the cost gets incrementally higher for further increases in the speed you want.

Customer: Wow, so the faster I go the faster my money goes also? Not just more money, but more money faster?

Shop Owner: Now you're getting the idea, kind of. It gets more costly for the added speed you "want" to achieve. You may not achieve all you want, so there goes even more money chasing the dream... And, it never comes back unless you are really lucky.

I learned long ago a basic truism about high performance vehicles. No matter how fast your car is, there is always someone right around the corner who was willing to spend just enough more money who can beat your car (and sometimes, insultingly enough, it may beat your car for less money spent). I am not saying it isn't fun having a high performance car that is blindingly fast. It is fun. But, someone, somewhere, is able and willing to go just a bit further, and suddenly you no longer have the fastest car around. I decided it is a fool's game to try to have the fastest car around, and opted to go for really decent performance, while retaining a high degree of reliability and reasonable comfort at the same time - and to have the car look as cool as possible without going too far out. I never had a need for stacked front spoilers or multiple rear wings. And, I also feel there is such a thing as too many stripes, or wheels that are too large in height and/or width. I also avoided jacking up the rear of my various pony/muscle cars, as all that does is shift the already too little amount of weight from the rear to the already too heavy front of a car - making it ever harder to get traction on a hard launch. Just the way I see things...

mrgmhale · May 5, 2023

bill1101 said:
I have definately been down this hole before. When I was a kid I had a 65 mustang with a high winding 289 in it. It ran low 13's at 120 MPH. I had traction issues even then. I bent a valve and instead of redoing the heads, I put a 351C in it. A lot of work and money. Had to notch the shock towers and since I don't weld I had to farm it out. Custom hedders that crossed the 4 and 8 cylinders under the oil pan into the opposite collector. I found a late 4 bolt main block and early closed chamber heads from a wrecking yard, long story. End of the day, I never got it just right and ended up selling the car. If I knew then what I know now, I would have just rebuilt the heads. I still think a little more HP is never a bad thing.

More cubic inches, more flow in heads, and manifolds, and more money, hoping to achieve significantly more horsepower. "Somebody stop me!" Once on that slippery it sure is hard to get back off...Speed shop owners enjoy seeing folks struggle with where to draw the line when it comes to speed equipment. They sure liked to see me come around back in my teen days! More was never enough. Good news. bad news, I had a great job that paid well. Seems to me that was better news for our local speed shops than for me... Not every new piece of equipment translated into more detectable or measurable speed increase. That tendency seems to hold true even today. But, now I have gobs more money I could throw at the effort to go ever faster. Luckily for me I pretty much outgrew that kind of behavior. Making certain we have enough to remain comfortably retired has a sobering effect on how much faster is fast enough. heh heh.,.. I am truly amazed I lived past 19.

Spike Morelli · May 5, 2023

mrgmhale, you are so right. A word to those reading this,.....just like gunslingers in the old West, there's always someone willing, and able, to show you just who's faster. On the street, it surely is a fool's game. On the strip, you are the loser by hundredths of a second. The fastest guy in the bunch doesn't always win a competition. Now, modifying a vehicle to IMPROVE performance, either engine, appearance, or handling- wise, is a good thing. Just know, that as long as your vehicle wears a license plate, it lives within a known margin of what is inteligently streetable. Go beyond , and you won't hear the people quietly saying to each other,..."What was he thinking...".I'm not talking to anyone of you in particular, but I do know that Art, is knowing when to stop. Ponder all possible meanings of that last statement.

T-Tom · May 6, 2023

mrgmhale said:
Customer: I want my car to go faster.

Shop Owner: How fast do you want to go?

Customer: I don't know for sure. I just want to go faster. What do you suggest?

Shop Owner: Bring a lot of cash. The faster you want to go the more it is going to cost. And the cost gets incrementally higher for further increases in the speed you want.

Customer: Wow, so the faster I go the faster my money goes also? Not just more money, but more money faster?

Shop Owner: Now you're getting the idea, kind of. It gets more costly for the added speed you "want" to achieve. You may not achieve all you want, so there goes even more money chasing the dream... And, it never comes back unless you are really lucky.

I learned long ago a basic truism about high performance vehicles. No matter how fast your car is, there is always someone right around the corner who was willing to spend just enough more money who can beat your car (and sometimes, insultingly enough, it may beat your car for less money spent). I am not saying it isn't fun having a high performance car that is blindingly fast. It is fun. But, someone, somewhere, is able and willing to go just a bit further, and suddenly you no longer have the fastest car around. I decided it is a fool's game to try to have the fastest car around, and opted to go for really decent performance, while retaining a high degree of reliability and reasonable comfort at the same time - and to have the car look as cool as possible without going too far out. I never had a need for stacked front spoilers or multiple rear wings. And, I also feel there is such a thing as too many stripes, or wheels that are too large in height and/or width. I also avoided jacking up the rear of my various pony/muscle cars, as all that does is shift the already too little amount of weight from the rear to the already too heavy front of a car - making it ever harder to get traction on a hard launch. Just the way I see things...

Back in the day, we old racers had pretty much the same saying. Just used fewer words to get there.
"Speed cost money. How fast do you want to go?"

Spike Morelli · May 6, 2023

I have to appologize for my tone. As I re-read my postings I think I sound a lot like I'm preaching, and I don't mean to. I've had a 351c project in the works for a long while now, that I've had to start all over again with the block, but hopefully, not too long from now, I'll be able to post up details of the build. It is a fresh engine, top- to- bottom, with a handfull of modifications and aftermarket components, but all is for improvement, not necessarily max dyno numbers. I think there will be quite a few people enjoying not only the process, but the thinking behind the task. Anyway, the new block is enroute as we speak, to the machine shop ( block #3 ). I personally have waited 3 months on the #2 block only to find it was unuseable, and now, with the new block, I need to order yet another set of pistons, so the cost kinda doubled, but now is the time to do it right. Machattack, here on the boards, recently completed his '71 Mach, and he's done some engine and suspension mods. We grab a morning cup of coffee now and then. No doubt we'll want to compare notes in " an impromptu acceleration survey". Photo is me working on a customer's FE.

Spike Morelli · Feb 11, 2024

giantpune said:
Yep. Grocery getters, socrer mom SUVs, and economy shitboxes from today are every bit as fast as the performance model muscle cars 50 years ago. Thats what progress and innovation look like.

You can get a 73 car to go that fast and handle as well as a current muscle car. The recipe is gonna look something like
Replace your engine and transmission with something newer.
Swap over to fuel injection.
Replace your suspension with coil overs and IRS.
Enough brakes to stop all that power.
Basically replace everything thing besides the body and interior.

Quickest path these days is an LS swap, with boost. Yes, you can even LS swap old fords if you hold your nose while doing it. Whipple or a pair of angry snails, dyno tune, and you're set.

Giantpune,....Heiracy! The General motors LS engine is indeed a good engine, BUT..... Bowing to swapping one into your '71-'73 Mustang is a show of a lack of respect for what you've got, like putting a mini-skirt on Grandma, but, go right ahead. .......... I'll gladly take that Cleveland off your hands !

Down the "more power is always better" rabbit hole?

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