Turbo vs supercharger

[jaybale23]

I was thinking of getting some additional HP out of my 351C. I was contemplating either turbochargers or a supercharger. Wanted to get others recommendations or suggestions. Has anyone done this and what kind of power increase did you get. Thanks.

 

[cruiser]

The stock 351C comes with 8:1 compression. I increased mine to 10.5:1 and it must have added 120 h.p. All I can say is that I really felt it. Also, the carburetor has small jetting. These cars were built during the oil embargo so the word was out and the manufacturers had to cut horsepower and improve gas mileage. These 2 things were how they did it. I'm trying out another carb right now and it added a lot of power too. Original carb was 750 cfm Motorcraft. New carb is 670 cfm ProForm. The jetting is the difference here. Adding a supercharger or turbo will add a lot more power, but will cost a lot more too.

 

[jaybale23]

The stock 351C comes with 8:1 compression. I increased mine to 10.5:1 and it must have added 120 h.p. All I can say is that I really felt it. Also, the carburetor has small jetting. These cars were built during the oil embargo so the word was out and the manufacturers had to cut horsepower and improve gas mileage. These 2 things were how they did it. I'm trying out another carb right now and it added a lot of power too. Original carb was 750 cfm Motorcraft. New carb is 670 cfm ProForm. The jetting is the difference here. Adding a supercharger or turbo will add a lot more power, but will cost a lot more too.

Thank you for the info.

 

[will e]

If you decide to go either route you'll need to look at other changes to your engine. For example, you'll want a different cam.
Also, you'll need to either add a vacuum pump for the power brakes or convert to hydroboost.

Depending on the super charger you might be looking at hood clearance issues too.

I'd go super charger over turbo. While turbo technology has improved greatly over the years I think the faster boost of the super charger combined with an overall easier install would make me lean towards super charging.

 

[jaybale23]

If you decide to go either route you'll need to look at other changes to your engine. For example, you'll want a different cam.
Also, you'll need to either add a vacuum pump for the power brakes or convert to hydroboost.

Depending on the super charger you might be looking at hood clearance issues too.

I'd go super charger over turbo. While turbo technology has improved greatly over the years I think the faster boost of the super charger combined with an overall easier install would make me lean towards super charging.

Awesome. Thanks for the info.

 

[rvrtrash]

I don't have first hand knowledge of this, haven't done it myself, but my son has been in to the turbo scene for a couple of decades now. Either way, you'll need forged pistons, and a better fuel system. From sitting around talking gear head with him, a twin turbo setup would be the way to go. Smaller turbos spool up faster, which reduces the lag time, are easier to fit in spaces and generate less heat. With supercharges you are "robbing" power from the engine to drive them, while turbos use exhaust gases, "free power" in his words. With turbos you can change the boost by adjusting the waste gate, where supercharges require gear changes and are more limited. He used to race a turbo car running 22 lbs of boost and is building a Honda B18 engine now that is supposed to put out 750 horsepower.

 

[midlife]

Mary Ann, definitely.

 

[jaybale23]

I don't have first hand knowledge of this, haven't done it myself, but my son has been in to the turbo scene for a couple of decades now. Either way, you'll need forged pistons, and a better fuel system. From sitting around talking gear head with him, a twin turbo setup would be the way to go. Smaller turbos spool up faster, which reduces the lag time, are easier to fit in spaces and generate less heat. With supercharges you are "robbing" power from the engine to drive them, while turbos use exhaust gases, "free power" in his words. With turbos you can change the boost by adjusting the waste gate, where supercharges require gear changes and are more limited. He used to race a turbo car running 22 lbs of boost and is building a Honda B18 engine now that is supposed to put out 750 horsepower.

Sweet. Thanks for the info.

 

[Stanglover]

WHY?
You could get all the power you want just from building up a good 351C engine.
My stockish 351C 4V has enough power to kill me pretty quick if I don't handle it right.
Unless you're going to race it, have a death wish, or just have too much money to spend, again why?
Then again as we always say, your car, your way.

 

[jaybale23]

WHY?
You could get all the power you want just from building up a good 351C engine.
My stockish 351C 4V has enough power to kill me pretty quick if I don't handle it right.
Unless you're going to race it, have a death wish, or just have too much money to spend, again why?
Then again as we always say, your car, your way.

I get what your saying and respect your opinion. Mine currently has about 350 hp. Was hoping to get up to 500 hp. Just have the need for speed. Lol.

 

[tony-muscle]

Superchargers are cool but can bring a whole set of issues. There are a few applications I have seen where they have used some of those engine side belt driven superchargers (Procharger) in Cleveland applications. In general I think turbochargers can be more efficient and easier to control boost, but they are more tricky to drive due to the lag. However, turbochargers typically require a custom made exhaust and that can get complicated in a hurry. Two turbochargers are a good option to minimize lag, but complicates the space under the hood. Adding a supercharger [edited] should be easier.

