Ignition Timing Settings

[Stanglover]

Many thanks to all who posted replies. The info should be very helpful in setting up the ignition system (and carb). In response to questions - the distributor is stock, but I will soon be installing a Pertronix Plug n Play distributor with an Ignitor III system and with an adjustable vacuum can so I can tune all the timing settings. The differential is a 3.25:1 TractionLok. Pictures of my car are posted on this website in the Garage and Registry areas under srrodder.

Thank you too for your reply and added info. It helps when everyone knows what you have or are getting. I'll go take a look at your pictures.

Just for information sake, my local parts store no longer recommends Pertronix distributors, saying there have been too many issues with them. So the choice is yours. I had major problems with a Pertronix Ignitor III in my stock distributor. Pertronix replaced it with an Ignitor II and coil, which are working great. Nothing wrong with the Ignitor III electronics, but the two piece base plate construction was absolute crap, causing the timing to wander. I've gone over that before. Don't forget that if you do go with the Pertronix III dist. you'll need a Flamethrower III coil. As for plug and play, personally I'm not so sure about that, but as I've not used one, I'm speculating to say the least. I would think the timing still needs to be correctly set up. I'm sure there are others with better knowledge and can comment.

Good luck and let everyone know the results.

Geoff.

 

[Mister 4x4]

The only thing bad I've heard about the Pertronix III, is there might be some challenges getting it to work properly with a factory tachometer. It can be done, but it's not as plug-and-play [for that aspect] as claimed by the manufacturer.

One solution would be to have the factory tach modified by RCCI (username "TheRktmn" here on the forums), which will become an aftermarket 3-wire tach that should work with just about any ignition system out there while still looking factory.

If you don't have a factory tach, he can convert the factory clocks and 'idiot light' gauges as well. I had my clock converted by him, and it's awesome! Well worth it. ::thumb::

Another possibly solution is MSD has a module that allows their stuff to work with the factory tachs - it might be workable with the Pertronix III as well (I'm not sure about that, though).

Hope that helps!

 

[Stanglover]

The only thing bad I've heard about the Pertronix III, is there might be some challenges getting it to work properly with a factory tachometer. It can be done, but it's not as plug-and-play [for that aspect] as claimed by the manufacturer.

One solution would be to have the factory tach modified by RCCI (username "TheRktmn" here on the forums), which will become an aftermarket 3-wire tach that should work with just about any ignition system out there while still looking factory.

If you don't have a factory tach, he can convert the factory clocks and 'idiot light' gauges as well. I had my clock converted by him, and it's awesome! Well worth it. ::thumb::

Another possibly solution is MSD has a module that allows their stuff to work with the factory tachs - it might be workable with the Pertronix III as well (I'm not sure about that, though).

Hope that helps!

I am not going into the issues I experience with the Ignitor III in a stock dizzy here, Suffice it to say they have an issue with the construction. As for the tach part, no idea, but interesting input. I too have a Rocketman idiot light tach conversion and love it too. I'm not a fan of MSD just for appearances alone. OK on a resto-mod no doubt.

Lets hope our friend finds the answers he's looking for without getting too confused....

 

[srrodder]

Again thanks for all the help. I won't be doing any tuning until the weather warms as I live in the cold East and my car storage is unheated. I wanted to gather all the good info I could to be ready for tuning. Based on your comments, I may switch to an MSD system as I don't want to struggle to get the tach working.

P.S. Besides the '71 Mach 1, I have a '69 GT that I restored several years ago. It was featured in the 2008 issue of Mustangs Monthly. Go to Mustang 360 and search for the article "Like Son Like Father".

 

[Mister 4x4]

This one: http://www.mustangandfords.com/featured-vehicles/mump-0809-1969-mustang-gt-sportsroof/

NICE!! ::thumb::

 

[4Vforever]

Don't know what, why or if there's a problem with the flamethrower 3 distributor. I read a thread not long ago on another forum and couple of big name engine shops use them on their street, street/strip engines to a certain power spec and the only complaint they had were with them was breaking down at 6800-7000 RPM. Other than that they praise them and were saying there's no real difference on these type of engines to running a MSD set up, in fact they were saying for the money they're great as long as your engine isn't revving past these RPM's. I don't have any first hand experience with these distributors, so I don't really know personally. I've used the 1 & 2 modules in standard distributors with matching coils with great results, including swapping the 1 for a 2 when it failed. I know of only one 3 in a distributor that was in there when he purchased the car three years ago and it goes hard and runs faultlessly. To me it seems that there more pro's than cons to these distributors, but as I said I have not dealt with them personally.

