My 351C does not like premium oil filters

[will e]

It appears to me the Mobil 1 and K&N filters don't actually get used when they are installed.

I used a Mobil 1 a while back. I didn't put much oil in it before installing it. When I went to remove it there was still very little oil in it. I had bought another Mobil 1 filter but with those results I returned it and got a Fram.

Fram oil filters always had a lot of oil in them when I removed them.

My wife's Liberty has a real PITA to change oil filter. I found the K&N with the nut on the end was easiest to remove. While I didn't have an issue with removing the filters on the Mustang I figured I would put a K&N on there since I love my car. I primed the filter a little. But to my surprise, when I removed it, there was very little oil in the filter itself.

I installed another K&N filter but decided I would check after a week or so.

Today I checked. First, I checked the oil level. It was a good quarter inch above the top safe line. I had only added 5 quarts. I remove the new K&N filter and, again, it was almost empty. The outside holes almost appeared dry.

I screwed in a completely empty fram ph8a and fired the motor up. I let it run for about 5 minutes and then sit for another 15 minute. I checked the oil level and it is now at the top of the safe.

So I believe for some reason my 351C doesn't like these two filters.

I have a stock oil pump, good oil pressure. I was running Valvoline vr1 20/50 but switched to vr1 10/30 this last oil change.

I am not bashing these two brands. Like I said, I use the K&N in our liberty. I also use them in my Ford Sport track.

But if you have a Cleveland you might pay attention and see if you have similar results.

Tomorrow I will pull the Fram as see if it is 'full'. When I pulled the Mobil 1 and K&N there was NO oil dripping as I unscrewed the filter. This is unusual.

 

[jeff8877]

Very interesting...keep us posted.

 

[MeZapU]

Call me crazy, but I always check the integrity of the check valve in any new oil filter by 1st cleaning the filter mounting flange, then breathing in with my mouth over the threaded hole. It should be quite difficult but not impossible. You should then not be able to blow air through the filter if the check valve is operating properly. If you can you have some good lungs.

A properly operating check valve will prevent the oil from flowing back into the oil pan upon shutdown. I know the PH8A/PH16 Fram and FL-1A Motorcraft filters use check valves. I have never pony'd up for the K&N or Mobil 1 filters so I cant say if they even have one or not.

 

[Jim and Jutta]

Interesting indeed. I once tried a K&N filter and noticed the same thing when I took it off, very little oil in it when I removed it. I've used a Fram ever since which are always full of oil upon removal. It may be that the K&N is designed not to retain that much oil in the filter, who knows.

 

[will e]

The angle of the filter installed is such that there is no way for the oil to leak out.

 

[mustang68]

It appears to me the Mobil 1 and K&N filters don't actually get used when they are installed.

I used a Mobil 1 a while back. I didn't put much oil in it before installing it. When I went to remove it there was still very little oil in it. I had bought another Mobil 1 filter but with those results I returned it and got a Fram.

Fram oil filters always had a lot of oil in them when I removed them.

My wife's Liberty has a real PITA to change oil filter. I found the K&N with the nut on the end was easiest to remove. While I didn't have an issue with removing the filters on the Mustang I figured I would put a K&N on there since I love my car. I primed the filter a little. But to my surprise, when I removed it, there was very little oil in the filter itself.

I installed another K&N filter but decided I would check after a week or so.

Today I checked. First, I checked the oil level. It was a good quarter inch above the top safe line. I had only added 5 quarts. I remove the new K&N filter and, again, it was almost empty. The outside holes almost appeared dry.

I screwed in a completely empty fram ph8a and fired the motor up. I let it run for about 5 minutes and then sit for another 15 minute. I checked the oil level and it is now at the top of the safe.

So I believe for some reason my 351C doesn't like these two filters.

I have a stock oil pump, good oil pressure. I was running Valvoline vr1 20/50 but switched to vr1 10/30 this last oil change.

I am not bashing these two brands. Like I said, I use the K&N in our liberty. I also use them in my Ford Sport track.

But if you have a Cleveland you might pay attention and see if you have similar results.

Tomorrow I will pull the Fram as see if it is 'full'. When I pulled the Mobil 1 and K&N there was NO oil dripping as I unscrewed the filter. This is unusual.

Why would anybody use a Fram oil filter on their Ford? I never heard anything good about their oil filters. There was U TUBE video a while back they cut open a half dozen oil filters to see how well they were made and Fram was one of the cheapest made that they tested. I have always changed my own oil and used motorcraft filters on my 351 cleveland and I am the original owner. Never had a problem in fact I use them in all my Fords which I own 5 vehicles. Have used them for over 40 years in many different Fords...... MOTORCRAFTS HAVE AN ANTI DRAIN-BACK VALVE... HOLDS OIL IN THE FILTER TO PROTECT YOUR ENGINE DURING START UP.

:run_horse:

 

[Totalled]

Frams are garbage. Low pleat elements, and cardboard end caps. Run a motorcraft, wix, or putolator.

 

[Doug The Dog]

I agree with Mustang68 and Totalled that Fram filters are not as good of quality as Motorcraft or Wix. I personally will not use them. Keep this in mind though. If you change your oil religiously every 2000-3000 miles, the Fram filter will work fine. If you change your oil every 5000-7500 miles, you may be asking for trouble, as they don't have as many pleats of filter material, and use a piece of stamped steel instead of a spring inside them. I stick to Motorcraft filters in my vehicles. By the way, CARQUEST and NAPA premium filters are made by WIX, and are very good quality. Just my two cents....

