How can I get better performances ? 351 2V

[c9zx]

And dont be afraid of open chambered 4 v heads...you will get alot less ping ... They are much better for todays fuel and will flow up too 800 horse power or more if needed<~~i know some closed chambers fans hate the open 4v...but really...they will do just as well and flow more than you will ever need.....how many pony's you wanting? them 2v heads are good up too 350 or 400ish..any more than that you should look into 4v heads....cam is a big helper and headers like said above...i got a 4v cleveland with open chambered heads....im putting a 5:25 lift cam...hooker headers...750 holley vacume sec....and even if i leave my stock 9.1 compression..im expecting about 425ish....with 10;1 im expecting around 450 horses...sence mostly you can get only 92 octange around here im not going to high on compression....with a 600 cam lift...you would expect around 550 hp...but any more than that..you will have to get a 4v block to go long with your 4v heads....2v's are usualy 2 bolt main...And anything over 600ish hp should have 4 bolt atleast...sence clevelands spin so many rpm's .

Thinks ill become the unofficial spokes person for the 4v open chambered heads... Sence not many stick up for them hehe

I suppose we need to share the title of spokes person for 4V heads. They are great heads. None of my posts should be interpreted as me being a detractor of 4V heads. My posts are an attempt to give advice to match what slydrums has indicated he needs/wants and the parts he has. Plus the cost of parts in europe and finding a machine shop that knows anything about these engines makes the effort very difficult/expensive. All the talk about 4v heads don't work on the street is wrong. It just requires a little more money for the build/gas and be willing to rev the engine. My daily driver in 1977 was a 72 R-code than ran 12.72 @ 110 mph. Not fast by today's standards but very quick for the day. Wow! I guess you now know where at least one button is. Chuck

I agree with most of the post but have to disagree with the following "but any more than that..you will have to get a 4v block to go long with your 4v heads....2v's are usually 2 bolt main...And anything over 600ish hp should have 4 bolt at least...since clevelands spin so many rpm's ." As most 351c 2 or 4v blocks are 2 bolt mains. All can be modified for a 4bolt main set up, but in my opinion its not needed.

+1 Chuck

 

[marks73]

+2 Mark

If the block is solid it's simple machining to get 4 bolt mains. Question. Is it a waste of money on a dailey driver that's not looking to make money at the track to spend that money?

 

[hyena429]

I agree with most of the post but have to disagree with the following "but any more than that..you will have to get a 4v block to go long with your 4v heads....2v's are usually 2 bolt main...And anything over 600ish hp should have 4 bolt at least...since clevelands spin so many rpm's ." As most 351c 2 or 4v blocks are 2 bolt mains. All can be modified for a 4bolt main set up, but in my opinion its not needed.

mm they did leave some room to drill....But yes they are needed for serious high rpms all the time...in real full race with out them the bottom end would walk all over....my cousin is a mechanical engineer..and plus i hang with alot of circle track and nitro / alcohal drag racers.....And they all seen alot of fail bottom ends due too lack of 4 bolt mains...I sure havent...I use to think 2 or 4 bolt who cares? Well in the 700 horse market it does matter...And i heard stories of chevy big blocks runing 800 hp with 2 bolt mains...But when you talk too the engineers and engine builders...They will say 4 bolt main does make a diffrence on the life of your bottom end with such high hp......long as your not over 650+ ..your fine..how many clevelands are pushing over that? not many on the street..lol even with 4v heads that can flow up too 900 hp or more..you need some serious spring work and head work...lol<~~im just saying if he gets nuts with it..he mite as well look for a 4 bolt main to go along with them heads..there not that rare...and not that spendy yet....i bet you can get a rebuildable 4 bolt main cleveland with 4v heads for 800 bucks or less.

And dont be afraid of open chambered 4 v heads...you will get alot less ping ... They are much better for todays fuel and will flow up too 800 horse power or more if needed<~~i know some closed chambers fans hate the open 4v...but really...they will do just as well and flow more than you will ever need.....how many pony's you wanting? them 2v heads are good up too 350 or 400ish..any more than that you should look into 4v heads....cam is a big helper and headers like said above...i got a 4v cleveland with open chambered heads....im putting a 5:25 lift cam...hooker headers...750 holley vacume sec....and even if i leave my stock 9.1 compression..im expecting about 425ish....with 10;1 im expecting around 450 horses...sence mostly you can get only 92 octange around here im not going to high on compression....with a 600 cam lift...you would expect around 550 hp...but any more than that..you will have to get a 4v block to go long with your 4v heads....2v's are usualy 2 bolt main...And anything over 600ish hp should have 4 bolt atleast...sence clevelands spin so many rpm's .