 

[sicndhed]

500 flywheel or rear wheel? 500 flywheel is pretty easy naturally aspirated but without extra displacement the low RPM performance can be weak. If you want power everywhere a positive displacement blower is hard to beat. Not the most efficient way to make power but the fun factor is very high. The 6-71 on my wife's car kind of makes it feel like an electric car. Power right off idle. Not a Ford but boost doesn't care who made the engine.

 

[mrgmhale]

I am a fan of superchargers and turbochargers, where the engine involved is designed for such equipment. But, I am personally very wary of adding either boosting solution to a totally stock engine for two reasons (or NOx for that matter). First, as mentioned by other fellow enthusiasts above, in order to really derive significant benefit you will need to do other work to the engine (cam, carburetor, exhaust, lubrication, cooling, etc.). Second, not all engines will fare well in terms of durability, especially in the longer run, with super/turbo equipment added. Before boosting any of my engines I would definitely feel compelled to take the time, and incur the expense, in getting an appropriate cam and lifter kit (preferably a hydraulic roller cam/lifter kit to take advantage of some of the more exotic grinds only roller cams can offer, and to eliminate the need to use engine oil with Zinc in it to prevent excessing cam and liter wear as with flat tappet systems,) forged aluminum alloy pistons (no need to go nuts with compression, keep in mind the low octane with no-ethanol fuels we have now), a nice set of headers with long tube collectors, a decent carburetor and intake manifold (well designed intake manifolds are still needed despite the boosting shoving the air/fuel into the intake runners), strong and light forged connecting rods, and I would even look at getting a forged crankshaft. That is just a start. Other goodies include doing a bronze-wall valve guide upgrade, hardened valve seats, using Perfect Circle real valve guide seals vs the umbrella style oil splash diverters that come oem, double roller timing chain and gears (without plastic/nylon gear coating). There is little doubt you will need to re-curve your distributor ignition timing (mechanical and vacuum), especially when dealing with a heavily boosted intake jamming so much additional compressed air/fuel into the combustion chambers. In fact, you may want to move to an aftermarket EFI system (so much for carburetors) that uses its own sensors to provide timing advance signals as opposed to relying on the stock vacuum and mechanical advance systems. With all that, before you know it you are about 1/4 or more into a new car! Or more... For me, no doubt it would be more, lots more...

As fun as all that sounds, personally if I wanted a faster car I would likely opt to just go out and buy a faster car. I was very tempted to go "whole hog" with our 73 Mach 1 for no other reason than I just wanted to. After penciling out the many factors involved, which included more than just the engine considerations, I opted to get a 2020 Shelby GT500 (and kept the 73 Mach 1). I did some work on the 73 Mach 1, but nothing to do with boosting engine performance. I mostly did dual electric cooling fans, and swapped in an AOD to replace its original auto tranny. The prior owner had already popped in a 3.5:1 TractionLok rear axle gear set, and had the engine built for modest street/strip performance - nothing wild, 360HP at the crankshaft. Enough to have fun. But, when I start to feel the need for some "real performance" I strap myself into the 2020 GT500. It would have been more costly to get the 73 to perform like that, even if all I wanted to work on was the engine for the power the 2020 provides. So, as I see it I wound up with the best of both worlds. And, had the 2020 GT500 not been available, nearly any high performance variant from the factory would have done fine (Mach 1, GT350, Bullitt, etc.). Even the EcoBoost v-6 provides some serious performance for relatively little money... ().

I sure do enjoy our old school 69-73 ponies. But, that 2020 GT500 is something altogether different re: not just the raw power, but the way it handles. I have never been in a First Generation Mustang or Shelby that was anywhere close to such a good handling machine. I am certain any late model or new Mustang will be able to provide superior handling over the First Generation pony cars. If for no other reason than because the blaring, almost embarrassing, fact is those early Mustangs were essentially Ford economy model Falcons with some really cool alternate sheet metal on them, plus some suspension enhancements to help overcome the initial suspension limitations. It was not quite like putting lipstick on a pig, but it is still hard for me to ignore the base roots from whence the first years of Mustang came from. The new(er) Mustangs and Shelbys are in a different class, leaving more headroom for some serious performance advantages in all areas.

There are several nice videos covering the EcoBoost Mustangs. This is one I feel is a decent one, despite some of the less than enthusiastic descriptions the narrator/presenter shares. I feel he is being more critical than necessary, but overall he provides a nice explanation of the vehicle.

