Please help ID this shifter!

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airfido

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Hey folks,

I could really use some help identifying the 4-speed toploader shifter on our 1971, 351C.  I have researched the transmission part numbers and it is a match for a 1969 390.  The shifter has a Hurst handle on it, but the bolts don't really align where it connects to the shift box.  Our biggest problem (and it will be obvious from the pictures) is that the last owner had to cut the floorboard to make it fit.  The result is the shifter is offset to the left side of the transmission, and the center console will not fit over the top of the shifter.

Questions:

1) What shifter is this?

2) Is there a mismatch of some sort that I can fix to center the shifter?

3) What shifter should this car have?  Would like to use something that came with either the 1971 351C 4v or the 1969 390.





 
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Its tough to tell from your pictures what's going on.

It looks like the shifter mounting plate from a Super Shifter or V-gate, but I can't tell if that's a Super Shifter or not. If it is an SS, that shifter is designed to mount farther off the side of the trans so that the linkage is in a straight line to the arms on the trans for racing and needs a giant hole in the floor to accommodate it.

Whatever it is, it is too high off of the trans and too far forward (as you have noticed!).

Also, the tag on the passenger side of the trans (RUG-M something I think is a 68-69 Mustang/ Cougar FE?) assumes that nobody has modified the transmission (swapped talkshaft housings, input shafts etc.).

Can you see the casting number on the tailshaft housing?

If you poke around on David Kee's site you may be able to compare tailshaft housing pics to yours and at least figure out what you have:

http://www.davidkeetoploaders.com/tailhousingid.htm

I'm pretty sure that if that tailhousing is really for an FE Mustang, it won't position the sifter in the right spot in a Mustang if its bolted to a small block- you need a tailshaft housing for a small block Mustang.

If you could locate a tailshaft housing for a small block Mustang you could then use a Competition Plus shifter to get the handle back in the center of the original floor opening to allow using the console. But that is a lot of expensive if's...

-Matt

 

airfido

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Thanks Matt,

I will get some better pics and the casting numbers within a day or two. I believe it is a RUG though.

JB

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

 

Hemikiller

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I have seen that shifter mounting plate before, I just cannot remember the application. There should be a stamped number on the plate that can be Google searched for an exact application.

It's a Hurst and my gut says one of the Super Shifter variants that were available over the last 50 years. Usually it comes with a straight stick, but the PO has substituted an offset stick, guessing to fit it under a console.

https://www.shifterdoc.com/productcart/pc/Hurst-4-Speed-Street-Super-Shifter-Kit-Ford-Top-Loader-T-C-432-433-8p58.htm#pcShowProductLDesc

You tailhousing is consistent with a '69 390 application, and is most likely a C70R casting.

http://www.mustangtek.com/transmission/Transmissions.html

 
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Here's a pic of the Hurst 4 speed on my 71 Mach 1. This is factory.







Note; I use a 3/8" plastic piece under the boot so as to reduce the gap between the mini console and shifter boot.



 

airfido

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Thank everyone.  Here are some more pictures (below) and the casting numbers off the transmission:

Plate:  RUG M3

Body:  C8AR 7003-0 W1 (3 could be an 8, and the last 0 may be a D?)

Tail:  C70R-7A040-A

Elbow attached to chrome shifter looks homemade to me.

Questions:

1) What shifter is this?

2) Is there a mismatch of some sort that I can fix to center the shifter?

3) What shifter should this car have?  Would like to use something that came with either the 1971 351C 4v or the 1969 390.















 
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Hmm! certainly NOT Mustang. Apart from not being correct, does it work? What are the ratio's 1st, 2nd, 3rd. Is it 3 or 4 speed? 

Just a pity someone did a hack job on the tunnel, but that can be repaired if necessary. Also, was this a manual trans car originally although I suspect a conversion job.

Anything else you can add that might help the experts (that's not me) identify what it is, where it came from and why it shouldn't be in there. lol on the last bit!

Geoff.

 

airfido

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Hmm! certainly NOT Mustang. Apart from not being correct, does it work? What are the ratio's 1st, 2nd, 3rd. Is it 3 or 4 speed? 

Just a pity someone did a hack job on the tunnel, but that can be repaired if necessary. Also, was this a manual trans car originally although I suspect a conversion job.

Anything else you can add that might help the experts (that's not me) identify what it is, where it came from and why it shouldn't be in there. lol on the last bit!

Geoff.
The shifter actually works fine.

Not sure what the ratios are, but 1st and 2nd are quite close together.

The rest seem to be normally spaced.  RPMs are a bit high at highway speeds.

The transmission is a 4-speed.

This was originally an automatic, so your instincts are spot-on.

Here are the rear-end numbers:

WES - T2  0MA

I believe these numbers reflect a 2.75,  9" ring gear, 28 splines.

The car runs well, but we are trying to clean up quite a few loose ends (like the loose front end).  I have a center console, but it will not install over this shifter.  Here is the car.  No, not a real Boss, but a very nice body and paint tribute.