Thinks ill become the unofficial spokes person for the 4v open chambered heads... Sence not many stick up for them hehe

I suppose we need to share the title of spokes person for 4V heads. They are great heads. None of my posts should be interpreted as me being a detractor of 4V heads. My posts are an attempt to give advice to match what slydrums has indicated he needs/wants and the parts he has. Plus the cost of parts in europe and finding a machine shop that knows anything about these engines makes the effort very difficult/expensive. All the talk about 4v heads don't work on the street is wrong. It just requires a little more money for the build/gas and be willing to rev the engine. My daily driver in 1977 was a 72 R-code than ran 12.72 @ 110 mph. Not fast by today's standards but very quick for the day. Wow! I guess you now know where at least one button is. Chuck

Ya i heard alot about 4v heads no good on the street {rolls eyes} hehe....if you dont know where your powerband is you will loose alot of races with the 4v heads...Need atlleast a 2000 or 2500rpm launch.....reason why they put a 3,000 rmp vert in the autos.....I use to hear all sorts of myths about the old cleveland...How the 351 win is a better motor and i got the crappy one...lol I would ask the old racers and they would say..BAH!! Dont lisin too them folks there reading from old 1970's propoganda..And then i would hear open chambered heads were bad!! Which really im glad mine has it now with fuels of now days...I can get the same hp preformance as a closed chambered without the ping...hehe

but it does matter what your building it for....If he wants to just run it on the street.,.No need for a 4 bolt main and all that...if he wants under 400 hp..he dont even need the 4v heads....But if he plans to really run it hard he mite wanna check into that stuff before he does...4bolts and 4v heads and such..there not that hard to get right now...But will be.

 

[droptop73]

Just to put it in perspective the SS/GT/D car I work on has run 9:45@145+ with a 2 bolt main block. All of our Cleveland based race engines are 2 bolt main blocks. Yes the caps walk, just like with 4 bolt blocks. It's the webbing in the block not the main caps or the number of bolts. It's just a Cleveland. You are not going to make that kind of power naturally aspirated and expect to run it on the street. Don't worry about the block. It's in the block prep (straight, square, filled, better castings).

BTW they are also open chambered heads. Basically the '72 351 H.O. (R code) combination.

 

[will e]

I was going to say the 4v heads are not so bad on the street too. I went from 2v open to 4v closed. I am happy with the way it worked out.

 

[BigPinoyHunk]

I'm quite happy with the performances of my 72 Grande for everyday street cruising but I'd like to get "a bit more". Like many people, I wonder what is the "next step" to get a bit better perf something like 300 HP would be great.

Engine is a '72 351C 2V. I'm currently using a Weiand intake in this and a 600 CFM Holley Carb.

Exhaust is the original one but I plan to get some Hooker headers and a new exhaust kit with Flowmaster mufflers.

I think my engine is tuned correctly because the car runs great and it's cool to drive. I'm doing 0-60 in 8 seconds.

What do you think is the next step to get some more power ? 4V heads ? 650 CFM carb ? Stroked engine ?

Here in France parts are much more expensive because of the shipping and taxes, and used parts are expensive too, so I don't want to do a mistake. I know there are tons of things to do to get better performances, but I don't want a racing car, just a bit more fun to drive

buy my 460 in my car now, i want to sell it as a whole piece from oil pan to carb so i can build myself another motor. no point trying to change a part or two in it and mess up the whole package of the motor. i ran a 12.6 with the motor and got me 12mpg around town.

 

[hyena429]

Just to put it in perspective the SS/GT/D car I work on has run 9:45@145+ with a 2 bolt main block. All of our Cleveland based race engines are 2 bolt main blocks. Yes the caps walk, just like with 4 bolt blocks. It's the webbing in the block not the main caps or the number of bolts. It's just a Cleveland. You are not going to make that kind of power naturally aspirated and expect to run it on the street. Don't worry about the block. It's in the block prep (straight, square, filled, better castings).

BTW they are also open chambered heads. Basically the '72 351 H.O. (R code) combination.

