Hooker competition headers issue

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Ballaratcastle

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Hi team

I purchased some hooker competition headers (painted but not ceramic coated) from CJ Pony parts where their advertising says they are made to fit 66-73 mustangs 302/351W engines. I an a newbie so took this as gospel. They got shipped to NZ and I have had major issues bolting them to the engine. 

The passenger side went on fine and there was about 1/2 inch clearance from the top of the flange (collector) bolt hole and the floor pan. 

Went to fit the drivers side passing them up from the bottom after unbolting the power steering box (my steering shaft was already out) and got them up to the heads. 

It was then an issue and I couldn't bolt them up because the collector was hitting the drivers floor pan. 

Tried loosening the mounts right off but still no play. Then had to disconnect the gearbox crossmember to allow the back of the engine to drop so I could then get a good face to the heads to get the bolts in. 

I know when I jack up the back of the gearbox to reattach the mount I wont be able to because they will hit. 

I then googled the issue and found it is a common issue as hooker haven't taken into account the extra deck height of the 351 over the 302. You would think this issue has been around for a long time and they would warn against this. Why do they also have the pointiest part of the flange at the top. They could have put the flattest part of the flange at the top and the bolt holes on the sides (eg rotate it around)

One blogger contacted hookers technical dept and their answer was to bash the floor pan up.. gees when someone has spent thousands $$$ replacing floor pans and nice paint job top and bottom that's a bit amateurish. 

I also took my mount off to double check at a local mount shop who confirmed I had the low mount already and there is not much metal on those low mounts to elongate the hole any more plus the rubber is hard down on the cross member mount. 

Any suggestions who has overcome this issue. 

Other than bashing my floor pan up, I presume the only alternative is to cut the flanges off, turn them around and angle them down and reweld?

Cheers

Steve

 
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Hey Steve I thought straight away when you said they fit 302/351W there could be a problem as you say due to deck height

I would just modify the headers rather than damage your good floor pans

Too late now but for future reference our Falcon headers should fit these Mustangs

For example I purchased Proflow headers suit Cleveland 2V Falcon XR-F to fit to my 72 Mustang with RHD conversion with RRS rack/pinion and in no way expected them to fit perfectly however was surprised when they actually fitted up well with no bashing required

 

Ballaratcastle

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Hey Steve I thought straight away when you said they fit 302/351W there could be a problem as you say due to deck height

I would just modify the headers rather than damage your good floor pans

Too late now but for future reference our Falcon headers should fit these Mustangs

For example I purchased Proflow headers suit Cleveland 2V Falcon XR-F to fit to my 72 Mustang with RHD conversion with RRS rack/pinion and in no way expected them to fit perfectly however was surprised when they actually fitted up well with no bashing required
Cheers mate

Spoke to my mechanic tonight over a beer and he said the same thing. As my motor and box have been rebuilt he suggested I get the flange/collectors cut off when I take the car to get the exhaust done (arrived in NZ with no exhaust) and just sleeve the new pipes over the end of the headers and don't weld them. I cant recall the exact term he used where the pipes just slide over the end of the headers and clamp.

 

Mjordan

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Over the winter I'll be installing the 408 W in my 73 and have read several post concerning this. Do the headers clear the steering box once in place?

 

Mister 4x4

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So I assume you have a Windsor instead of a Cleveland. My headers fit perfect but i have a Cleveland.

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Ditto.

Since '71-'73s didn't come with Windsors, could that be the issue?  I know they came with 302s, but I'm pretty sure there's not a 'one-size-fits-all' solution for 302s ranging from '64-'73.

 
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So I assume you have a Windsor instead of a Cleveland. My headers fit perfect but i have a Cleveland.

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-G930A using Tapatalk
Ditto.

Since '71-'73s didn't come with Windsors, could that be the issue?  I know they came with 302s, but I'm pretty sure there's not a 'one-size-fits-all' solution for 302s ranging from '64-'73.
Well, the 302 is a Windsor!

 

Ballaratcastle

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So I assume you have a Windsor instead of a Cleveland. My headers fit perfect but i have a Cleveland.

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-G930A using Tapatalk
Ditto.

Since '71-'73s didn't come with Windsors, could that be the issue?  I know they came with 302s, but I'm pretty sure there's not a 'one-size-fits-all' solution for 302s ranging from '64-'73.
Hi Tony.

Yes its a 74 windsor originally out of a galaxy according to the numbers. My 73 vert numbers come back to a 302, so someone in the states dropped it in some time ago. It had rusty headers that came with the car but I have no idea how well they fitted as the engine arrived separately on a pallet as it was taken out the car 5 yrs ago when the car had panel work done in the US. I understand Hooker make different headers for the Cleveland as the ones I bought said would fit a 289/302/351W only and there were separate ones advertised to fit a cleveland which I have been told is a wider block than the windsor.  I should have googled them first and I would have seen all the problems people were having trying to fit them to a 351W. Cheers Steve

 
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Mister 4x4

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So I assume you have a Windsor instead of a Cleveland. My headers fit perfect but i have a Cleveland.