 

airfido

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Here's a pic of the Hurst 4 speed on my 71 Mach 1. This is factory.







Note; I use a 3/8" plastic piece under the boot so as to reduce the gap between the mini console and shifter boot.

I like this setup.  So is this what is referred to as the Hurst Comp Plus?

Thanks,

JB

 
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Hmm! certainly NOT Mustang. Apart from not being correct, does it work? What are the ratio's 1st, 2nd, 3rd. Is it 3 or 4 speed? 

Just a pity someone did a hack job on the tunnel, but that can be repaired if necessary. Also, was this a manual trans car originally although I suspect a conversion job.

Anything else you can add that might help the experts (that's not me) identify what it is, where it came from and why it shouldn't be in there. lol on the last bit!

Geoff.
The shifter actually works fine.

Not sure what the ratios are, but 1st and 2nd are quite close together.

The rest seem to be normally spaced.  RPMs are a bit high at highway speeds.

The transmission is a 4-speed.

This was originally an automatic, so your instincts are spot-on.

Here are the rear-end numbers:

WES - T2  0MA

I believe these numbers reflect a 2.75,  9" ring gear, 28 splines.

The car runs well, but we are trying to clean up quite a few loose ends (like the loose front end).  I have a center console, but it will not install over this shifter.  Here is the car.  No, not a real Boss, but a very nice body and paint tribute.

Here's a pic of a MiniChamps model I have, look familiar?



Note the plinth calls it "Dark Green".

Your axle tag code will be "2" on the door sticker and it is a 2.75:1 open dif. Final ratio will be 1:1, so with a 2.75 ratio, rpm's ought to be lower at speed. My book shows it as a 71 or 72 351C 2V atuo. My 3.25:1 open dif runs at about 2800 at 60 mph on GPS as well as clock.

Nice looking car by the way, my fav color.

 
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1971 Mustang Mach 1, M code, 4 speed.
Here's a pic of the Hurst 4 speed on my 71 Mach 1. This is factory.





Note; I use a 3/8" plastic piece under the boot so as to reduce the gap between the mini console and shifter boot.

https://ibb.co/vhqyjJN

I like this setup.  So is this what is referred to as the Hurst Comp Plus?

Thanks,

JB
 Basically yes. but there is much controversy on whether it is or is not a Comp Plus. Some are stamped, some are not. It seems it much depended on who was doing the stamping on a particular day. I had my shifter sent to Hurst Shifters Online to be rebuilt earlier this year and I asked that question. I have an email from them somewhere to explain this. If I find it, I'll post.

Geoff.

Note; I reattached the email after masking address. Mine was NOT stamped by the way.

Hurst comp plus.pdf

 

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To answer your question about whether or not the OE shifter is a Hurst Compeition Plus- yes it is and no it isn't. The OEM shifter Ford Sourced from Hurst has a different removable stick and the underfloor linkage is different (the ford linkage uses softer bushings).

A '71 OEM Hurst shifter setup is hard to find and very expensive. Geoff's pictures show the OEM shifter's detachable handle, and the offset to center the stick in the floor opening is part of the shifter.

The aftermarket Hurst Competition Plus does not have a removable handle- the handle is part of the shifter and the offest is part of the chrome handle.

Easiest option (and still not cheap) would be to buy an aftermarket Comp Plus but it looks different than the factory setup...

 
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To answer your question about whether or not the OE shifter is a Hurst Compeition Plus- yes it is and no it isn't. The OEM shifter Ford Sourced from Hurst has a different removable stick and the underfloor linkage is different (the ford linkage uses softer bushings).

A '71 OEM Hurst shifter setup is hard to find and very expensive. Geoff's pictures show the OEM shifter's detachable handle, and the offset to center the stick in the floor opening is part of the shifter. 

The aftermarket Hurst Competition Plus does not have a removable handle- the handle is part of the shifter and the offest is part of the chrome handle.

Easiest option (and still not cheap) would be to buy an aftermarket Comp Plus but it looks different than the factory setup...
 Yeah maybe not on the aftermarket. I tried that option (before I decided to spend almost 400 bucks Cdn on the rebuild) and it's no where near looking correct. The handle is a lot longer and not quite enough off-set. In a pinch it could be made to work IF  it was cut shorter and reshaped. They also do NOT tell you that you need to buy the aftermarket shift rods, so there's another 300 bucks or so on top of the cost of the shifter. What I did like about it was it has the over-shift stop bolts that the factory one does not have, but could be fitted.