Good point..but i have to agree to disagree {wink} sure 2 bolt can hold..but why not 4 if its cheap? seen and heard of plenty of blocks runing 2 bolt mains to insaine horse power levels...And not just talking a quarter mile strip...even in a quatermile run the cleveland doesnt stay at high rpm for every long...But in circle track it has to run at 7,000 rpm all day..Bottom ends allways go out....All the old circle trackers here said they wouldnt touch it unless it was 4 bolt..cause of the 351 motors that scattered....i have seen a 800 horse power mustang cleveland on the street ....and there is a red one with twin turbo 408 cleveland on youtuber...its a bit overkill for the street...but if you want your motor too be bullet proof as possible..why not 4 bolt? is all im saying..lol

 

[Tnfastbk]

Just to put it in perspective the SS/GT/D car I work on has run 9:45@145+ with a 2 bolt main block. All of our Cleveland based race engines are 2 bolt main blocks. Yes the caps walk, just like with 4 bolt blocks. It's the webbing in the block not the main caps or the number of bolts. It's just a Cleveland. You are not going to make that kind of power naturally aspirated and expect to run it on the street. Don't worry about the block. It's in the block prep (straight, square, filled, better castings).

BTW they are also open chambered heads. Basically the '72 351 H.O. (R code) combination.

Good point..but i have to agree to disagree {wink} sure 2 bolt can hold..but why not 4 if its cheap? seen and heard of plenty of blocks runing 2 bolt mains to insaine horse power levels...And not just talking a quarter mile strip...even in a quatermile run the cleveland doesnt stay at high rpm for every long...But in circle track it has to run at 7,000 rpm all day..Bottom ends allways go out....All the old circle trackers here said they wouldnt touch it unless it was 4 bolt..cause of the 351 motors that scattered....i have seen a 800 horse power mustang cleveland on the street ....and there is a red one with twin turbo 408 cleveland on youtuber...its a bit overkill for the street...but if you want your motor too be bullet proof as possible..why not 4 bolt? is all im saying..lol

But the point was for a STREET motor not a full out race motor/car. Also most of the 351c bottom end failures was from oiling issues not main bolt trouble.

 

[droptop73]

For a true bulletproof combination use the SVO or Motorsports Windsor blocks with the cleveland heads. They are WAY stronger. If the rules allow. But like Roy noted we are getting off topic.

 

[hyena429]

But the point was for a STREET motor not a full out race motor/car. Also most of the 351c bottom end failures was from oiling issues not main bolt trouble.

I heard about the steel crank oiling issue... ford didnt drill them extra holes just for the fun of it on there preformance clevelands....They did it too make it all around stronger...and it is street,...and getting off topic...But i have to dissagree...Cause ford nor anyone would do anything extra just for nothing...Reason they did it was because they didnt want it too fly apart at high rpm's...i guess we can ask bill gays why they made 4 bolt mains if they was not needed? Im just saying..If you want bullet proof ..What is wrong with putting 4 bolt mains on there? not spendy and give you a little trust in your bottom end is all.

and sorry...didnt mean to hijack the thread..but i feel 4 bolt mains are not there just for looks or cause they didnt know any better...ford did build the engine for pure race..And new alot of the high end street cars would be treated like race cars.

 

[marks73]

Plan here is 70 2 bolt block, 71 closed chamber heads, 72 dual plane Ford aluminum aftermarket intake and guts I'm not willing to disclose at this point. (the competition has ears) but figuring on 500HP when done for when I need it.

 

[Tnfastbk]

But the point was for a STREET motor not a full out race motor/car. Also most of the 351c bottom end failures was from oiling issues not main bolt trouble.

I heard about the steel crank oiling issue... ford didnt drill them extra holes just for the fun of it on there preformance clevelands....They did it too make it all around stronger...and it is street,...and getting off topic...But i have to dissagree...Cause ford nor anyone would do anything extra just for nothing...Reason they did it was because they didnt want it too fly apart at high rpm's...i guess we can ask bill gays why they made 4 bolt mains if they was not needed? Im just saying..If you want bullet proof ..What is wrong with putting 4 bolt mains on there? not spendy and give you a little trust in your bottom end is all.

and sorry...didnt mean to hijack the thread..but i feel 4 bolt mains are not there just for looks or cause they didnt know any better...ford did build the engine for pure race..And new alot of the high end street cars would be treated like race cars.

OK, opinions, for all out race yes I agree, for hard street play no, but again not what this thread started out asking

 

[Sly_drums]

Hey fellows, interesting stuff here, I didn't know the difference between 2 bolt and 4 bolt main, now I know

I was interested in 4V heads at first, but I finally decided to stay 2V because I'm aiming at 350 HP max and good torque for my car. And I don't want to change all my setup.

