351C engine ID?

[INPete]

So I haven't officially taken delivery of my 73 vert quite yet. It's been a logistics nightmare. Anyways, I am anticipating an engine build for probably late this year for next spring. I came across an engine, and not sure if the seller is giving me good information or not. He told me the casting number is D2AE-CA and the date code is 1K12. He is telling me he has never heard it run, and it has sat in his garage for 20+ years. It does turn over, so it is not locked up. It is described to me as a 351 Cleveland 2 barrel, and the heads supposedly do have the "2" on the front corners. This is what I found on the net for this engine code from enginelabs.com

D2AE-CA – 1972-1974, 1971-1974, 351 Cleveland small-block, 4-bolt mains, High Output, Cobra Jet, Boss

Not sure if previously someone stole the heads off this engine? Does the seller not know what they have? Too many variables, but if it is the block that enginelabs says it is, is it worth it for me to just grab it?

 

[Hemikiller]

The D2AE-CA casting was used from around April 1971 on the on the new for '71 351CJ engine, and on all 351Cs from 72 forward, through end of production in 1974. The castings could be machined for either 2 bolt mains (H-code 2 barrel engine) or for 4 bolt mains, for the Q and R code 4 barrel engines. There's no advantage of 2 bolt vs 4 bolt on a Cleveland, they are both equally as strong.

As you're finding out, some of the information on the internet regarding the 351C engine is "incomplete" to be gentle.

1K12 casting date is Oct 12, 1971 so it is a 1972 model year engine. Casting dates for the heads are in the rocker valley.

 

[INPete]

Ok, I thought maybe I stumbled upon a hidden gem. I'm planning a mild build anyways, so I think this core should work for my application. Thanks for the info.

 

[MAD IRISHMAN]

Just because it has that casting number doesn't necessarily mean it's a 4-bolt main. Ford had a tendency to use what ever was available at the time of the build. Only clear way to tell is to drop the pan. I respectably disagree that a two bolt main is as strong as a 4 bolt. Why would Ford go through all the trouble of making 4 bolt main caps and machining the block if they weren't? If we're talking about street machines that is likely to be the case that a 2 bolt main block would suffice. But for all out competition a 4 bolt is de rigeur!

 

[Stanglover]

On the subject of 2 versus 4 bolt, any Cleveland block can be machined for either as we all know. So, if one has a 2 bolt block and a set of 4 bolt caps, the block can be drilled and tapped for the extra bolts. These bolts I believe are only 5/16-18, I'm not totally sure on that, but they are no bigger than 3/8". They also are tapped straight in. so they have little to no strength effect, unlike the Chevy 4 bolt that are tapped at an angle except of course the main cap bolts..
From what I have read, and I'm far from an expert on engines by a long shot, the main purpose of the smaller extra bolts was to stop the caps "fretting", i.e. moving sideways under load.
If I had a choice and was fortunate to find a set of 4 bolt caps, I'd have them installed on the three center caps only. I believe I'm right in saying the end caps are NOT drilled for the extra bolts.

 

[Sheriff41]

All the caps are 4 bolt on the 4-bolt main blocks. The outer bolts are smaller, as you mention.

 

[Spike Morelli]

On the subject of 2 versus 4 bolt, any Cleveland block can be machined for either as we all know. So, if one has a 2 bolt block and a set of 4 bolt caps, the block can be drilled and tapped for the extra bolts. These bolts I believe are only 5/16-18, I'm not totally sure on that, but they are no bigger than 3/8". They also are tapped straight in. so they have little to no strength effect, unlike the Chevy 4 bolt that are tapped at an angle except of course the main cap bolts..
From what I have read, and I'm far from an expert on engines by a long shot, the main purpose of the smaller extra bolts was to stop the caps "fretting", i.e. moving sideways under load.
If I had a choice and was fortunate to find a set of 4 bolt caps, I'd have them installed on the three center caps only. I believe I'm right in saying the end caps are NOT drilled for the extra bolts.

