Trying hard to not make this political

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detritusmaximus

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It is difficult to avoid politics. Politics influences and controls most aspects our lives and one would be delusional to assume it can be ignored. On the subject of Evs and renewables my analysis is that there is no free lunch when it comes to energy. There are always negative consequences no matter what source is powering our lives.

Ron
That's one of the theoretical bonuses of an EV culture. All energy production produces some form of pollution, but the trick is to minimize it. As far as I recall, one of the downsides to an ICE efficiency-wise is having to operate well at many rpm levels. This compromises its maximum efficiency and emission control. If all that power generation is shifted to a single powerplant, it is easier to achieve the most efficiency and controlling emissions becomes easier. In a simplistic sense, it is similar to Henry Fords assembly line and economies of scale. Perfect each step or process and eliminate waste instead of having everyone doing everything and constantly speeding up, slowing down or changing tasks.

I'm probably a bit greener than most on this forum, but I have no illusions about climate change. If mankind has contributed to it, it will take a century to see a reversal of our effects. That's if we pull out all the stops and change how we think. And also if the constant economic/population growth do not eat up everybody of progress we can make.

Regardless of anyone's belief on natural or man-made climate change, thongs are changing. Sea levels are rising. Miami, New York and Indonesia are starting to see significant effects. If we do not prepare for that, what is going to happen in 50 years when large populations have to move? Where is that money going to come from? The costs from permanent flooding and subsidence are going to be astronomical. I see a new construction boom for those that can afford to get out and a social and environmental disaster as the municipalitiesy/buildings affected are abandoned (you don't really think the owners of afflicted high rises in Miami are going to voluntarily pay to tear them down?)
There is so much more to this than a simple thing like EVs.
I, for one, am not optimistic.

I'd really rather talk about DEVO...
 

midlife

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. Nuclear has none of the disadvantages of renewables, it is 100% clean, and there is no waste that goes into the environment as either pollution or material waste, as with all the renewables. Plus nuclear power ends up being much cheaper to the end consumer than renewables. According to scientist there is enough uranium in the world to power all the nuclear plants currently in use for the next 60,000 years, it's just that a lot of it is in the sea, and is not currently economical to get it. T
You have to be kidding about no nuclear waste. That's one of the biggest problems: where to store the used nuclear rods from power plants, as they are highly radioactive for thousands of years, no permanent place to store them; currently they are stored on-site in pools of water that have to be kept cool and completely cover the spent rods.
 

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Some more food for thought about electric vehicles. I've heard that if we all were driving battery powered cars, the re-charging of the batterys by us all would require more energy use by power plants, which release polutants, The powers that be, would charge us ( two puns in a row there ) a premium for extra re-charge electricity useage. Sounds conceiveable for State and Federal Government agencies to do that. THEN, there's the issue of what do you do with those special batteries when they go bad? I was told in that same conversation that the used batteries were currently being dumped into the ocean off Mexico. If any of what I heard is true, electric cars are just as bad for the ecology as any fossil fuel car in the end. Personally, I think the majority of electric car users might simply just want to appear so "woke" that if any of the above is true, they probablt wouldn't care.
 
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You have to be kidding about no nuclear waste. That's one of the biggest problems: where to store the used nuclear rods from power plants, as they are highly radioactive for thousands of years, no permanent place to store them; currently they are stored on-site in pools of water that have to be kept cool and completely cover the spent rods.
And where do the batteries go to ride off into the sunset?
"Not to be political here" but I crush rock to supply aggregates for concrete and asphalt (real infrastructure) 300' below the surface and its only possible with diesel power, manpower, explosives, and of course electricity to run air fans and crushers/conveyors. That electicity (coal fed - mined) is carried underground by wire (also mined) which is coated in protected coating/covering (also mined) to supply the power transmission oil lubed drives (also mined) out of the mine.
The employees mainly wear jeans and cotton shirts (grown), maybe a windbreaker "northface" type jacket (mined) steel toed (mined) leather boots (grown) and eat lunch (grown) to get the work done to keep building up this nation (obviously its the same across the world).
So we have a few choices.. IMO. Stop it all now for the sake of being afraid of science not proven and pull the pin? Continue to realize fossil fuels are detrimental to our survival as a world society and angle a successful strategy to have all others consume FF in a cleaner manner? Solar isn't getting us the power to manufacture, nor are batteries (that are mined) and powered mainly by coal and natgas (mined)
My rechargeable Milwaukee tools are awesome but I would never expect to stress them out trying to replace my Toro lawnmower and his weedeater and blower pals that loves 91 octane to get the job done efficiently. So in closing...