I just installed a dual PYPES exhaust with Violator mufflers, and Hooker comp headers of course. Now I'm clean on the exhaust side. It's MUCH better right now, I can feel the power and the motor screaming ! It's a bit night and day...

I have no idea how much HP I have, here's my setup :

stock 72 H-code Cleveland

3.50 rear gear ratio

Weiand Xcelerator intake manifold

Holley 600 four barrel carb

Hooker comp headers

Pypes 2.5 exhaust kit (X-pipe and Violator mufflers)

Any idea where I am ?? I guess around 250 HP, maybe more, but nor sure, acceleration is much better now, also because my engine goes in a high RPM range easier.

It's much better but still not enough lol. I'll probably get some Aussie heads and make them ported by a professional guy, and new camshaft too that is suited to my needs. Pertronix ignition look good and cheap, I think it won't be a waste to get one (or MSD if I have the money).

Do you think I can reach the 300-350 HP range ?

 

[mach71351c]

I think your a little closer to 300hp than you think.

 

[MeZapU]

Here is my cars combo. Not awe inspiring by any means but very fun to drive. My cam is a roller but is very small. I bought it way back when the HR retrofit cams were all the rage. Things have matured since then. Today its considered a RV/towing profile.

4.030"

Total Seal rings

9.8:1 c/r

Australian Ford Cleveland cylinder heads, machined for screw-in studs, ported by me

Manley 2.19 intake/1.65 exhaust valves

Crane 529541 hydraulic-roller retrofit camshaft: .562in intake/.586in exhaust, 278/286 duration

1.73:1 rocker arms

Weiand Xcellerator intake manifold

Holley 750-cfm four-barrel carburetor

K&N filter with factory Ram Air

MSD 6AL ignition

Hooker super Comp headers

A dyno plot from a 2008 after I removed the Edelbrock performer dual plane intake in favor of the Weiand. I had to superimpose the Edelbrock numbers from a dyno run back in like 2002. Nothing else was changed except the intake manifold.

 

[Sly_drums]

Hey Mezapu, thanks for posting this, I came across it when I saw the pics of your Mustang, very interesting ! I think the Weiand X-Celerator is a very good intake. I have the feeling that it really "opens up" the engine performance, but I also feel a little lack of torque @ low RPMs (0-60 MPH). I guess the Weiand is killer when using a manual trans since the engine needs RPMs.

Some advised the Weiand Stealth or Edelbrock Performer Air Gap dual planes, but I'm not really sure they REALLY do better than what I have now.

Near 300 HP is quite possible, brand new headers and dual exhaust made it MUCH better ! Former system had leaks and rust. I think I'll retune the engine this weekend, maybe I can improve how it works.

Other thing I did is swapping the Holley carb vacuum secondary spring for a lighter one, which helps to have secondaries opening earlier. It's more fun to drive now.

Now this obsesses me :

Do you think I might get those Aussie heads and do a porting job ? Is it A LOT BETTER to get aluminium heads (because it's a lot more expensive) ? Why not port the stock american open chambers heads I have right now ?

 

[MeZapU]

I noted no difference in loss of bottom end torque from my seat of the pants-o-meter. I did note the improvement I gained in the higher rpm's. With the dual plane intake the engine would lay over pretty hard after 4k rpm's and was quite sluggish. The dyno pretty much confirmed what I was feeling.

No idea on the improvement on a ported set of Aussie heads alone. I went from a near stock 2v motor to what it has now in one big move.

From all the work and money I have into the Aussie heads, I suggest simply finding a set of 4v heads to put the money into. You'll be better in the long run.

 

[Sly_drums]

Thanks Mezapu. Problem is I have that Weiand intake and 2V Hooker headers, so I'll have to change those if I go for 4v heads

I think a big cam, forged pistons, pushrods, roller rockers, MSD ignition and ported Aussie heads should give me a good result, I hope at least 50-70 more HP, am I wrong ??

If I have the money maybe I will choose aluminium heads, but it's an expensive move...

No complaints about the Weiand, it's a very good intake, maybe the lack of torque may be caused by something else. Can't wait to have manual trans too.

 

[BigPinoyHunk]

put a mild 466 in it!!!!!!

 

[Sly_drums]

Ahah I thought about it but in France there's no chance you can find one of these beasts around !!