Saginaw 800 Power steering Box rebuild

Stanglover

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Today I did some serious digging into the part numbers for the replacement ball kits for these PS boxes

I went to my local Ford dealership where they still have a Micro-Fiche scanner. I was able to find this number and suffixes for the Saginaw PS box.

It only listed for fixed ratio boxes with 22 balls. Variable ratio has 24.

The Ford part number is C5AZ-3647 with suffixes C  @.28125 dia. D @ .28133, E @ .28141, F @ .28149 and G @ .28157.

I then Googled this part number and found www.rearcounter.com  On there I was able to find most of the sizes listed. However, the listing also shows 3647-X. No idea what X means. On E-Bay it also list the 3647-X but no other info. I have sent pricing request to Mc.Donald Obsolete Parts as well as Dennis Carpenter.

So folks, it may be possible to purchase these illusive parts. Now I'm wondering what other replacement parts are available for these boxes. Maybe I'll do some more digging and see what I come up with.

Geoff.

EDIT UPDATE: McDonald Obsolete Parts replied in minutes. They have sizes E & F available for $25.00 a set  +shipping.

I'll update when I have more info.

 
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secluff

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Geoff, good detective work. Most of these type parts were discontinued in the early 80's. With Ford's reman parts division adding components such as steering gears, pumps, alternators, etc sales of these type of repair parts fell to the point the were discontinued to the dealer and only available to Ford's reman division . The part number for the reman only parts added a "MR".  So C5AZ-3647-C  became C5AZ-3647-CMR. Sorta like the non-existent distributor shaft bushings that only the rebuilders seem to have and guard like gold!  

There is also a C5AZ-3647-B @ .28117 dia.

The catalog lists the 22 piece ball kit for PS Saginaw gears SPA- S, T, U and V for 65-69 full size Ford and 71/ Mustang. If your variable ratio box has 24, there could be a catalog error.

The C5AZ-3647-X you see is a replacement for C5AZ-3647-A which is a 62 piece kit @ .25" dia which is listed for the 61-64 Thunderbird only.

 

Stanglover

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Geoff, good detective work. Most of these type parts were discontinued in the early 80's. With Ford's reman parts division adding components such as steering gears, pumps, alternators, etc sales of these type of repair parts fell to the point the were discontinued to the dealer and only available to Ford's reman division . The part number for the reman only parts added a "MR".  So C5AZ-3647-C  became C5AZ-3647-CMR. Sorta like the non-existent distributor shaft bushings that only the rebuilders seem to have and guard like gold!  

There is also a C5AZ-3647-B @ .28117 dia.

The catalog lists the 22 piece ball kit for PS Saginaw gears SPA- S, T, U and V for 65-69 full size Ford and 71/ Mustang. If your variable ratio box has 24, there could be a catalog error.

The C5AZ-3647-X you see is a replacement for C5AZ-3647-A which is a 62 piece kit @ .25" dia which is listed for the 61-64 Thunderbird only.
 Steve, as usual, I / we can count on your knowledge and expertise to find the hard part numbers. This is excellent information to have, so thank you from me.

  From what I have found out and from my manual, the normal ball size, unless stamped on the rack piston, is a number 7 with a mean diameter of .28125"

 This relates to a C5AZ-3647-C. Now here's where confusion sets in. Why does the Ford Manual NOT show the Ford part numbers or at least use the same letter system? When I was at the dealership, none of the manual numbers meant anything to the service guy, he had look it up by vehicle year and type. Typical confusion!

Also, from the listings I found, C5AZ-3647-B is not available anywhere and in fact would not be useful to a rebuild as it would be too small in diameter.

 Finding a description for C5AZ-3647-X was very interesting. This is listed by several suppliers, but NONE explain what it is. NOT what we need for sure then Eh! (the Canadians will get that!)

 Number of balls in a set. I'll have to ask that question. I guess in a pinch, one could use 1 shiny ball and 1 dull ball from the old set to make up the numbers. That wouldn't make any significant difference.

 Thanks again Steve,

Geoff.

 

Stanglover

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This is pretty cool, I’m glad to see you found a source.
 Yes indeed.

 But now what do I do with the 100 standard 9/32" (.2810") balls I ordered??

Anybody want some balls?

Geoff.

 
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You better have a great set of micrometers to measure those to that accuracy. I have a 0 - 1 Brown and Sharp that were made for doing gauge work and .00005" it pretty easy to achieve. Your body heat will change the size more than that.

Great info on the box components.

When I taught shop class at the local Tech College here I made it a point to show the students how difficult it is to produce something and hold .0001" tolerance. When grinding there can be no heat build up and you have to inspect at 70 deg. Would go to break and have one person hold a 4" Joe block and leave another on the surface plate. Then we would go back and put a tenth indicator on and there would be around .0005" inch increase from body heat only.