 

[giantpune]

For 500HP, you can get there with just motor. A 351 stroked to 427 will do 600+ HP. As was already said, you probably dont want to be adding boost to a stock engine. It will be fun, but tear itself up. So you're going to be looking at getting inside the motor anyways replacing parts, may as well make it a stroker while you're swapping parts. You get the horsepower without having to deal with some of the downsides of boost.

Back to the original question, supercharger vs turbo, on a slower spinning V8, I like the supercharger. Even if you just do a basic procharger or vortec. I like the response and the less custom exhaust and less heat under the hood as compared to a turbo.

If you just plain dont care about the engine, you can do like the honda boys. Slap an ebay turbo on your stock motor and send it. Rip it around till it blows up.

 

[Stanglover]

I get what your saying and respect your opinion. Mine currently has about 350 hp. Was hoping to get up to 500 hp. Just have the need for speed. Lol.

No problem.
I'm far from being an engine guru, but I would think 500 hp is doable without turbos or superchargers.
If you do like superchargers, take a look at this 4.6 Lt with supercharger. It was built by and belongs to a friend of mine who was a famous drag racer back in the day. Now, that's a neat looking motor!

 

[sicndhed]

I am a fan of superchargers and turbochargers, where the engine involved is designed for such equipment. But, I am personally very wary of adding either boosting solution to a totally stock engine for two reasons (or NOx for that matter). First, as mentioned by other fellow enthusiasts above, in order to really derive significant benefit you will need to do other work to the engine (cam, carburetor, exhaust, lubrication, cooling, etc.). Second, not all engines will fare well in terms of durability, especially in the longer run, with super/turbo equipment added. Before boosting any of my engines I would definitely feel compelled to take the time, and incur the expense, in getting an appropriate cam and lifter kit (preferably a hydraulic roller cam/lifter kit to take advantage of some of the more exotic grinds only roller cams can offer, and to eliminate the need to use engine oil with Zinc in it to prevent excessing cam and liter wear as with flat tappet systems,) forged aluminum alloy pistons (no need to go nuts with compression, keep in mind the low octane with no-ethanol fuels we have now), a nice set of headers with long tube collectors, a decent carburetor and intake manifold (well designed intake manifolds are still needed despite the boosting shoving the air/fuel into the intake runners), strong and light forged connecting rods, and I would even look at getting a forged crankshaft. That is just a start. Other goodies include doing a bronze-wall valve guide upgrade, hardened valve seats, using Perfect Circle real valve guide seals vs the umbrella style oil splash diverters that come oem, double roller timing chain and gears (without plastic/nylon gear coating). There is little doubt you will need to re-curve your distributor ignition timing (mechanical and vacuum), especially when dealing with a heavily boosted intake jamming so much additional compressed air/fuel into the combustion chambers. In fact, you may want to move to an aftermarket EFI system (so much for carburetors) that uses its own sensors to provide timing advance signals as opposed to relying on the stock vacuum and mechanical advance systems. With all that, before you know it you are about 1/4 or more into a new car! Or more... For me, no doubt it would be more, lots more...

As fun as all that sounds, personally if I wanted a faster car I would likely opt to just go out and buy a faster car. I was very tempted to go "whole hog" with our 73 Mach 1 for no other reason than I just wanted to. After penciling out the many factors involved, which included more than just the engine considerations, I opted to get a 2020 Shelby GT500 (and kept the 73 Mach 1). I did some work on the 73 Mach 1, but nothing to do with boosting engine performance. I mostly did dual electric cooling fans, and swapped in an AOD to replace its original auto tranny. The prior owner had already popped in a 3.5:1 TractionLok rear axle gear set, and had the engine built for modest street/strip performance - nothing wild, 360HP at the crankshaft. Enough to have fun. But, when I start to feel the need for some "real performance" I strap myself into the 2020 GT500. It would have been more costly to get the 73 to perform like that, even if all I wanted to work on was the engine for the power the 2020 provides. So, as I see it I wound up with the best of both worlds. And, had the 2020 GT500 not been available, nearly any high performance variant from the factory would have done fine (Mach 1, GT350, Bullitt, etc.). Even the EcoBoost v-6 provides some serious performance for relatively little money... ().

I sure do enjoy our old school 69-73 ponies. But, that 2020 GT500 is something altogether different re: not just the raw power, but the way it handles. I have never been in a First Generation Mustang or Shelby that was anywhere close to such a good handling machine. I am certain any late model or new Mustang will be able to provide superior handling over the First Generation pony cars. If for no other reason than because the blaring, almost embarrassing, fact is those early Mustangs were essentially Ford economy model Falcons with some really cool alternate sheet metal on them, plus some suspension enhancements to help overcome the initial suspension limitations. It was not quite like putting lipstick on a pig, but it is still hard for me to ignore the base roots from whence the first years of Mustang came from. The new(er) Mustangs and Shelbys are in a different class, leaving more headroom for some serious performance advantages in all areas.

