351 c starting issues

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Thanks to all of you for looking at this with me.  I wish we were all located close enough for me to buy pizza and beer to debug this thing.

I have converted back to points and an original coil.  Will try a new start here soon.

Kcmash

 
I just did a little research into the Pertronix III and I may have found the problem. We may have been sold the WRONG model for our application.

Pertronix list a #71281D for Ford small block up to 1974 and when I went on a suppliers site, it shows correct for the '71 Mustang V8.

This dose NOT have the two plates and although it doesn't show installation, it appears it would screw on to the original points plate.

Perhaps the whole time, I amongst others, have been using the incorrect model and likely sold to us by vendors who don't know any difference.

Here's the parts I found. However the 71281, bottom pic, dose have the two plates with the crappy plastic bushing. 

Damn this get confusing! Two with similar numbers, both listed for Ford V8's

I'd definitely go for the 71281D If I were ever tempted to change from the Ignitor II...……. which is not likely any time soon.

Geoff.

Oh! Happy Easter to all, if it's not too late.

 
OK,

Thanks for the information.  Yep, mine had the 2 plates and a lot of float.  So as I said, I converted back to points and it fires right up and runs with no problems.

Got the idle set to  around 1000.  Got the timing set to 7 BTDC,  I can hear the cam lobe in the idle, it moves under its own power.  I even had a chance to listen for any off noises.

I did discover that the drain for the heater core works great as I do have a leak in the heater core.( Yippee!)

I also discovered an error in my wiring as I struggled and struggled to get the car in reverse and thought it may be time to pull the shifter or at least re-align.  Then I realized my mind was screwed up enough to think reverse was to the left and back instead of to the left and forward.

She was running a little rich too, so I need to read up on proper setting of the carb.  Maybe more idle mix screw input and less throttle plate setting.  I have read that a properly tuned Holley should idle on the metering plate idle circuits alone.  How far do you all crack your throttle plates for idle?

Anyway.  A happy day for run time with the engine, and a big thanks to the forum help.  Summit Will get a call tomorrow to see if I can return all the Pertronix Upgrades I bought.

 
I knew from your posts there was a problem with the P3, thanks for that, you saved me from buying one. Also, thanks for posting the pictures, I can clearly see the plastic bushing/spacer located between the two metal plates. It's hard to understand why anyone would do that. I would have thought an electrical engineer would have designed it, but someone that doesn't have a clue must have come up with that cobbled together mess.

 
I knew from your posts there was a problem with the P3, thanks for that, you saved me from buying one. Also, thanks for posting the pictures, I can clearly see the plastic bushing/spacer located between the two metal plates. It's hard to understand why anyone would do that. I would have thought an electrical engineer would have designed it, but someone that doesn't have a clue must have come up with that cobbled together mess.
Click to expand...
Don, you are so right, what a cobbled mess! This is exactly why I had my issues with that model and returned it.

I was an automotive prototype specialist before I retired. I can't count the number of time engineers came up with the dumbest ideas imaginable, then try to convince them they're wrong. It doesn't happen until you PROVE them wrong. 

 I returned my P III back in about 2014 and clearly pointed out the design fault. I wish I'd taken video of when it was on the distributor machine, but I didn't unfortunately. If only Pertronix engineers had taken a look at the DuraSpark construction, they might have hit the jackpot!

So, I have to wonder if the other 72181 D model would work as good as the P II as it dose not have that stupid plastic bushing thing?

 
OK,

Thanks for the information.  Yep, mine had the 2 plates and a lot of float.  So as I said, I converted back to points and it fires right up and runs with no problems.

Got the idle set to  around 1000.  Got the timing set to 7 BTDC,  I can hear the cam lobe in the idle, it moves under its own power.  I even had a chance to listen for any off noises.

I did discover that the drain for the heater core works great as I do have a leak in the heater core.( Yippee!)

I also discovered an error in my wiring as I struggled and struggled to get the car in reverse and thought it may be time to pull the shifter or at least re-align.  Then I realized my mind was screwed up enough to think reverse was to the left and back instead of to the left and forward.