 

Hemikiller

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Most will refer to the 70-73 Ford & Mercury 4 speed shifters as a Competition Plus unit. Correct or not, the four I have are all stamped as such and the construction is nearly identical to what Hurst sold over the counter. These were special units sourced and spec'd out by every automaker, as having your 4 speed performance car "Hurst shifted" was a big deal in the musclecar era. They were optimized by the engineering departments for quick and easy assembly and adjustment. Ford's snap in bushings and bolt down slotted adjusters were a lot faster to install on the powertrain assembly line than the spring clips and threaded rods sold by Hurst in their units. That's also the reason Ford (and GM) used the push-in handles with the spring retainer clips. It takes only a second or two to pop the handle in, versus dorking around with two bolts and a retainer plate. The factory units are a good shifting unit, but the aftermarket Hurst has a much more positive feel. Is it exactly the same as the 71-73 stick? No, and it's not intended to be. Hurst sells that box to fit all 65-73 Mustangs, 66-73 Fairlane/Torino and the Mercury cousins. It fits and it works fine. They have gotten pricey since Hurst got bought out by Holley. The box alone is now over $400, with the installation kit coming in around $250 from Summit. The 71 Mustang/Cougar shifter is not rare or hard to find, but it will get expensive for a nice quality complete unit.

https://www.summitracing.com/parts/huu-3913180/overview/year/1971/make/ford/model/mustang

Now, with that said, your transmission has the C7OR tailhousing, which was not used in a Mustang after 1969. Therefore, you cannot directly bolt a correct shifter on without some work. The bolt pattern for the later shifter is on the end of the tail, not in the middle like yours. You need to....

A) Swap to a C4DR, C4ZR or C6OR tailhousing with the proper shifter mounting bosses and either locate an original 71 shifter setup, or use the aftemarket shifter with the Hurst 373-7638 install kit

https://www.summitracing.com/parts/huu-3737637/overview/

B) use the adapter plate sold by NPD and other mustang vendors with the above shifters, or

https://www.npdlink.com/product/mounting-plate-shifter-allows-use-of-torino/106067?backurl=search%2Fproducts%3Fsearch_terms%3D7e046-1a%26top_parent%3D0%26year%3D

C) Leave the C7OR tail in place and use a '69 Mustang 390 installation kit with the Hurst shifter I linked to above.

https://www.summitracing.com/parts/huu-3735587/overview/

toploadertail.JPG

 
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1971 Mustang Mach 1, M code, 4 speed.
Most will refer to the 70-73 Ford & Mercury 4 speed shifters as a Competition Plus unit. Correct or not, the four I have are all stamped as such and the construction is nearly identical to what Hurst sold over the counter. These were special units sourced and spec'd out by every automaker, as having your 4 speed performance car "Hurst shifted" was a big deal in the musclecar era. They were optimized by the engineering departments for quick and easy assembly and adjustment. Ford's snap in bushings and bolt down slotted adjusters were a lot faster to install on the powertrain assembly line than the spring clips and threaded rods sold by Hurst in their units. That's also the reason Ford (and GM) used the push-in handles with the spring retainer clips. It takes only a second or two to pop the handle in, versus dorking around with two bolts and a retainer plate. The factory units are a good shifting unit, but the aftermarket Hurst has a much more positive feel. Is it exactly the same as the 71-73 stick? No, and it's not intended to be. Hurst sells that box to fit all 65-73 Mustangs, 66-73 Fairlane/Torino and the Mercury cousins. It fits and it works fine. They have gotten pricey since Hurst got bought out by Holley. The box alone is now over $400, with the installation kit coming in around $250 from Summit. The 71 Mustang/Cougar shifter is not rare or hard to find, but it will get expensive for a nice quality complete unit.

https://www.summitracing.com/parts/huu-3913180/overview/year/1971/make/ford/model/mustang

Now, with that said, your transmission has the C7OR tailhousing, which was not used in a Mustang after 1969. Therefore, you cannot directly bolt a correct shifter on without some work. The bolt pattern for the later shifter is on the end of the tail, not in the middle like yours. You need to....
  Very good write-up Hemikiller. You certainly do know your sh**, stuff!

I just reposted the email (attachment) I got from Scotty at Hurst Shifters Online, it may add some clarity... or not. The shifter you show from Summit is the one I bought and returned. Would it have worked with the install kit, yes, but was not acceptable. 

For our friend airfido, if it works okay and he's not too worried about it looking correct, perhaps he should leave it be for now and look around for correct parts as and when, then change it.

 
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airfido

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Thanks Guys,

Your knowledge is greatly appreciated. We just replaced the entire front suspension, so the shifter project was on hold. Just now getting back to it.

JB

 
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Thanks Guys,

Your knowledge is greatly appreciated.  We just replaced the entire front suspension, so the shifter project was on hold.  Just now getting back to it.

JB
Maybe try contacting Scotty at www.Hurstshiftersonline.com and see IF and I do mean IF, he has any for sale correct for the 71. might be worth a shot. I assume you need the correct linkages as well, going to get expensive!

There was an ad for one in Ontario Canada, but he wanted 400 bucks for it and that was NOT rebuilt, so likely another 250 US for that. Not worth it in my eyes, but if you want me to try contact him, let me know.

 
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