Turbos ???????

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Joined
Feb 28, 2011
Messages
2,188
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390
Location
Chattanooga, TN
My Car
72 Mach 1 H-Code (Concourse)
67 GT S-Code 4sp
So the next project in the pipeline is my 68 Cyclone build. Plans have morphed from a pro-street blown big block to a street machine twin turbo FE. I have not researched turbo's very much to date. I migrated away from the roots blower after comparing how much parasitic loss happens from running the blower off the crank for what you get in return. Mind you, it is not going to be a 1/4 mile car. Planning on doing a high end show build with great power for cruising. If anyone has experience with turbos, specific manufacturers you have had good technical and product support with or any reference materials I should get I would really appreciate the advice. My engine guy specializes in FE's and can deliver a NA FE @ 410 cubic inches NA at 600 hp. Goal is 800+ and sounds like small diameter turbos would get me there and spool quick.
 
Trying to keep this one under wraps a little bit and it will be a long timeline build. Had an automotive artists do renderings for me with and without the blower sticking out of the hood and the blower just stole from the lines of the car. The car already has a pretty well done t-bird hood scoop installed in the hood. Going to stick with that and I think that will give me enough room for a fabricated intake. Plans are to go with a full perimeter chassis with a 4-bar rear allowing for 15" wide tires and a coil over suspension front and back. Will be EFI on the motor. Full custom interior. Already have the order in for the chassis and will be 26 weeks build time. Here is the current car and hood.
 

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I'm inclined to add a perspective on "power adders". I not only have many, many years of automotive machine shop experience, particularly performance engine building, but, I currently work at The Blower shop, in Boise Idaho. Any engine can be built in various ways, for various purposes, however, lets look at "power adders". Lets keep our conversation to "Cars to be street Driven" first. "Nitrous" is a buzzword that has been bounced around fairly loosely for years, true, it works, but it is the hardest on engine internals of the bunch. It is introduced immeadiately and in doing so, is a severe jolt to those internals. Being that O2 is being introduced, a lot more fuel has to be shot in as well. It may be the quickest thing to add to your car, but that's the best thing I'll say for it. Turbo-charging has been used in everyday American cars to increase power since, I believe, 1962 thereabouts, on the Buick 215. For turbocharging to really show it's stuff, you've got to have the Turbo fairly spooled up. Higher RPM is where the Turbo really pulls, and they are popular in some classes of drag racing. But we have STREET cars. Half of you are looking at ways to add an overdrive to keep the RPMs down, from what I read here on the boards. How much money are you planning to spend, to "have your cake and eat it too" on the street.Now, I haven't even addressed the cost of the all new exhaust plumbing, or any complex designing involved in packaging it under the hood and fender routing. This leads me to the last, and best way to add power to an engine.....Supercharging. First, let's level the playing field......any one of these power adders require the engine to be built for the purpose, so each will require proper pistons, rings, rods, main cap supporting ( at least studding ), so you'd be doing these things no matter what method of adding power you chose, but from here on, supercharging needs the least amount of money spent for the same or greater level of power. Supercharging doesn't require "big cams", and associated components. A blower will fill the chamber 100% and overcomes cylinder head shortcomings.No need to buy high-dollar heads. A Roots supercharger, lets say the 6-71 style, comes on as soon as you depress the gas pedal, no turbo lag, it's right now, and a standard 60 degree rotor 71-series blower is efficient up to around 6000, boost is linear up to that point, where it begins to level off a bit. So a blower's most efficient boost area is EXACTLY where you will ever drive on the street. Torque, as well, is from off idle , on up. We sell "High-Helix", and delta case blower cases for racing that continue to ascend boost as high as you may wind it.........BUT, we are talking street power adders. Blower cams, by comparison are cams with wider lobe centers, and are designed to contain more of the boost in the cylinder, rather than a big overlap cam wasting some of the boost by allowing it to escape out of the exhaust. On the street, those big lift, big event cams are for Naturally Aspirated engines that need all the help they can get. Roots? No wiring up of solenoids, no bottles plumbed from the trunk, no special stainless headers and Rube Goldberg plumbing needed, just everyday headers thank you. There's more. Let's get to the bottom line......NOTHING says raw power, or delivers on it's boost, like a big supercharger sticking through your hood. It's top of the line, in your face, serious hot-rodding, the likes of which the Rice-wheezer cars rarely ever can attain. Remember......RPM stands for "Ruins People's Motors", superchargers make big power without having to wind it out to max kill. Lets be honest, everyone of us digs that car over there with the blower, like a big-titted girl in a tank top, it's what we're drawn to.
 