If it can't be grown, it must be mined.
 
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You have to be kidding about no nuclear waste. That's one of the biggest problems: where to store the used nuclear rods from power plants, as they are highly radioactive for thousands of years, no permanent place to store them; currently they are stored on-site in pools of water that have to be kept cool and completely cover the spent rods.
I did not say that there was no waste, just no waste that goes out to the environment. Nuclear waste is stored in a concrete-and-steel container called a dry cask. None of it ever reaches the environment. Here is a photo of the nuclear waste facility of the Swiss that has all the nuclear waste they have created in 45 years.
 

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Ron Tanzi

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That's one of the theoretical bonuses of an EV culture. All energy production produces some form of pollution, but the trick is to minimize it. As far as I recall, one of the downsides to an ICE efficiency-wise is having to operate well at many rpm levels. This compromises its maximum efficiency and emission control. If all that power generation is shifted to a single powerplant, it is easier to achieve the most efficiency and controlling emissions becomes easier. In a simplistic sense, it is similar to Henry Fords assembly line and economies of scale. Perfect each step or process and eliminate waste instead of having everyone doing everything and constantly speeding up, slowing down or changing tasks.

I'm probably a bit greener than most on this forum, but I have no illusions about climate change. If mankind has contributed to it, it will take a century to see a reversal of our effects. That's if we pull out all the stops and change how we think. And also if the constant economic/population growth do not eat up everybody of progress we can make.

Regardless of anyone's belief on natural or man-made climate change, thongs are changing. Sea levels are rising. Miami, New York and Indonesia are starting to see significant effects. If we do not prepare for that, what is going to happen in 50 years when large populations have to move? Where is that money going to come from? The costs from permanent flooding and subsidence are going to be astronomical. I see a new construction boom for those that can afford to get out and a social and environmental disaster as the municipalitiesy/buildings affected are abandoned (you don't really think the owners of afflicted high rises in Miami are going to voluntarily pay to tear them down?)
There is so much more to this than a simple thing like EVs.
I, for one, am not optimistic.

I'd really rather talk about DEVO...
I am like you in that I am very environmentally conscious. I love and respect nature and want to see it preserved. I compost and recycle because it makes good sense. I have at least 80 trees on my property that I am sure if someone else owned my modest house they would cut most of them down. The bigger threats to the World at large is overdevelopment and the fact that we live in a disposable society. The "green energy" industry's motives are not as pure and virtuous as we are led to believe. There are a plethora of politicians that will become even more wealthy due to the green energy policies they themselves are legislating. The system is gamed by the connected. Re: sea level rise: we all know a certain past president that bought a $15 million waterfront property on an island. One other thing to remember is that Boston, NY city's and Miami's coasts were reclaimed from the sea by massive filling operations that began decades ago. I am also like you in that I am not optimistic.
Ron
 
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detritusmaximus

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As Neutra/DEVO Inc. says, "...a major attack of corkscrews in the brain..."
 

