advice about cylinder head

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dkgd91

Active member
Joined
Mar 8, 2020
Messages
34
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8
Location
france
My Car
ford mustang 1971 V8 351 C
hi everybody

i'm looking for advice because i want to change my cylinder head of my engine (351 Cleveland 2V) for something better and who last longer

it's not for a racing use only a daily /road use

i want something close to the original spec (but if it is not possible it's okay)

and advice about roller lifters etc...

thanks for all (and sorry for my bad english i'm french)
 
Your English is fine, don't worry about it. Auto parts have gotten very expensive the last 3 years. Replacement, non-original heads are $2500-$4000 USD. For daily driver use a reconditioned pair of 2V 351C,4V 351C, or reconditioned pair of Australian 302C heads would be less expensive. For daily use, hydraulic roller lifters would make sense, if you feel you need roller lifters. What are you goals for the car? Do you want more power from the engine? If you can tell us more about what you want from the car, we can be more helpful. Chuck
 
There are a number of aftermarket aluminum heads out there, and most are excellent heads. What I see as the biggest issue with spending a ton of money on aluminum heads is that the Cleveland heads flow so well, even the 2V heads flow very well. So, you do not see the HP gains you would see if you had like a 350 Chevy with smog era heads, and went to some big valve Air Flow Research, Edelbrock, Brodix heads or something of the sort. The 4V Cleveland heads flow a ton of air and the closed chamber heads are hard to beat. It all depends on what you want to do. You can easily build a 400HP + street engine with regular 2V heads. Now, being that there are some many issues currently with flat tappet cams and lifters, I would definitely spend the money on a good roller cam and all the associated components. Right now, I would not use a flat tappet cam.
 
thanks for your answers, the goal with the cars is to be a daily or week end car , and i'm looking for better cylinder heads because the 2v don't have bronze valve guide and they're open chamber and the "conduit"(don't know if it's english) are full of rust so i'm not very confident about it and prone to detonation , but on the internet they are ton of cylinder heads and i don't know what to choose ,

and i have a question do i need to change my cam if a want roller lifter ?

thanks for your future answers
 
Yes ,you need to change your cam ,lifters (obviously) ,pushrods (rollers lifters need shorter pushrods) and change distributor gear to a steel gear. You can have a machine shop install bronze valve guides in your stock heads which is what I did. I have no detonation issues with my stock 2V heads. I assume there are automotive machine shops in France. As the other members stated: Aftermarket heads for Clevelands are very expensive as are roller cam kits. I think your English is pretty damn good. I took 3 years of French in high school and I stink at it.

Ron
 
eBay is a good source for car parts. Currently, they have several used heads both 2v and 4v. The 2v I observed were only $150 ISD. That means they will need to be rebuilt. You would need to request a quote for international shipping. eBay item number 294922276427.
 
Greetings!

Being that you plan to use this as a daily driver, and not for racing, I see no need to use anything other than a stock set of heads. I know there are quite a few opinions re: which head to use re: open chamber and closed chamber. Either will work fine for routine street driving, but a lower compression set of heads will allow you to run with a lower octane fuel. In our case for our 69 Shelby GT500 and our two 73 Mustangs, we use non-0ethanol gasoline, as I prefer to not have to deal with ethanol fuel that coagulates in time, and to avoid any long term issues with alcohol on the fuel system components that were never designed to be exposed to alcohol, even if it is "only" a 10% mix. The good news is we still have non-ethanol gasoline available., The bad news is that is cost more than even premium ethanol mixtures of gasoline, and it is only 89-90 octane. So, no getting aggressive with ignition timing and compression ratios for us.

I am glad to see you have an eye on longevity. In a prior comment Ron Tanzi suggests having the valve guides getting bronze walled, and I totally agree. Another great move it so replace the oem style umbrella oil "seals" (actually oil splash diverters) with a "real seal" design like Perfect Circle offers.

Another thing to do is to install hardened steel valve seats.

As for the use of flat tappet cam and lifters, I have seen a lot of posts re: folks who have flat tappet cams and lifters that are getting wiped out very quickly, despite them using proper cam/lifter break-in lubrication and engine oil with Zinc in it. The speculation is they are either not following proper break-in procedures and/or incorrect lubricant (I doubt that is the case for experienced engine builders), or the metal used for the cam lobes and lifters is not hardened properly. With the report of ever more use of Chinese parts being used I suspect it is more a metallurgy related issue folks are running into. For myself, I have pretty much decided to invest a bit more in any new valve train parts and go with a hydraulic roller can and lifter assembly, just to avoid the issues folks are running into with failed cams and lifters. For me, it is a matter of doing what I can to avoid having to tear an engine down a 2nd time in the event of a failure of the cam lobes or lifters.