Bearings are one of the most accurate products produced and are lapped to size.

 

Stanglover

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You better have a great set of micrometers to measure those to that accuracy. I have a 0 - 1 Brown and Sharp that were made for doing gauge work and .00005" it pretty easy to achieve. Your body heat will change the size more than that.

Great info on the box components.

When I taught shop class at the local Tech College here I made it a point to show the students how difficult it is to produce something and hold .0001" tolerance. When grinding there can be no heat build up and you have to inspect at 70 deg. Would go to break and have one person hold a 4" Joe block and leave another on the surface plate. Then we would go back and put a tenth indicator on and there would be around .0005" inch increase from body heat only.

Bearings are one of the most accurate products produced and are lapped to size.
 David, too true. It's amazing anything could have been made that accurately years ago. I do have a good mic, but for this, at the end of the day all we need is the preloads to be 'close' and the slop all but gone. We aren't building rockets here. Having said that, if the preloads are too high or the balls too large, the box could jamb and that would be a very bad thing at 70 mph!

On a side note, nothing to do with Mustangs, I just got home from the Windsor (Ontario) airport Historical Aircraft hangar where we are rebuilding a Lancaster Bomber. Not to fly unfortunately, too expensive, but to be an air worthy static display. I have not been involved for a couple of years due to hip issues and I had not seen the aircraft almost totally disassembled as it is now. Talk about amazing workmanship and these planes had a life expectancy of a few sorties. It just blows the mind on just how they could achieve the precision they did without the use of computers or CNC machines. We would be hard pressed to reach those standards today I'm sure.

 

secluff

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Geoff, since this is your thread I guess you won't mind if I stray a little also. Your remark about the Lancaster Bomber and how well they were built at a time with out the use of computers and CNC machines is so true. I was in New Orleans a couple of weeks ago at a air show sponsored by the WWII Museum. It was held at the old Lake Front Airport which I believe was built in the 30's and was a fitting place for  the vintage aircraft to be shown. There were P-51's, F4U's, P-38'S, etc and all types of  two and four engine bombers. The amazing thing was that ALL of them were flown in there. Sure, they have been rebuilt/restored, but to original specs. So like you remarked, it shows some amazing engineering these planes received at at time when there were no electronic aids to help in the design of these still flying aircraft!

 

Stanglover

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Geoff, since this is your thread I guess you won't mind if I stray a little also. Your remark about the Lancaster Bomber and how well they were built at a time with out the use of computers and CNC machines is so true. I was in New Orleans a couple of weeks ago at a air show sponsored by the WWII Museum. It was held at the old Lake Front Airport which I believe was built in the 30's and was a fitting place for  the vintage aircraft to be shown. There were P-51's, F4U's, P-38'S, etc and all types of  two and four engine bombers. The amazing thing was that ALL of them were flown in there. Sure, they have been rebuilt/restored, but to original specs. So like you remarked, it shows some amazing engineering these planes received at time when there were no electronic aids to help in the design of these still flying aircraft!
Yeah Steve, no problems straying a bit, I do it all the time!! There is a point here.

As for flying vintage bombers, I had a opportunity to go through a B17G at a local small airport about 3 years ago. If I'd had 600 bucks to spare, I could have gone for a flight in it. A year later, we had a Mitchel bomber there. Someone somewhere has the bucks to get these wonderful examples of craftsmanship flying again. There is just 1 Lancaster still flying in Canada and that is the sister to the one we have in Windsor. There is one in England that was flying but I'm not sure if it still is.

 
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You better have a great set of micrometers to measure those to that accuracy. I have a 0 - 1 Brown and Sharp that were made for doing gauge work and .00005" it pretty easy to achieve. Your body heat will change the size more than that.

Great info on the box components.

When I taught shop class at the local Tech College here I made it a point to show the students how difficult it is to produce something and hold .0001" tolerance. When grinding there can be no heat build up and you have to inspect at 70 deg. Would go to break and have one person hold a 4" Joe block and leave another on the surface plate. Then we would go back and put a tenth indicator on and there would be around .0005" inch increase from body heat only.

Bearings are one of the most accurate products produced and are lapped to size.
 David, too true. It's amazing anything could have been made that accurately years ago. I do have a good mic, but for this, at the end of the day all we need is the preloads to be 'close' and the slop all but gone. We aren't building rockets here. Having said that, if the preloads are too high or the balls too large, the box could jamb and that would be a very bad thing at 70 mph!