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Politics is hard to avoid, I agree. The trick is to respectfully listen to the other person's opinion and don't demonize them because they have a different solution than yours. It all goes down hill when EITHER side claims they have the moral high ground and the person who doesn't agree with them is evil and morally corrupt. And I hate the use of name calling that is very prevalent on the internet these days.
My Friend wants to know. Can we call them a name if they still support a past president that might be known for childish name calling as I would think name calling is okay with them especially if they name call first? What if the name is an accurate honest description because we care about their self awareness that they might be lacking so they can grow to be a better person? If it is a negative name who's fault is that? Doesn't two negatives cancel out each other and make a positive? Sorry for all my friends questions
 
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My Friend wants to know. Can we call them a name if they still support a past president that might be known for childish name calling as I would think name calling is okay with them especially if they name call first? What if the name is an accurate honest description because we care about their self awareness that they might be lacking so they can grow to be a better person? If it is a negative name who's fault is that? Doesn't two negatives cancel out each other and make a positive? Sorry for all my friends questions
Your friend is a strawman?
 

detritusmaximus

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So do I !
Honestly, I'm a little surprised at the amount of DEVOtion on the forum!

Back when I had my first two Mustangs, I always had a couple DEVO tapes in the car. When I listen to them now I can't help but think of those two cars.
I also had the Surf Punks, as well.
The cars made not have been electric, but riding in them with the stereo cranked was!
 
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My Friend wants to know. Can we call them a name if they still support a past president that might be known for childish name calling as I would think name calling is okay with them especially if they name call first? What if the name is an accurate honest description because we care about their self awareness that they might be lacking so they can grow to be a better person? If it is a negative name who's fault is that? Doesn't two negatives cancel out each other and make a positive? Sorry for all my friends questions
Hi Greg, it's me, the guy with the ivy glow green metallic '72 ragtop that you like, "but like less" because you assume you know my politics and seemed to be offended over that because I mentioned a mainstream "name" of a president not being of orange in color to many eyes wearing one way lenses.
I'm not offended by your reply of me "looking dumb", and I want to offer you up a suggestion on a good read IMO, of a newly released book called "Un Fu*k America" by Mike Ritland that is his honest take on our current state as a nation from a former military guy (like myself, but not a seal like him) that I align with and respect. *Disclaimer - I also support his dog training biz and his not for profit Warrior Dog Foundation.
I am a live and let live and keep the govt from telling me and my loved ones how to live kind of guy.

I also love the 🇺🇸 first and foremost, the rest of our dear allies and civilized countries next.., but if we refuse to listen and commit to understand each other respectfully while agreeing to have fruitful debate and disagreements, we very well may be F'd as Ritland fleshes out.

Greg, I do have to add that the reason I spent my time to reply is that I read your post, which is commonly called (in today's mainstream) a word salad to me. I'm not saying its immature or "so high school", it just didn't come across as anything I can understand or relate to. Maybe others on here will help clarify because remember, this is a "hard to not be political" thread.
Peace out,
 
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I am like you in that I am very environmentally conscious. I love and respect nature and want to see it preserved. I compost and recycle because it makes good sense. I have at least 80 trees on my property that I am sure if someone else owned my modest house they would cut most of them down. The bigger threats to the World at large is overdevelopment and the fact that we live in a disposable society. The "green energy" industry's motives are not as pure and virtuous as we are led to believe. There are a plethora of politicians that will become even more wealthy due to the green energy policies they themselves are legislating. The system is gamed by the connected. Re: sea level rise: we all know a certain past president that bought a $15 million waterfront property on an island. One other thing to remember is that Boston, NY city's and Miami's coasts were reclaimed from the sea by massive filling operations that began decades ago. I am also like you in that I am not optimistic.
Ron
I am probably the opposite of you guys, I am not very environmentally conscious, mostly because there is so much manipulation and lying about all of it, that it is almost impossible to ascertain the truth. There seem to be hidden agendas behind al these environmental movements. I agree that none of these people behind these movements are even remotely pure or virtuous. They all grab the moral high ground, and refuse to listen to anyone else, and will try to demonize and cancel anyone that does not agree. Only when the failure of what they advocate can no longer be ignored, do some of them actually stop and listen to what they were told sometimes decades before, and usually the answer to the failure is "we just need more money thrown at the problem". When I was kid it was all about global cooling, we were going to die in a frozen wonderland, when that did not happen, it became global warming, where we were all going to be swallowed by the seas, and since that hasn't happened we are now in the "climate change" phase, where anything that happens to the environment, that is even a little out of normal is all caused by man made "climate change". If it rains to much this month its "climate change", if next moth it does not rain it's "climate change", if we have a bunch of hurricanes this year it's "climate change", if we have none it's "climate change". It has truly become a joke. now, I am all for cleaner air and cleaner water, but I am not for lowering our standard of living, or paying 2-3 times more for electricity, or killing the economy to attempt to achieve some utopian dream of zero emissions.
 