There are several nice videos covering the EcoBoost Mustangs. This is one I feel is a decent one, despite some of the less than enthusiastic descriptions the narrator/presenter shares. I feel he is being more critical than necessary, but overall he provides a nice explanation of the vehicle.

In quest for power it is hard to argue with the philosphy of "buy modern". My wife has two supercharged cars. I think her Z07 would beat her Camaro in the quarter (if i ever get around to converting the Camaro to a four link it might win). But as you say the modern car does everything well. And has cold A/C. I believe the "cool" factor goes to an old car with big power though.

 

[jaybale23]

For 500HP, you can get there with just motor. A 351 stroked to 427 will do 600+ HP. As was already said, you probably dont want to be adding boost to a stock engine. It will be fun, but tear itself up. So you're going to be looking at getting inside the motor anyways replacing parts, may as well make it a stroker while you're swapping parts. You get the horsepower without having to deal with some of the downsides of boost.

Back to the original question, supercharger vs turbo, on a slower spinning V8, I like the supercharger. Even if you just do a basic procharger or vortec. I like the response and the less custom exhaust and less heat under the hood as compared to a turbo.

If you just plain dont care about the engine, you can do like the honda boys. Slap an ebay turbo on your stock motor and send it. Rip it around till it blows up.

I had not thought of that. Thank you.

 

[c9zx]

Ah heck, while you are there you might as well do both. Chuck https://driving.ca/column/how-it-works/how-it-works-twin-charged-engines

 

[71ProjectJunk]

I have worked with centrifugal, screw, and roots blowers, and at one time I was a Master WD for Turbonetics, although that was decades ago, and most of my experience is from the 80's to the early 2000's. Anyways, this is a difficult question to answer. First is that you can put a turbo or supercharger on a stock engine, but you have to limit boost to about 6 psi, and you usually have to upgrade the fuel system. There are tons of supercharger and turbocharger kits that have been sold for decades for use with internally stock engines with good success, AS LONG as you have low boost. Turbochargers are more efficient, no questions about that, but on a Cleveland you would probably have to fabricate everything. Superchargers are a much easier install, if you just wanted to put a 6-71 or an 8-71 on it, there are available kits, but you would have a massive hole in your hood and it would not be cheap. The small roots type superchargers like the Weiand ones would be perfect for a mostly stock engine, but I don't believe that there are readily available kits for the 351 Cleveland, so you would be fabricating your own, and you would need a hood scoop. On your average stock V8, you put 6 psi of boost and you will see about 100hp. If you were really good at fabricating a turbocharger kit would probably be the cheapest to build, but it takes a lot of knowledge and time. There are some centrifugal kits available, but they have big superchargers (ie: not really for a stock engine) and are not cheap:
https://thesuperchargerstore.com/ag-1781692.1781865-ford-351c-400m.html
I love turbos and superchargers. In the late 80's early 90's Paxton used to make a 5.0 Mustang kit for $1500. that was the bang for the buck then. For $1500 you installed this kit that gave you about 75-90hp, so your 5.0 Mustang went to 300+ hp in one weekend. It ran just like it did before the install, drivability was just like stock, as it was a stock engine with a supercharger on it. It was the biggest win/win ever. Only bad thing is that the supercharger was very small, so if you really wanted to push it, you would need a bigger supercharger.

 

[NG8264723]

I have built two turbo systems. I built one for a 86 Stang and it made about 500HP. It used 3 T-3's 60/63 from old T-birds. I built another with the same turbos on a 91 K-1500 with a stock goodwrench. It made about the same HP> The 302 was great smooth and fun to drive. Both had A/C PS and PB. The stang never overheated in Brooklyn NY traffic with the A/C on. It had TFTW heads. The stock GM goodwrench engine was lifting the heads and boosted the radiator. Neither had piston issues. Stock cams are fine. They do not have much overlap and run great with turbos. That said you will spend some money. I would recommend trying for a set of CHI head and intake from Australia. They will make 600HP naturally aspirated. They are insane.

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The Innovative 3V 185 is in a class of its own amongst Cleveland Cylinder Heads. Our 3V185cc Cleveland cylinder heads have an intake port that is only marginally bigger than a factory 2V Cleveland Exhaust port!. This makes it the smallest Cleveland cylinder head on the market today. This unique Cleveland cylinder head is best suited to customers with standard stroke engines wanting up to 500hp with solid flat tappet cams, and or customers with stroker engines looking to make low to mid 500’s with flat tappet cams and or mid 500+ with hydraulic and solid rollers.