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Brian, I can't be helpful with detailed turbo information. I own one turbo car, 2020 Edge ST, and one supercharged car, 2007 Mustang GT. Both have plusses and minuses. Either way, it will be a bit complicated and expensive. You will need some kind of engine management system and boost control system to put the power down without blowing the tires away or blowing the engine up. The supercharger is less complicated and less expensive. However, as you said, the losses are significant and the stress on the crank is greater. Either way I'm not sure an OEM 390 block is going live long if that 800 HP is used frequently. You may want to talk with Brent Lykins, Barry Robotnik, and Jay Brown about the build. They are all VERY experienced with building Ford FE engines. And yes, I do love FEs. Whatever you do I hope all goes well if not fast. Chuck
 
I'm inclined to add a perspective on "power adders". I not only have many, many years of automotive machine shop experience, particularly performance engine building, but, I currently work at The Blower shop, in Boise Idaho. Any engine can be built in various ways, for various purposes, however, lets look at "power adders". Lets keep our conversation to "Cars to be street Driven" first. "Nitrous" is a buzzword that has been bounced around fairly loosely for years, true, it works, but it is the hardest on engine internals of the bunch. It is introduced immeadiately and in doing so, is a severe jolt to those internals. Being that O2 is being introduced, a lot more fuel has to be shot in as well. It may be the quickest thing to add to your car, but that's the best thing I'll say for it. Turbo-charging has been used in everyday American cars to increase power since, I believe, 1962 thereabouts, on the Buick 215. For turbocharging to really show it's stuff, you've got to have the Turbo fairly spooled up. Higher RPM is where the Turbo really pulls, and they are popular in some classes of drag racing. But we have STREET cars. Half of you are looking at ways to add an overdrive to keep the RPMs down, from what I read here on the boards. How much money are you planning to spend, to "have your cake and eat it too" on the street.Now, I haven't even addressed the cost of the all new exhaust plumbing, or any complex designing involved in packaging it under the hood and fender routing. This leads me to the last, and best way to add power to an engine.....Supercharging. First, let's level the playing field......any one of these power adders require the engine to be built for the purpose, so each will require proper pistons, rings, rods, main cap supporting ( at least studding ), so you'd be doing these things no matter what method of adding power you chose, but from here on, supercharging needs the least amount of money spent for the same or greater level of power. Supercharging doesn't require "big cams", and associated components. A blower will fill the chamber 100% and overcomes cylinder head shortcomings.No need to buy high-dollar heads. A Roots supercharger, lets say the 6-71 style, comes on as soon as you depress the gas pedal, no turbo lar, it's right now, and a standard 60 degree rotor 71-series blower is efficient up to around 6000, boost is linear up to that point, where it begins to level off a bit. So a blower's most efficient boost area is EXACTLY where you will ever drive on the street. Torque, as well, is from off idle , on up. We sell "High-Helix", and delta case blower cases for racing that continue to ascend boost as high as you may wind it.........BUT, we are talking street power adders. Blower cams, by comparison use cams with wider lobe centers, and are designed to contain more of the boost in the cylinder, rather than a big overlap cam wasing some of the boost by allowing it to escape out of the exhaust. On the street, those big lift, big event cams are for Naturally Aspirated engines that need all the help they can get. No wiring up of solenoids, no bottles plumbed from the trunk, no special stainless headers and Rube Goldberg plumbing needed, just everyday headers thank you. There's more. Let's get to the bottom line......NOTHING says raw power, or delivers on it's boast, like a big supercharger sticking through your hood. It's top of the line, in your face, serious hot-rodding, the likes of which the Rice-wheezer cars rarely ever can attain. Lets be honest, everyone of us digs that car over there with the blower, like a big-titted girl in a tank top, it's what we're drawn to.
After reading Spike's last sentence, I'll never look at superchargers quite the same way!
 