On a side note, nothing to do with Mustangs, I just got home from the Windsor (Ontario) airport Historical Aircraft hangar where we are rebuilding a Lancaster Bomber. Not to fly unfortunately, too expensive, but to be an air worthy static display. I have not been involved for a couple of years due to hip issues and I had not seen the aircraft almost totally disassembled as it is now. Talk about amazing workmanship and these planes had a life expectancy of a few sorties. It just blows the mind on just how they could achieve the precision they did without the use of computers or CNC machines. We would be hard pressed to reach those standards today I'm sure.
I had two uncles that worked at Timken bearing in Canton Ohio. One was a die maker the other worked in the grinding room for the big bearings. When I say big some went into the steel rolling mills to hot rolled steel. You could sit inside the bearings. The only grinder in the plant that could hold tolerance on them was made about 1920. The new grinders just could not do it.

When we were in tech school out teacher made us make our hand tools perfect pretty much. We learned how to hand lap the last few millionths of an inch off. No machine can hold tolerance a human can. Our 6" angle plate had to be within .0001" of square. Our grinder vice had to be able to hold a .1001" joe block on one side of the vise jaw and be tight enough to pick the vise up and you still be able to slide a .1000" joe block in the other side. So less than .00005" slop in the slide.

The best machines I ever ran were Moore Jig Bore and Moore Jig Grinder. You received an inspection report on the full travel of the table and spindle and it was all within 10 millionths of an inch. All of the final work was done by hand. Hand scraping of the table and hand lapping of the ways and lead screws. I did not get to go to the factory for training but couple that did said that only a couple people could be in some areas at a time the body heat would make it impossible to hold the tolerances if too many people were in the room.

I use to have to build dies that cut silver leaf almost. Components that went in reed relays that had to live for 100,000,000 actuation's in testing. The clearance between the punch and die was .0001" per side. The silver coil stock was kept in bank vault down the road from the shop. Was a compound die so it blanked, pierced two .040" dia. holes and formed one end of the part all in one stroke. We had to build our own die sets on the Moore Jig grinder. That company, Eaton Cutler Hammer, was one that headed to Mexico when the doors opened back in the 80's. They failed and could not keep anything going. Crashed all the tooling and I think pretty much ended Cutler Hammer in that market.

On the war effort. Henry Kaiser of Henry J fame built freighter ships during WWII. He came up with a process that he could build them faster than the U boats could sink them Could put a freighter together in 7 days if I recall right. Google it is amazing. Built in sections and brought together at yard and welded together and gone.

 

Stanglover

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I had two uncles that worked at Timken bearing in Canton Ohio. One was a die maker the other worked in the grinding room for the big bearings. When I say big some went into the steel rolling mills to hot rolled steel. You could sit inside the bearings. The only grinder in the plant that could hold tolerance on them was made about 1920. The new grinders just could not do it.

When we were in tech school out teacher made us make our hand tools perfect pretty much. We learned how to hand lap the last few millionths of an inch off. No machine can hold tolerance a human can. Our 6" angle plate had to be within .0001" of square. Our grinder vice had to be able to hold a .1001" joe block on one side of the vise jaw and be tight enough to pick the vise up and you still be able to slide a .1000" joe block in the other side. So less than .00005" slop in the slide.

The best machines I ever ran were Moore Jig Bore and Moore Jig Grinder. You received an inspection report on the full travel of the table and spindle and it was all within 10 millionths of an inch. All of the final work was done by hand. Hand scraping of the table and hand lapping of the ways and lead screws. I did not get to go to the factory for training but couple that did said that only a couple people could be in some areas at a time the body heat would make it impossible to hold the tolerances if too many people were in the room.

I use to have to build dies that cut silver leaf almost. Components that went in reed relays that had to live for 100,000,000 actuation's in testing. The clearance between the punch and die was .0001" per side. The silver coil stock was kept in bank vault down the road from the shop. Was a compound die so it blanked, pierced two .040" dia. holes and formed one end of the part all in one stroke. We had to build our own die sets on the Moore Jig grinder. That company, Eaton Cutler Hammer, was one that headed to Mexico when the doors opened back in the 80's. They failed and could not keep anything going. Crashed all the tooling and I think pretty much ended Cutler Hammer in that market.

On the war effort. Henry Kaiser of Henry J fame built freighter ships during WWII. He came up with a process that he could build them faster than the U boats could sink them Could put a freighter together in 7 days if I recall right. Google it is amazing. Built in sections and brought together at yard and welded together and gone.
  While I was not initially trained as a machinist, I'm a Silversmith and product designer, but as I progressed through life's changes, machining and mold making became necessary trades as well as becoming a "Prototype Specialist - Automotive". The final "change"  in my life found me working in a machine shop where most of the equipment was from WWII or before. The OD grinders and a couple of big lathes are still in daily use. The CNC's are only between 10 to 25 years old and are SHOT!! Can't beat old time craftsmanship!