 

[Stanglover]

Don't know what, why or if there's a problem with the flamethrower 3 distributor. I read a thread not long ago on another forum and couple of big name engine shops use them on their street, street/strip engines to a certain power spec and the only complaint they had were with them was breaking down at 6800-7000 RPM. Other than that they praise them and were saying there's no real difference on these type of engines to running a MSD set up, in fact they were saying for the money they're great as long as your engine isn't revving past these RPM's. I don't have any first hand experience with these distributors, so I don't really know personally. I've used the 1 & 2 modules in standard distributors with matching coils with great results, including swapping the 1 for a 2 when it failed. I know of only one 3 in a distributor that was in there when he purchased the car three years ago and it goes hard and runs faultlessly. To me it seems that there more pro's than cons to these distributors, but as I said I have not dealt with them personally.

We're getting a bit off track here, but to comment briefly as to why I was lead to believe there were problems with Pertronix distributors may simply have been that, that chain of stores didn't want to sell them and used it as an excuse not to sell them. If I'm correct, the construction of the ignitor III in their distributor is totally different to the conversion type. As I said before, nothing wrong with the electronics. On the up side, the Pertronix looks quite similar to an Motorcraft factory dizzy, whereas the MSD does not. A matter of choice for our friend.

 

[Stanglover]

Again thanks for all the help. I won't be doing any tuning until the weather warms as I live in the cold East and my car storage is unheated. I wanted to gather all the good info I could to be ready for tuning. Based on your comments, I may switch to an MSD system as I don't want to struggle to get the tach working.

P.S. Besides the '71 Mach 1, I have a '69 GT that I restored several years ago. It was featured in the 2008 issue of Mustangs Monthly. Go to Mustang 360 and search for the article "Like Son Like Father".

I read that article. Although it was a bit before I started my subscription, a friend gave me a box of earlier MM's, which I've been digging through. The 69 is my "other" favorite car without doubt. A car to be proud of for sure.

 

[srrodder]

Here is my '71 Mach 1:

 

[srrodder]

And here is my '69 GT:

 

[Mikes73]

Very nice rides.

 

[Stanglover]

OH so nice! both of them. The 71 looks like mine except I "added" the stripes. The 69 is awesome man. I love the way the 69 fastback looks.

Cars to be proud of.

Geoff.

 

[srrodder]

This one: http://www.mustangandfords.com/featured-vehicles/mump-0809-1969-mustang-gt-sportsroof/

NICE!! ::thumb::

That is the article, glad you like the car.

 

[srrodder]

Very nice rides.

Glad you like them, I certainly do.

 

[srrodder]

OH so nice! both of them. The 71 looks like mine except I "added" the stripes. The 69 is awesome man. I love the way the 69 fastback looks.

Cars to be proud of.

Geoff.

Glad you like them. I have fun with each one.

 

[will e]

Many thanks to all who posted replies. The info should be very helpful in setting up the ignition system (and carb). In response to questions - the distributor is stock, but I will soon be installing a Pertronix Plug n Play distributor with an Ignitor III system and with an adjustable vacuum can so I can tune all the timing settings. The differential is a 3.25:1 TractionLok. Pictures of my car are posted on this website in the Garage and Registry areas under srrodder.

The adjustable vacuum can only allows tuning of some of the timing settings. The mechanical advance works independent of vacuum advance. Also, make sure you know what gets adjusted on the vacuum advance. On my Mallory the adjustment screw alters the AMOUNT of advance but has no impact on what vacuum level the advance is activated. And it seems to be all for nothing. This isn't bad, it's just important to understand how yours works when making adjustments.

Great looking car! It doesn't look that cold in the pictures.

 

[srrodder]

Many thanks to all who posted replies. The info should be very helpful in setting up the ignition system (and carb). In response to questions - the distributor is stock, but I will soon be installing a Pertronix Plug n Play distributor with an Ignitor III system and with an adjustable vacuum can so I can tune all the timing settings. The differential is a 3.25:1 TractionLok. Pictures of my car are posted on this website in the Garage and Registry areas under srrodder.