Thank you for the very fact based and knowledgeable responses. One of many aspects that brings me back and keeps me part of this great community. Spike, man if I could have a day in your life gazing out at roots blowers........ I honestly went into this build wanting to satisfy my life long desire for a blower motor. If I was going into this build based purely on emotion and the desire to stand out in a crowd the blower would be the only way to go. I truly appreciate your feedback and the knowledge and facts to back it up. NO denying a roots blower will get you all of the bottom end grunt these big block motors can give and will get you pretty high up in the revs before their efficiency starts to peak. At that point you have already smoked most of any competition on the street. Let add a couple more thoughts on why the needle swung towards going twin turbo. 1) the hoods on a 68 Cyclone are made out of unobtanium. They are not the same as a Torino and very prone to rusting at the hinge point and tin foil thin. If you have stubborn hinges or the smallest amount of rust in the hinge area of the hood you are done. It will bend like a chicken wing. I have one on parts car to show for it. The existing hood on my car has a uniqueness that in my opinion is hard to look past. I have another original hood safely stored in a crate if the blower option did rise to the top, but i get weak in the knees thinking about cutting a hole in it. I know eat my Wheaties. 2) in looking over the artist renderings inclusive of the blower and the lowered stance the blower just stole from the lines of the car. I will attach a picture of a Cyclone Spoiler with a blower that a contact of mine owns. It is a beautiful and menacing street machine. Just right now not the look I am going for. 3) The car will spend the first period of its life on the ISCA show scene just to see if my vision is appealing to others. It will be driven periodically, but it will not be a street racer. 4) With plans for a full chassis the entire engine bay will open up without shock towers and plans are to incorporate a Tesla power brake system to get the booster and master cylinder out of the way as well. I have spoken with Troy Trepanier about this system and he is having luck with it. I agree custom headers will come into play. In summary, if it was my heart it would be an 8:71 sticking out of the hood. Other thoughts and emotions have come more into play.

Chuck, thank you for the feedback. My builder is Blair Patrick just outside of Chattanooga. His is also an FE expert and has taken a stock block FE with stock heads to over 500hp on Engine Masters competition. I have the highest confidence in him building a 600+ hp NA motor with a stout bottom end and rotating assembly to take the boost pressure. Again, is not going to be boosted to the moon (probably less than 12 pounds) to get the numbers I am looking for.
 

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Hey bkdunha!
Your post brought a smile to my face, in that, you wouldn't believe how often people call the shop wanting info to purchase a blower and kit, and add that they really don't want to cut a hole in their hoods. Well, not suprisingly, most of the makes of American cars that people are playing with, have some vendor somewhere that makes a fibreglass replacement hood. I tell 'em put that factory hood in storage and cut the 'glass hood. Some guys want the blower to be "stealth", and be concealed under the hood. Good God man, showing what you got is a main draw to adding the thing! I understand the hesitation though. That Dan Gurney Talledega is too rare to cut the hood , even to me. We have our own manufacture low profile ( similar to the B&M, Weiand, Holley mini blowers ). only better, in that they are have billet cases, hard annodized internally, billet end plates, billet rotors ( not extrusions ) hardened gears and shafts, and cog belt drives available over serpentine belts. The "High-Helix" rotors ( 120 degree twist )can be ordered for our larger low profile, and somewhere on the internet, is a video of a guy who drag races his dragster with one of our low profile 250s, on alky, making like 1500 HP at only 7 lbs boost! That's something, being that that was originally a street , low profile design ,blower.
 
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Spike glad I could bring a smile to you. I thought about getting a fiberglass hood made. I have a buddy in GA who has an inner and outer Cyclone hood already separated for that very purpose. I would need 6 people to pony up with me in the Cyclone community to get a resource I have to build the molds and build a quality product. He already does many Mopar parts in fiberglass and does really good work. Problem is that the hood gets thicker in glass and to allow for hinges to bolt and the latch to work those areas need a fair amount of internal structure with carbon fiber or moly plastics. Sometimes you loose the crispness of body lines in glass. I really appreciate the dialogue with you, great to learn from your knowledge and experience with the roots. Heck, I have another parts car Cyclone that if most of it is left after this build may be used to satisfy my blower itch on. That will only happen if I choose to extend my pending retirement another five more years though. Ugh!
 
Hence the beauty of the pic I posted Twin belt driven centrifugal superchargers on a certain someones 427 FE. Paxton, Vortech, etc. Many were made for the Foxbody/SN 94/F150's and are still around. All under the hood and, as Spike says, easier than turbos.
 
I'm going to throw in a wild card, just because. Have you considered going with a 302/5.0 engine with twin turbos? That would get you to 800hp, there are a multitude of kits out there for it already, so nothing super custom and a lot cheaper, you can get a roller cam motor, already have fuel injection systems for it, and more room in the engine bay for the turbos. I was always a supercharger fan as well, but my oldest son has a Honda 2.0 4 cyl that was built with parts, machining, guidance, by Speed Factory Racing in Tacoma Wa. and and puts down 750 hp. I have to say it's opened my eyes.
 