Ron Tanzi

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I am probably the opposite of you guys, I am not very environmentally conscious, mostly because there is so much manipulation and lying about all of it, that it is almost impossible to ascertain the truth. There seem to be hidden agendas behind al these environmental movements. I agree that none of these people behind these movements are even remotely pure or virtuous. They all grab the moral high ground, and refuse to listen to anyone else, and will try to demonize and cancel anyone that does not agree. Only when the failure of what they advocate can no longer be ignored, do some of them actually stop and listen to what they were told sometimes decades before, and usually the answer to the failure is "we just need more money thrown at the problem". When I was kid it was all about global cooling, we were going to die in a frozen wonderland, when that did not happen, it became global warming, where we were all going to be swallowed by the seas, and since that hasn't happened we are now in the "climate change" phase, where anything that happens to the environment, that is even a little out of normal is all caused by man made "climate change". If it rains to much this month its "climate change", if next moth it does not rain it's "climate change", if we have a bunch of hurricanes this year it's "climate change", if we have none it's "climate change". It has truly become a joke. now, I am all for cleaner air and cleaner water, but I am not for lowering our standard of living, or paying 2-3 times more for electricity, or killing the economy to attempt to achieve some utopian dream of zero emissions.
You make a bunch of good points. When I was a kid it was the ozone layer. We have been in a perpetual cycle of "crisis" of one kind or another my entire life. It is all about control.

Ron
 
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I am probably the opposite of you guys, I am not very environmentally conscious, mostly because there is so much manipulation and lying about all of it, that it is almost impossible to ascertain the truth. There seem to be hidden agendas behind al these environmental movements. I agree that none of these people behind these movements are even remotely pure or virtuous. They all grab the moral high ground, and refuse to listen to anyone else, and will try to demonize and cancel anyone that does not agree. Only when the failure of what they advocate can no longer be ignored, do some of them actually stop and listen to what they were told sometimes decades before, and usually the answer to the failure is "we just need more money thrown at the problem". When I was kid it was all about global cooling, we were going to die in a frozen wonderland, when that did not happen, it became global warming, where we were all going to be swallowed by the seas, and since that hasn't happened we are now in the "climate change" phase, where anything that happens to the environment, that is even a little out of normal is all caused by man made "climate change". If it rains to much this month its "climate change", if next moth it does not rain it's "climate change", if we have a bunch of hurricanes this year it's "climate change", if we have none it's "climate change". It has truly become a joke. now, I am all for cleaner air and cleaner water, but I am not for lowering our standard of living, or paying 2-3 times more for electricity, or killing the economy to attempt to achieve some utopian dream of zero emissions.
Too me, that's a "bingo"
 
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You make a bunch of good points. When I was a kid it was the ozone layer. We have been in a perpetual cycle of "crisis" of one kind or another my entire life. It is all about control.