The adjustable vacuum can only allows tuning of some of the timing settings. The mechanical advance works independent of vacuum advance. Also, make sure you know what gets adjusted on the vacuum advance. On my Mallory the adjustment screw alters the AMOUNT of advance but has no impact on what vacuum level the advance is activated. And it seems to be all for nothing. This isn't bad, it's just important to understand how yours works when making adjustments.

Great looking car! It doesn't look that cold in the pictures.

Thanks, and warm - I wish.

 

[sprint72]

Hey Guys.....just want to share a little of what I've learned over the years regarding the " where to set timing question"....although it became a very frustrating lesson for me attempting to fine tune my 351C after the rebuild and subsequently changing camshaft parameters, I imagine the toughest, yet most effective lesson was understanding that anything outside a stock rebuilt requires an extensive trial and error testing procedure to really determine whats best for your application.....here's a couple of things I've learned in the long ownership of my car that got me consistently in or very close to the optimum tuning window with the Crane hydraulic roller cam and overall package setup......automatic trannys seem to like shorter and a bit quicker ignition timing curves....I'm at 15 initial 38 total all in by 3200 rpm gives me the best "overall" street daily driven performance/economy with exceptional street manners regardless of traffic loads and/or temperature extremes....although 15 initial 38 total all in by 2600 gave me the best easily aggressive acceleration without a doubt and seemingly really allowed my engine to reveal the sleeper characteristics of this cam I use...562" intake..586" lift exhaust....with 216/224 duration @ .50..with 112 LSA ....apparently the LSA of your camshaft seems to be a huge factor in how you'll need to set up your timing protocols.....your carb type and cfm is also critical to what your engine will respond well too....so get out your sheet of paper.....try different setups.....varying both initial and total timing numbers..and see what works best for you....one of my favorite setups for timing with my car was 12 initial...40 total all in by 3200 rpm.....great power on the freeways responsive around town...BUT my old holley projection unit never made me comfortable that air fuel ratios, which I couldn't monitor with my setup, were ever really on target for a safe zone and so I backed it down to something more conservative.....but try different things and see how it goes.....also....dont do what I used to.....make the mistake of changing to many variables at once and that had me chasing my tail not knowing which variable of my setup wasn't right.......final tip....until you figure your timing out......be consistent with fuel grades...spark plug gaps...it will help maintain a good foundation to find out what really works for you.....

Good Luck

 

[srrodder]

Hey Guys.....just want to share a little of what I've learned over the years regarding the " where to set timing question"....although it became a very frustrating lesson for me attempting to fine tune my 351C after the rebuild and subsequently changing camshaft parameters, I imagine the toughest, yet most effective lesson was understanding that anything outside a stock rebuilt requires an extensive trial and error testing procedure to really determine whats best for your application.....here's a couple of things I've learned in the long ownership of my car that got me consistently in or very close to the optimum tuning window with the Crane hydraulic roller cam and overall package setup......automatic trannys seem to like shorter and a bit quicker ignition timing curves....I'm at 15 initial 38 total all in by 3200 rpm gives me the best "overall" street daily driven performance/economy with exceptional street manners regardless of traffic loads and/or temperature extremes....although 15 initial 38 total all in by 2600 gave me the best easily aggressive acceleration without a doubt and seemingly really allowed my engine to reveal the sleeper characteristics of this cam I use...562" intake..586" lift exhaust....with 216/224 duration @ .50..with 112 LSA ....apparently the LSA of your camshaft seems to be a huge factor in how you'll need to set up your timing protocols.....your carb type and cfm is also critical to what your engine will respond well too....so get out your sheet of paper.....try different setups.....varying both initial and total timing numbers..and see what works best for you....one of my favorite setups for timing with my car was 12 initial...40 total all in by 3200 rpm.....great power on the freeways responsive around town...BUT my old holley projection unit never made me comfortable that air fuel ratios, which I couldn't monitor with my setup, were ever really on target for a safe zone and so I backed it down to something more conservative.....but try different things and see how it goes.....also....dont do what I used to.....make the mistake of changing to many variables at once and that had me chasing my tail not knowing which variable of my setup wasn't right.......final tip....until you figure your timing out......be consistent with fuel grades...spark plug gaps...it will help maintain a good foundation to find out what really works for you.....

Good Luck

Thanks for the info - all great stuff.