Thank you for the very fact based and knowledgeable responses. One of many aspects that brings me back and keeps me part of this great community. Spike, man if I could have a day in your life gazing out at roots blowers........ I honestly went into this build wanting to satisfy my life long desire for a blower motor. If I was going into this build based purely on emotion and the desire to stand out in a crowd the blower would be the only way to go. I truly appreciate your feedback and the knowledge and facts to back it up. NO denying a roots blower will get you all of the bottom end grunt these big block motors can give and will get you pretty high up in the revs before their efficiency starts to peak. At that point you have already smoked most of any competition on the street. Let add a couple more thoughts on why the needle swung towards going twin turbo. 1) the hoods on a 68 Cyclone are made out of unobtanium. They are not the same as a Torino and very prone to rusting at the hinge point and tin foil thin. If you have stubborn hinges or the smallest amount of rust in the hinge area of the hood you are done. It will bend like a chicken wing. I have one on parts car to show for it. The existing hood on my car has a uniqueness that in my opinion is hard to look past. I have another original hood safely stored in a crate if the blower option did rise to the top, but i get weak in the knees thinking about cutting a hole in it. I know eat my Wheaties. 2) in looking over the artist renderings inclusive of the blower and the lowered stance the blower just stole from the lines of the car. I will attach a picture of a Cyclone Spoiler with a blower that a contact of mine owns. It is a beautiful and menacing street machine. Just right now not the look I am going for. 3) The car will spend the first period of its life on the ISCA show scene just to see if my vision is appealing to others. It will be driven periodically, but it will not be a street racer. 4) With plans for a full chassis the entire engine bay will open up without shock towers and plans are to incorporate a Tesla power brake system to get the booster and master cylinder out of the way as well. I have spoken with Troy Trepanier about this system and he is having luck with it. I agree custom headers will come into play. In summary, if it was my heart it would be an 8:71 sticking out of the hood. Other thoughts and emotions have come more into play.

Chuck, thank you for the feedback. My builder is Blair Patrick just outside of Chattanooga. His is also an FE expert and has taken a stock block FE with stock heads to over 500hp on Engine Masters competition. I have the highest confidence in him building a 600+ hp NA motor with a stout bottom end and rotating assembly to take the boost pressure. Again, is not going to be boosted to the moon (probably less than 12 pounds) to get the numbers I am looking for.
If you are working with Blair you will definitely be OK. He is very talented. Chuck
 
I'm going to throw in a wild card, just because. Have you considered going with a 302/5.0 engine with twin turbos? That would get you to 800hp, there are a multitude of kits out there for it already, so nothing super custom and a lot cheaper, you can get a roller cam motor, already have fuel injection systems for it, and more room in the engine bay for the turbos. I was always a supercharger fan as well, but my oldest son has a Honda 2.0 4 cyl that was built with parts, machining, guidance, by Speed Factory Racing in Tacoma Wa. and and puts down 750 hp. I have to say it's opened my eyes.
You wild card is sinking in a little bit more with me. I think you are spot on about already having the the fuel injection and and a ton of turbo options. Thank you. Started looking at Gen 3 Aluminator low compression motors.
 
Here's another way of looking at supercharging,.....let's use our 351 engines for an example. Naturally aspirated, it is unlikely anyone can get 100% effecientcy from modifying their engine with big aftermarket heads, biggest valves that will fit , barely streetable large event cams, high dollar carburetion, high compression pistons, and an expensive spring and valvetrain heavy enough to control everything associated with that big hero camshaft. EVEN will all of this, most heavily modified naturally aspirated street and race engines will increase to around 90% efficient, in terms of usefull cylinder filling. Or....we can say 10% of that 351 is not of any use, making a 351 , a 315 cubic inch engine, in terms of usefull power. So, let's look at a supercharged 351, just to compare apples to apples. Most superchargers, at a street boost of 5-6 pounds of boost ( remember, we need to use pump gas), will increase the engine's effecientcy 40%,.... a race engine, on race gas , will get 100% and better, but for comparison's sakes, we'll say 40% more efficient in street boost, than the base 351,....that 40% percentage of added efficientcy makes the 351 have the power quotient of a 490 cubic inch big block engine. AND, it comes in from off-idle, on up. You don"t even need a big blower. Any of our in-house TBS low profile street blowers will put out 10 -11 lbs of boost, more than pump gas and higher static compression engines will allow. Hot rodders have been using superchargers on the street for years. The biggest expense , for some, may very well be new rear tires every once in a while....and we're not talking about "drifting".
 

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