I have some experience with many makes of engines. You are correct in stating that Ford's outer bolts on their 4-bolt caps are to control "fretting", in the same way that many high-perf blocks will also have dowels, or , pins, to locate and help the caps from moving. A great example of pinning are the Pontiac blocks, which have NO cap registers. The caps are bolted down to a flat webbing with two main bolts to hold them down and dowels, or pins , to hold their location.
It's interesting that you bring up the Chevrolet 4-bolt caps. Even with 4 bolts, the small blocks almost always require the mains Line-Honed to size when rebuilding. You'd think those "010" casting blocks would be something better than the standard 2 bolt blocks. They move as much as the 2 bolt caps. Just a guess on my part, but, maybe Chevy caps need deeper registers. The factory high-perf big block, as it came in production vehicle Chevy cars and trucks, have caps that are not angled, all the bolts bolt straight 90 degree to the pan rails. Just as interesting is that the small block Windsor blocks ( 260/ 289/ 302 ) with onlt 2 bolt caps are rarely found to be out of whack when rebuilding. Aside from the Boss engines, Ford did produce a 4 bolt 289/302block for the aftermarket, racers only . Think LeMans 24 hours wide open.
Back to our Clevelands.........If you already have a 4 bolt 351c, you're good to go. If you have a 2 bolt block and found some 4 bolt caps, have them fit and you're good to go. Now if you have your 2 bolt block you're still good to go. In any scenario, 2 or 4, studding the mains will greatly aid the CLAMPING force to the main caps ( you must have the block line -honed when adding studs ), so you gain correct (ed) sizing along with added insurance against cap walk. But seriously, MOST street builds will not have any issues with 2 bolt blocks. My own current build, is a 2 bolt block, and was raced for years in Stock Automatic class, ( Not by me ), and showed no signs of cap walk. I'm just taking it to .030 over and addressing some oiling upgrades and a few other things, but 2 bolt caps with studs are going to work fine.

 

[Sheriff41]

I have some experience with many makes of engines. You are correct in stating that Ford's outer bolts on their 4-bolt caps are to control "fretting", in the same way that many high-perf blocks will also have dowels, or , pins, to locate and help the caps from moving. A great example of pinning are the Pontiac blocks, which have NO cap registers. The caps are bolted down to a flat webbing with two main bolts to hold them down and dowels, or pins , to hold their location.
It's interesting that you bring up the Chevrolet 4-bolt caps. Even with 4 bolts, the small blocks almost always require the mains Line-Honed to size when rebuilding. You'd think those "010" casting blocks would be something better than the standard 2 bolt blocks. They move as much as the 2 bolt caps. Just a guess on my part, but, maybe Chevy caps need deeper registers. The factory high-perf big block, as it came in production vehicle Chevy cars and trucks, have caps that are not angled, all the bolts bolt straight 90 degree to the pan rails. Just as interesting is that the small block Windsor blocks ( 260/ 289/ 302 ) with onlt 2 bolt caps are rarely found to be out of whack when rebuilding. Aside from the Boss engines, Ford did produce a 4 bolt 289/302block for the aftermarket, racers only . Think LeMans 24 hours wide open.
Back to our Clevelands.........If you already have a 4 bolt 351c, you're good to go. If you have a 2 bolt block and found some 4 bolt caps, have them fit and you're good to go. Now if you have your 2 bolt block you're still good to go. In any scenario, 2 or 4, studding the mains will greatly aid the CLAMPING force to the main caps ( you must have the block line -honed when adding studs ), so you gain correct (ed) sizing along with added insurance against cap walk. But seriously, MOST street builds will not have any issues with 2 bolt blocks. My own current build, is a 2 bolt block, and was raced for years in Stock Automatic class, ( Not by me ), and showed no signs of cap walk. I'm just taking it to .030 over and addressing some oiling upgrades and a few other things, but 2 bolt caps with studs are going to work fine.

Spike, what are the oiling upgrades you're doing? It seems there are several different approaches I've read about.

 

[Spike Morelli]

OK, first, let me say outright, I don't intend to ever race my car. It's simply my everyday driver. That being said, because I have machine shop access, I am going to do some oiling mods which are really un-necessary for everyday driving but I'm going to do as an exploration into the mods. Amongst those mods are oil restricting cam bearings, which have a shallow radial groove on the o.d., to restrict too much oil from going to the cam bearings. My block had the Moroso kit restrictors which were screwed into the oil holes from the mains, but I am putting new cam bearings in anyway, so I thought I'd use these. I believe they're from T.M. Meyer. A few of the oil holes at the front are modified as well per Meyer's chart. I have also purchased bronze bushings for all 16 of my lifter bores to eleviate excessive bleed off of oil pressure at the lifters. Stock oil pump/ ARP drive. Mains are line-honed to match with my Clevite bearings and crank journal oil clearance wanted. That's about it for oiling. It's really not needed, but I want to know how it works out...not that I need anything special, it'll rarely see 4000, let alone 5000 rpm . The car has served me for 33 years without mods, it should be good without, but I can do it for free. That's it for oiling. And yes, 2 bolt mains.