-Travis

 

[jbojo]

I have been using Wix with no issues so far.

 

[will e]

I have had this car for 30 years, well before the internet. Fram was a very popular brand back then. They also advertised heavily. I used Fram and they worked. I never had an issue with them. I went with the premium filters because of all hype against Fram.

But like I noted above. They do not work in my engine. I don't know why. That is the topic of this thread. If someone has an idea or similar experiences with these premium filters (Mobil 1 or K&N) in 351c I would love to hear them.

I also appreciate the input in what other filters appear to work.

But I will take a Fram that is filtering the oil over a better oil filter that is bypassing the filter. Call me crazy.

I found this video to be interesting. It looks at two different kinds of bypass filters:



One fortunate thing about my car and the oil probably not getting filtered is I hardly ever drive it. The oil gets changed out due to age, not use. I probably put less than 1000 miles on it between oil changes.

I went searching for direct comparisons of the filters that work on a 351C. This page has a lot of information:

http://billhughes.com/mirror/oilfilterstudy.htm

 

[woolznaz]

Interesting timing on this thread. I just changed mine last week and there was hardly any oil at all in the Wix filter I was using. I thought that was very odd, but didn't give it much thought until this thread. Like Will e, I don't put many miles on the car and was changing it due to age/time rather than miles.

 

[will e]

Did you try another Wix filter? Did you 'pre-fill' the filter?

In my opinion the filter should be almost full of oil when it is removed. The angle is such that even with a bad drain back valve there still should be a lot of oil in the filter.

 

[Kit Sullivan]

Why is everyone so concerned with how much oil is in the filter when you remove it? The filter on older Fords are all angled downward to some degree, so there is still oil in the filter after shutting down the engine.

Tbe concern about "dry starts" while waiting for the filter to fill up after a start is not really the concern most think it is.

 

[Jim and Jutta]

Why is everyone so concerned with how much oil is in the filter when you remove it? The filter on older Fords are all angled downward to some degree, so there is still oil in the filter after shutting down the engine.

Tbe concern about "dry starts" while waiting for the filter to fill up after a start is not really the concern most think it is.

The concern is that high end modern oil filters "may" not be porous enough for our engines, due to increased filtering resulting in lack of oil circulation through the filter. Today's engines are designed to far tighter tolerances than our 40 year old engines so filters have to catch more to avoid damages, so the high end filters may be to restrictive for our engines...thus the lack of oil in them when removed. It may be an invalid concern but it is note worthy that some of us have found far less oil in a high end filter than a more porous cheaper filter when changing them. It could be that higher end filters have little volume for oil due to the increased filter contents and it's not an issue but inquiring minds want to know.

Jim

 

[will e]

The K&N, when I removed it, was about 1/4 full of oil and it dripped almost nothing when I removed it. It was about 1/4 when I installed it, I usually 'prime' the filter. My concern is the filter never gets off of 'bypass' mode. If it had the filter would have been almost full of oil.

I have leaned that many filters start in bypass mode when the oil is cold, especially in cold weather. So a filter in bypass mode isn't unusual. A filter staying in bypass mode is.

 

[MeZapU]

Many people get all bent out of shape over a oil filters build quality, amount of filter media, check valves, you name it. It is not that big of a deal. How many times have you ever heard of anyone starting an engine and it doing harm because the oil had not pressurized the system .1 seconds sooner than they think it should have. I've seen engines start up and drive for miles with no oil in the pan, to later fix the drain plug, add oil, and the car be driven fine for another four years (1984 Subaru GL). Newer engines having tighter tolerances! I can tell you the bearing tolerances on a new Mercedes are the exact same as in our cars. Ever see how small the oil filter is on some of the new cars these days? They are 1/2 the size of a PH-16. And people complain about a Fram filter having less filter media vs a Motorcraft/Purolator filter. It's nonsense.

Back to the original post. I don't think the filter being low on oil is a big deal. Back in the 60's when many engines still had a bypass style oil filter, the filters always would be dry upon startup as they would be inverted and flow everything back to the oil pan. As long as you have good fresh oil in your engine it will be fine. If you were constantly having the sound of hydraulic lifter chatter upon startup, then I might start to think something was wrong.

 

[Kit Sullivan]

Today's engines are indeed built to tighter tolerances...but that in no way equates to the engines being "tighter" as far as restrictions go. In fact, modern engines are built with as much low-restriction technogy as possible, and are far "looser" than they have ever been.

Oil pressure at idle on a modern engine is typically between 25-40lbs and around 50-60 at cruise.

Older engines idled around 40-50, and 70 lbs was a typical cruise PSI.

If anything, modern oil filters are less restrictive than older versions, while trapping more particles on initial pass as well as multi-pass.

The cheapest Fram, STP or Duetch you can buy is still perfectly adequate.

The only real concern is going extended miles of a standard birch filter. The filter media may start to disintegrate in as little as 3000 miles, mostly from gasoline dilution.

The expensive synthetic-media filters are nearly impervious to gasoline degradation, so they will hold up longer, for modern car's extended drain intervals.

If you change your Mustang's oil every 2000-3000 miles, or at least once a year...a cheap filter is fine.

 

[goodnigh]

My K&N oil filter is always full of oil, about a quart.

mike

 

[will e]

My K&N oil filter is always full of oil, about a quart.

Thanks for the input. yeah, that is what I would expect too. Can you provide details on oil, weight and oil pressure you are seeing?

Do you prime the filter as full as you can get it or do you put it on completely empty?