 
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SVO2SCJ

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Don’t worry about your balls....worry about your toe (when doing this job)



 
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Stanglover

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Don’t worry about your balls....worry about your toe (when doing this job)
 Ooooow!! I remember you telling me about dropping the PS box on your foot. Even steel toe caps might not have stopped that, but safety first in future I guess.

 
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Don C

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Don’t worry about your balls....worry about your toe (when doing this job)
Ouch, I'll bet you created some new cuss words when that happened.

 

Stanglover

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Geoff, good detective work. Most of these type parts were discontinued in the early 80's. With Ford's reman parts division adding components such as steering gears, pumps, alternators, etc sales of these type of repair parts fell to the point the were discontinued to the dealer and only available to Ford's reman division . The part number for the reman only parts added a "MR".  So C5AZ-3647-C  became C5AZ-3647-CMR. Sorta like the non-existent distributor shaft bushings that only the rebuilders seem to have and guard like gold!  

There is also a C5AZ-3647-B @ .28117 dia.

The catalog lists the 22 piece ball kit for PS Saginaw gears SPA- S, T, U and V for 65-69 full size Ford and 71/ Mustang. If your variable ratio box has 24, there could be a catalog error.

The C5AZ-3647-X you see is a replacement for C5AZ-3647-A which is a 62 piece kit @ .25" dia which is listed for the 61-64 Thunderbird only.
 Steve, I have a request. Can you find the part numbers for the inlet and outlet brass seats for the Saginaw 800 box?

I may as well order whatever I can find at the same time.

Dennis Carpenter only has the C5AZ-3647-X ball set, but still no idea exactly what size they are. I asked, but no response.

Thanks,

Geoff.

 

secluff

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Geoff, I don't have a lot of pre 1965 info. The 61-64 T-Bird only part (C5AZ-3647-A R/B C5AZ-X) evidently picked up the 1965 level part number when the 60-64 MPC received it's final revision in 1969. The only size related number I see for the "X" ball is .25" diameter.

The inlet (pressure) and outlet (return) brass seats have Ford hardware numbers and not the typical Ford  formatted part number.

The pressure seat is 374309-S It is 7/16" dia,    top orifice is 9/32" with a 5/16" seat

The return seat is 374480-S     It is 3/8 dia,        top orifice is 9/32" with a 3/8" seat

If you have a favorite parts supplier you may want to check with them. I have have used Green Sales (1-800-543-4959) a few times and they show stock on the 374480-S. The 374309-S I have seen on E-Bay and is still available from Ford. So you may want to check with your local Ford dealer to see what he has. I believe Canadian dealers may be on a different parts locator system from the US dealers so I cannot verify what they may have.

Let me know if you have any problems with the numbers.    :)



 
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Stanglover

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Geoff, I don't have a lot of pre 1965 info. The 61-64 T-Bird only part (C5AZ-3647-A R/B C5AZ-X) evidently picked up the 1965 level part number when the 60-64 MPC received it's final revision in 1969. The only size related number I see for the "X" ball is .25" diameter.

The inlet (pressure) and outlet (return) brass seats have Ford hardware numbers and not the typical Ford  formatted part number.

The pressure seat is 374309-S It is 7/16" dia,    top orifice is 9/32" with a 5/16" seat

The return seat is 374480-S     It is 3/8 dia,        top orifice is 9/32" with a 3/8" seat

If you have a favorite parts supplier you may want to check with them. I have have used Green Sales (1-800-543-4959) a few times and they show stock on the 374480-S. The 374309-S I have seen on E-Bay and is still available from Ford. So you may want to check with your local Ford dealer to see what he has. I believe Canadian dealers may be on a different parts locator system from the US dealers so I cannot verify what they may have.

Let me know if you have any problems with the numbers.    :)
Steve, thanks so much for digging this up for me. I likely will buy from McDonalds as they still have both E and F balls in stock. I will email Green Sales as well, but I don't think they had the sizes ball sets I want. Just to be sure, the seats you mention do fit the Saginaw 800 PS box, SPA-T in my case? I do not know exactly when that version came out

Stay tuned!!

Geoff.

 

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Love all the talk of old airplanes. The "Mid-Atlantic Air Museum" is only minutes from my house, and they have dozens of aircraft on display from the 20's through the 80's, including a B-25 and a P-61. I thought they also had a B-17 but that might fly in for special occasions. This is just outside the grounds of the Reading (PA) airport, which used to host one of the largest air shows in the US. Now they have a large WWII weekend in June which attracts many thousands of visitors. On that weekend I will have aircraft such as B-17, B-25, P-51, and even a B-29 (Fifi) flying directly over my house at low altitudes. There's no mistaking the sound of those old radial engines.

 

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