She was running a little rich too, so I need to read up on proper setting of the carb.  Maybe more idle mix screw input and less throttle plate setting.  I have read that a properly tuned Holley should idle on the metering plate idle circuits alone.  How far do you all crack your throttle plates for idle?

Anyway.  A happy day for run time with the engine, and a big thanks to the forum help.  Summit Will get a call tomorrow to see if I can return all the Pertronix Upgrades I bought.
Click to expand...
So glad you're getting on top of it and got it running better. Go buy a P II. I think your Flamethrower coil will be ok with it. Set your plug gap around .045" and personally, I like the Autolite 24's in mine.

 
I looked up the -D model, the catalog says it is for dual point distributors.
Click to expand...
 Don, thanks. I did not see that the "D" was for dual point distributors. Maybe I just missed that as I was in a bit of a hurry. Turkey Easter supper was calling!

I guess, thinking about it, D would indicate Dual. My bad!

Geoff.

 
One thing about it, it looks better than the "correct" one. Too bad, P3 has some nice features. If I were determined to have one I would make my own adapter to fit the stock breaker plate.

I've decided to go a different route, FiTech with timing control, probably a DuraSpark distributor with locked advance, although I may see if I can get a TFI distributor to work, maybe with DuraSpark internals. I'll get it running with points and then see what electronic distributor I can get to work. Maybe make a phasing adjustment out of the DuraSpark centrifugal advance.

 
Glad you are getting sorted - this thread will be useful to anyone else making a change -- I looked at mine ... not sure if anyone has any opinion on the Accel 8410c superstock ?



.

 
One thing about it, it looks better than the "correct" one. Too bad, P3 has some nice features. If I were determined to have one I would make my own adapter to fit the stock breaker plate.
Click to expand...
 So right Don, It's a total shame that the Pertronix people have not seen the problem and figured it out for themselves. Perhaps not enough people have complained to make the change worthwhile to them. Perhaps not enough people even KNOW there is a very real problem with this set-up.

I also think there is good amongst the bad on the P 3 and I really don't think it would take too much imagination to fit a module to a stock points plate. The problem I do see is the post and spring that, on a stock plate, hold the two together. Not a problem with a P1 or 2 as those fit where the points would be. The p3 as it is, fits right where the post and spring is. Would it work if mounted the opposite way round? Perhaps, perhaps not.

 
I have the P2 in my '73 351C and '71 429Cj, no issues...

 
Last edited by a moderator:
OK,

Thanks for the information.  Yep, mine had the 2 plates and a lot of float.  So as I said, I converted back to points and it fires right up and runs with no problems.

Got the idle set to  around 1000.  Got the timing set to 7 BTDC,  I can hear the cam lobe in the idle, it moves under its own power.  I even had a chance to listen for any off noises.

I did discover that the drain for the heater core works great as I do have a leak in the heater core.( Yippee!)

I also discovered an error in my wiring as I struggled and struggled to get the car in reverse and thought it may be time to pull the shifter or at least re-align.  Then I realized my mind was screwed up enough to think reverse was to the left and back instead of to the left and forward.

She was running a little rich too, so I need to read up on proper setting of the carb.  Maybe more idle mix screw input and less throttle plate setting.  I have read that a properly tuned Holley should idle on the metering plate idle circuits alone.  How far do you all crack your throttle plates for idle?

Anyway.  A happy day for run time with the engine, and a big thanks to the forum help.  Summit Will get a call tomorrow to see if I can return all the Pertronix Upgrades I bought.
Click to expand...
Sorry to hear about the heater core, a job for another day. Try changing the initial timing to 14-16 degrees initial advance  (34-36 total mechanical). Check float levels, have .020-.030 of the primary transfer slot exposed and the secondary just cracked (no slot exposed), re-adjust mixture screws. If it runs better drive it 5-10 miles, shut it down and let it cool enough to pull a spark plug and see what it looks like. The carb runs on the "idle circuit" during light cruise until 2500 RPM or so. Fuel is supplied by the mixture screw holes and the transfer slot during idle and light cruise. Chuck

 
Started her up tonight to adjust the Carb.  I may have gone a bit rich on the metering jets.  What Idle RPM do you use?

With P3



kcmash

First trip around the block tonight!  What a milestone!

 

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