Ron
I forgot about that one, the ozone layer was going to go away and everyone was going to get fried by UV rays :cool:
 

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Hi Greg, it's me, the guy with the ivy glow green metallic '72 ragtop that you like, "but like less" because you assume you know my politics and seemed to be offended over that because I mentioned a mainstream "name" of a president not being of orange in color to many eyes wearing one way lenses.
I'm not offended by your reply of me "looking dumb", and I want to offer you up a suggestion on a good read IMO, of a newly released book called "Un Fu*k America" by Mike Ritland that is his honest take on our current state as a nation from a former military guy (like myself, but not a seal like him) that I align with and respect. *Disclaimer - I also support his dog training biz and his not for profit Warrior Dog Foundation.
I am a live and let live and keep the govt from telling me and my loved ones how to live kind of guy.

I also love the 🇺🇸 first and foremost, the rest of our dear allies and civilized countries next.., but if we refuse to listen and commit to understand each other respectfully while agreeing to have fruitful debate and disagreements, we very well may be F'd as Ritland fleshes out.

Greg, I do have to add that the reason I spent my time to reply is that I read your post, which is commonly called (in today's mainstream) a word salad to me. I'm not saying its immature or "so high school", it just didn't come across as anything I can understand or relate to. Maybe others on here will help clarify because remember, this is a "hard to not be political" thread.
Peace out,
Sorry to you and anyone else. Anyone to me who uses the "Brandon" term to me is part of the problem more than the solution when using that slur, maybe not a problem in other areas and times and I see no resemblance to maturity or intelligence while using that term. Also using that term with Biden's economy which isn't completely his fault and is an issue in other countries makes it a double trigger for me. Those two things together appear completely biased to me. Maybe I am biased also. We all see and are blind in areas. Sometimes I make a mistake and don't rise above. I don't consider using that term a live and let live person would use after the last president's blatant authoritarian ways not to mention his military evading. They should be appreciative even with Biden's many imperfections. I am a live and let live person and have been friends and lived, hired, rented to most races, sexualities, gender variations ,ages, religious and political views. Not just a saying with me I have lived it. We all fight for our country in different ways. No president will be perfect, but we simply didn't have a viable Republican option. I am not Democrat nor a Republican as both sides have too many disfunctions etc. I can identify with. I am conservative in some areas and liberal in others. No box fits for me. Vets have fought for our Democracy and we were close to losing it. Something less likely to happen with Biden(Started typing Brandon ,oops) no matter if we don't agree with his efforts. Can we please use a more constructive term than one that is supposed to mean "F you Biden". I will never see intelligence in that term no matter your views on him.
 

detritusmaximus

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I feel more sorry for the racecar guy. He is the one really suffering.
If only he could race an electric car!
 
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Sorry to you and anyone else. Anyone to me who uses the "Brandon" term to me is part of the problem more than the solution when using that slur, maybe not a problem in other areas and times and I see no resemblance to maturity or intelligence while using that term. Also using that term with Biden's economy which isn't completely his fault and is an issue in other countries makes it a double trigger for me. Those two things together appear completely biased to me. Maybe I am biased also. We all see and are blind in areas. Sometimes I make a mistake and don't rise above. I don't consider using that term a live and let live person would use after the last president's blatant authoritarian ways not to mention his military evading. They should be appreciative even with Biden's many imperfections. I am a live and let live person and have been friends and lived, hired, rented to most races, sexualities, gender variations ,ages, religious and political views. Not just a saying with me I have lived it. We all fight for our country in different ways. No president will be perfect, but we simply didn't have a viable Republican option. I am not Democrat nor a Republican as both sides have too many disfunctions etc. I can identify with. I am conservative in some areas and liberal in others. No box fits for me. Vets have fought for our Democracy and we were close to losing it. Something less likely to happen with Biden(Started typing Brandon ,oops) no matter if we don't agree with his efforts. Can we please use a more constructive term than one that is supposed to mean "F you Biden". I will never see intelligence in that term no matter your views on him.
I hear you, but you did type out Brandon! 😂 It's all good so enjoy the weekend and keep it between the ditch's! 🤙🏻
 
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