Along similar lines, in the event you opt to use the old school flat tappet cam and lifters, I would be the last person to throw a rock at you. But, please be aware most modern engine oil does not contain (enough) Zinc to prevent premature or rapid wearing of flat tappet surfaces. The reason they have begun to not use Zinc any longer is because Zinc impedes catalytic converters from working properly. These older engines do not come with catalytic converter exhaust parts, so no need to avoid Zinc. More important, Zinc is needed to help lubricate high spring pressure designed flat tappet wear surfaces. If you engine oil does not have Zinc, you need to use a Zinc additive if you have a flat tappet engine design. Or, better yet, use an engine oil that already has Zinc in it. I use AmsOil Z-Rod 10/30 (it comes in other weights also). If your engine oil does not clearly stare it has Zinc in it, and you are running a flat tappet engine, you need to change oils or start using a Zinc additive.

Finally, when it comes to timing chains and gears, I prefer to use a double roller chain and gear design. And, I will not use gears that have a plastic or nylon tooth assembly. An all metal set of gears will be a bit noisy compared to gears that have a plastic or nylon coated set of teeth, but the all metal design will last far longer.

Okay, those are my thoughts for what it is worth. Have fun with your Mustang!

 
thanks for all your answers and your knowledge it's always good to have advice from others (and also because i'm maybe a bit young i'd only got 29 years old and need to learn ) the main reason to new cylinder head it's in france we got 95 and 98 octane gas with 5% or 10% ethanol and bronze valve guide it's a must have but another problem it's a don't know automotive machine shop who knows how to work on a 351 cleveland (and who do a good work) so maybre it's better to buy a set of new one

what did you think about speedmaster cylinder head ?

thanks for all (and sorry if a made gramatical mistake english is not my mother tongue but i do my best and i prefer to apologize )
 
Maybe some of our other French members know of a shop nearby. In regards to Speedmaster, I have read mixed reviews. Do not rely on their hardware. Get them bare, thoroughly check the casting, and add all the hardware yourself if you can.
 
Europe uses Motor Octane Number (MON). US and Canada use the average of Research Octane Number (RON) and MON (RON+ MON/2). Also called Anti-Knock Index (AKI). A MON 98 octane is equal to AKI 93-94 octane. MON 95 is equal to AKI 90-91 octane. I do not know where in France you are but, I have a few friends in the Stuttgart Germany area that would know of a good machine shop. Chuck
 
Do some research on what head gaskets to use with the Aluminum heads on your Iron block. My go-to head gasket for Aluminum head on Iron block is Cometic MLS (others make good MLS gaskets also). If you end up staying with a rebuild Iron head most any quality composite gasket will be fine. Also consider upgrading the intake gasket to the more compressible fiber or Cometic EFM (expanded foam material) VS a factory steel Turkey Pan gasket.
 
As others said I would say you are fine with some good used OEM heads. If you were a bit faster on your demand I could have sold you a pair of good original 4V closed chamber heads. But now they are gone. From time to time there are some in Europe, otherwise you have to look in the USA. Have a look in eBay or eBay Kleinanzeigen Germany. I know of an importservice which have not that much shipping cost, usa-importservice.de. Lastly, as mentioned from Chuck, I have a good and reasonable machine shop in Germany on hands which is operated by Oliver, Chuck nows him well. He has built lots of engines in the past which has proven their power and reliability over the years now.

If some new heads are the best and cheapest way for you then buy them bare and build them from scratch. By this you have the least chance of a fail.

So it's up to you...
 
thanks all for your answers , i'm living in paris region , so maybe go to bare speedmasters and buy good valve , spring etc... it's a better idea ?
 
Europe uses Motor Octane Number (MON). US and Canada use the average of Research Octane Number (RON) and MON (RON+ MON/2). Also called Anti-Knock Index (AKI). A MON 98 octane is equal to AKI 93-94 octane. MON 95 is equal to AKI 90-91 octane. I do not know where in France you are but, I have a few friends in the Stuttgart Germany area that would know of a good machine shop. Chuck
so what's the better fuel to use in a 351 cleveland ?
 
thanks all for your answers , i'm living in paris region , so maybe go to bare speedmasters and buy good valve , spring etc... it's a better idea ?
If you go this route check for core shift and casting quality. I have heard that it could be an issue where ports don't align properly.
 
If you go this route check for core shift and casting quality. I have heard that it could be an issue where ports don't align properly.
i read on many website and even in some books about the 351 C that the original 2v open chamber it not a good choice and it's better for the engine to take 2v closed chambers that's why i ask advice because a don't really know what to do
 
and even if a take a pair of new cylinder head there so many brand (speedmaster afd chi trickflow edelbrock etc...) i didn't know what to choose ^^
 
I have personal experience and positive results with CHI, Trick Flow and Edelbrock heads. No experience with Speedmaster or AFR. But as stated by others, you have to do some homework in selecting the set-up for your particular engine and drive style.
 
so what's the better fuel to use in a 351 cleveland ?
There are many variables to consider. How much compression, how much cam overlap, rear gear ratio, intended use, etc. If the engine is stock your 95 would be fine in most situations.
Even if you got the heads bare and bought the valves and other valve train parts, the vales and the seats would still need to be machined.
To me, the best option is to import OEM heads, already reconditioned, from the US or Australia. Timachone may be able to help with that. I would make sure the multi groove OEM valves were replaced with single groove valve. The multi-groove vales are notorious for breaking and destroying the engine. Chuck
 
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