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-G930A using Tapatalk
Ditto.

Since '71-'73s didn't come with Windsors, could that be the issue?  I know they came with 302s, but I'm pretty sure there's not a 'one-size-fits-all' solution for 302s ranging from '64-'73.
Well, the 302 is a Windsor!
OK - but that begs the question: is a 351W basically a bored & stoked 302, or something different (as in, the block is somewhat different to accommodate the greater displacement)?  I honestly don't know - never been worried about anything but the 351C that mine came with, so I'm not exactly up-to-snuff on other engine trivia.  

The heads are what dictates the header fitment - someone with a set of Cleveland heads should be using a set of Cleveland headers, then chase the other issues that come with the engine mount height and block dimensions - i.e., Clevelor engines (which I'm sure is not the case here).  

Aside from that, gotta determine if the block dimensions differ significantly enough to create the header fitment issues he's running into.  I think Don C's response above speaks to that.

 

Ballaratcastle

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Ditto.

Since '71-'73s didn't come with Windsors, could that be the issue?  I know they came with 302s, but I'm pretty sure there's not a 'one-size-fits-all' solution for 302s ranging from '64-'73.
Well, the 302 is a Windsor!
OK - but that begs the question: is a 351W basically a bored & stoked 302, or something different (as in, the block is somewhat different to accommodate the greater displacement)?  I honestly don't know - never been worried about anything but the 351C that mine came with, so I'm not exactly up-to-snuff on other engine trivia.  

The heads are what dictates the header fitment - someone with a set of Cleveland heads should be using a set of Cleveland headers, then chase the other issues that come with the engine mount height and block dimensions - i.e., Clevelor engines (which I'm sure is not the case here).  

Aside from that, gotta determine if the block dimensions differ significantly enough to create the header fitment issues he's running into.  I think Don C's response above speaks to that.
Yes a definately height difference in the blocks weteeen the 302 and 352 Windsor's. When I was sent photos of the engine by the seller he wasn't sure what it was but from googling how to tell the difference apart from comparing measurements of a 302 & 352 side by side, the quickest way was if you could get to the lower bolt on the thermostat housing with a socket it's a 351 if you can only get to it with a ring spanner it's a 302. 

You right in one aspect that the 351c came out in the 71-73s that I know if however the advertising on the hookers specifically said they would fit the 289 up to the 351w for stangs up to 73. In fact the wrecked donor grande here in NZ I got parts from had a 351w in it as I scored the correct power steering bracket. 

At the end of the day I'm just going to have to make the ones I bought fit either by cutting the flanges off or cutting and having them modified to bend down more

 

Mister 4x4

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Sounds like you've got a solid handle on it.  Good luck!  ::thumb::

 

Ballaratcastle

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Sounds like you've got a solid handle on it.  Good luck!  ::thumb::
Cheers mate. Will take too long to source replacement bring half way around the world from the best source of parts at reasonable prices.. lol. We have to rely on kiwi ingenuity to make things work! (Not mine though!) Ha ha

 

barnett468

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Yes a definately height difference in the blocks weteeen the 302 and 352 Windsor's. When I was sent photos of the engine by the seller he wasn't sure what it was but from googling how to tell the difference apart from comparing measurements of a 302 & 352 side by side, the quickest way was if you could get to the lower bolt on the thermostat housing with a socket it's a 351 if you can only get to it with a ring spanner it's a 302.
Actually the quickest way to tell whether it's is a 260/289/302 style block or a 351 is to look at the distance from the top of the water pump ports in relation to the top of the block. this can easily be seen in a photo of the front of the engine so no need to actually be with the engine to put a wrench on it.

 
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The 302s (and 221s, 260s, and 289s) up to 1973 had a deck height of 8.206 inches, and the 351 Windors, up to 1973, had a 9.480 inch deck height. In 1973 the deck height on both the 302 and 351W deck heights were increased by 0.023 inches. The 351 Cleveland deck height is 9.206 inches.

This means that the 351W block is about 0.9" taller and 1.8" wider than the 302 and about 0.2" taller and 0.4" wider than a 351C.

 

Ballaratcastle

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The 302s (and 221s, 260s, and 289s) up to 1973 had a deck height of 8.206 inches, and the 351 Windors, up to 1973, had a 9.480 inch deck height. In 1973 the deck height on both the 302 and 351W deck heights were increased by 0.023 inches. The 351 Cleveland deck height is 9.206 inches.

This means that the 351W block is about 0.9" taller and 1.8" wider than the 302 and about 0.2" taller and 0.4" wider than a 351C.
Thanks Don. 

My engine is actually a 1974 too I just realised and might even be slightly taller. I actually think their jig when they make the headers is out as all the forums say they tend to only hit on the driver's side .There was 1/2 inch clearance on the passenger side. The flange / collector also looks like it is angled inwards from the other side

 

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