 

[Stanglover]

I have some experience with many makes of engines. You are correct in stating that Ford's outer bolts on their 4-bolt caps are to control "fretting", in the same way that many high-perf blocks will also have dowels, or , pins, to locate and help the caps from moving. A great example of pinning are the Pontiac blocks, which have NO cap registers. The caps are bolted down to a flat webbing with two main bolts to hold them down and dowels, or pins , to hold their location.
It's interesting that you bring up the Chevrolet 4-bolt caps. Even with 4 bolts, the small blocks almost always require the mains Line-Honed to size when rebuilding. You'd think those "010" casting blocks would be something better than the standard 2 bolt blocks. They move as much as the 2 bolt caps. Just a guess on my part, but, maybe Chevy caps need deeper registers. The factory high-perf big block, as it came in production vehicle Chevy cars and trucks, have caps that are not angled, all the bolts bolt straight 90 degree to the pan rails. Just as interesting is that the small block Windsor blocks ( 260/ 289/ 302 ) with onlt 2 bolt caps are rarely found to be out of whack when rebuilding. Aside from the Boss engines, Ford did produce a 4 bolt 289/302block for the aftermarket, racers only . Think LeMans 24 hours wide open.
Back to our Clevelands.........If you already have a 4 bolt 351c, you're good to go. If you have a 2 bolt block and found some 4 bolt caps, have them fit and you're good to go. Now if you have your 2 bolt block you're still good to go. In any scenario, 2 or 4, studding the mains will greatly aid the CLAMPING force to the main caps ( you must have the block line -honed when adding studs ), so you gain correct (ed) sizing along with added insurance against cap walk. But seriously, MOST street builds will not have any issues with 2 bolt blocks. My own current build, is a 2 bolt block, and was raced for years in Stock Automatic class, ( Not by me ), and showed no signs of cap walk. I'm just taking it to .030 over and addressing some oiling upgrades and a few other things, but 2 bolt caps with studs are going to work fine.

Spike, that's an interesting read, very informative.
A friend of mine, now passed, was a professional engine builder of what I call "mud puddle" race car engines. i.e. short track dirt ovals. He built mainly Chevy engines, but with some Fords mixed in.
Back when I was having all sorts of problems with the timing on my Cleveland build, due to a POS Pertronix III, Dave taught me about the cap bolt issues and why his Chevy engines always had secondary bolts on an angle. As a former machinist, I fully understand the reasoning, bolts on an angle can never allow the cap to pull upwards should a main cap bolt loosen.
As for the Cleveland, he had built a few and what he said aligns with your comments. Actually, he had a Cleveland motor already done, just sitting under a bench which I would liked to have bought, but he passed away suddenly before I could make an offer. I have no idea what the family did with it or his business.

 

[Spike Morelli]

Stanglover, I'm with you on that damned Pertronix Ignitor III. I have posted this story years back, but , I thought I'd try the "III", removed my original Pertronix module from my distributor which never gave me a lick of trouble for years and years, bought and installed the "III" unit, and took the car up on the freeway for a test drive. So, literally, 15 minutes after installing it, my car is dead up on a deserted section of highway. It just stopped. Many hours later I'm being towed back to my house. I checked my installation again , after all, it did run.....at first. I couldn't find the issue, it wouldn't re-start, so I just yanked the Pertronix III out of my distributor and re-installed my original module unit, a a Pertronix I from 1990, it lit right off...and it's still in it working flawlessly. We're not alone, as many have not had good luck with the "III" unit.
Back to the main cap deal, looking at a Cleveland main cap one can see how really beefy the caps are, especially when compared to other makes of small blocks. I've never seen anyone break a cap in hot street form, which indicates to me that the cap is up to snuff, but if loading and walking is being questioned, studs will hold it. As I said, I have seen photos of numerous wheels up launches of George Thompson's '71 Mach 1 at the drags, a car he throttled for years, and now I have his block, and there's no signs of cap walk on this 2 bolt, he was using ARP studs though.
I started a thread on this site called "Australian Heads Project", which got sidelined as I was moving from Los Angeles to Boise, and only posted some 289 head stuff, but never got back to the 351c with Aussie heads build. As soon as I get all my photos in a row and finish the project, I am going to post the ins-and-outs of what I'm building.
Also, I switched from an Icon forged piston, as I stated in my original post, to a DSS Forged, dished piston, allowing me to use the factory length and press fit rods for the build.

 

[Stanglover]

Stanglover, I'm with you on that damned Pertronix Ignitor III. I have posted this story years back, but , I thought I'd try the "III", removed my original Pertronix module from my distributor which never gave me a lick of trouble for years and years, bought and installed the "III" unit, and took the car up on the freeway for a test drive. So, literally, 15 minutes after installing it, my car is dead up on a deserted section of highway. It just stopped. Many hours later I'm being towed back to my house. I checked my installation again , after all, it did run.....at first. I couldn't find the issue, it wouldn't re-start, so I just yanked the Pertronix III out of my distributor and re-installed my original module unit, a a Pertronix I from 1990, it lit right off...and it's still in it working flawlessly. We're not alone, as many have not had good luck with the "III" unit.
Back to the main cap deal, looking at a Cleveland main cap one can see how really beefy the caps are, especially when compared to other makes of small blocks. I've never seen anyone break a cap in hot street form, which indicates to me that the cap is up to snuff, but if loading and walking is being questioned, studs will hold it. As I said, I have seen photos of numerous wheels up launches of George Thompson's '71 Mach 1 at the drags, a car he throttled for years, and now I have his block, and there's no signs of cap walk on this 2 bolt, he was using ARP studs though.
I started a thread on this site called "Australian Heads Project", which got sidelined as I was moving from Los Angeles to Boise, and only posted some 289 head stuff, but never got back to the 351c with Aussie heads build. As soon as I get all my photos in a row and finish the project, I am going to post the ins-and-outs of what I'm building.
Also, I switched from an Icon forged piston, as I stated in my original post, to a DSS Forged, dished piston, allowing me to use the factory length and press fit rods for the build.

Spike, I'm sure you've read the story and experience I had with the P III, after all, I've repeated it several times over the past almost 10 years. I now run a P II with matching Flamethrower coil and had no problem with it at all. I did buy a P II at the time I was "discussing the P III issue with Pertronix", not knowing then if they would replace or exchange. When Pertronix sent me the P II and coil, I put the second one on the shelf just in case. It sat there for just over 3 years, when I thought the original P II was giving problems. I installed the spare only to find out it was DOA. Guess what, it was out of warranty, so I was out the $160 bucks or so it cost. So, you either get lucky or you don't it seems.
Back when I got the motor rebuilt for the first time, I talked to a local ex drag racer I know who is a total Ford engine guru. He wanted to stroke the motor to 393 ci and he also wanted to beef it up using studs for the caps, that I do remember. The problem was he wanted too much money for my budget and as he used the same engine machine shop where I did get the motor rebuilt for 2/3 rds the estimate, I went with the shop. That came back to bite me in the *** and although they did the labor and cam under warranty, it still cost me. In hind site I should have gone with Barry and got the motor done right.
I do on occasion hit the 5k mark on the tach and so far no problems with the bottom end. It is a 2 bolt motor.

 

[rio1856]

Spike Morelli wrote,
"I started a thread on this site called "Australian Heads Project", which got sidelined as I was moving from Los Angeles to Boise, and only posted some 289 head stuff, but never got back to the 351c with Aussie heads build. As soon as I get all my photos in a row and finish the project, I am going to post the ins-and-outs of what I'm building."

Brother, please don't forget to post this! I've been anticipating looking at what you are going to do. I have a pair of Aussie heads for my 351 and am very interested in your mods. It'll help me decide on what I will do with my build.

 

[Spike Morelli]

I thought I'd post these pictures. These are the oil system modifications which I have done to the front of the block. The photos are what TMeyer recommends doing, and which I have done, and will show you when I post up my build. These mods are easy to do when rebuilding. For now though, You can get some idea of the re-directing of oil flow. When looking at the colored oil flow around the cam bearings, remember that this is using TMeyer's externally grooved cam bearings. The oil hole in the cam bearings are installed at approximately 4 o'clock, rather than inline to the mains. Oil flows to the cam journals around the OD restriction groove to the cam journals. Take a good look at this.

 

[Spike Morelli]

Rio1856, I sure will post up the Aussie heads build up. One thing I found, which may apply to some of you , is that if you are converting to studs and guideplates, Melling has their own line of guideplates for the Cleveland, Part # MGP1114, for a box of 4ea, so you'll need to order two boxes to do a pair of heads. They are hardened, black oxided just like everyone elses but priced better. They are for 5/16th" pushrods. If you are going to race your engine, or have heavy spring pressures, many go to a 3/8th" pushrod. I am using heavy walled Smith Bros. pushrods at 5/16ths" O.D. with the Mellings guideplates. I am retrofitting the engine with a roller ( mildest I could find ) cam, so custom pushrods were part of the plan anyway.